Transcripts For CSPAN3 WTO 20240705 : vimarsana.com

Washington, d. C. This is just over an hour. Ok. Good morning, everyone. I am randy henning. I serve as the faculty chair of the International Economic Relations Program and in dean shannon haiders absence it is my privilege to welcome you to the beautiful sis atrium for our special event, global trade, the Global Commons and geopolitics. Opening observation and introduce our two speakers and turn it over to them for the conversation. This event is organized by the school of International Services International Economic Relations Program. As a celebration of the inauguration this Academic Year of its two new masters degrees. These degrees combined study in International Trade finance, political economy and Research Methods to place students in International Organizations similar to the world trade organization, Government Agencies and the private sector. The second of these two degrees is a stem degree of which i am particularly proud for its innovations. This particular event is the first of what we foresee as an annual series on Global Economic governance. Our guest speakers as you know ar wto director generale Ngozi Okonjo Iweala and never city president sylvia burwell. President burwell is the first woman to serve in this role. Prior to the au, she held two cabinet positions in the u. S. Government, health and Human Services and the director of management and budget. She held leadership positions in the bill and Melinda Gates foundation and the walmart foundation, two of the largest foundations in the world. President burwell has led the university over the last six years including through and a star pandemic and started the 500 Million Dollar change cant wait Capital Campaign to fund new efforts to support students including a brandnew student Thriving Center at the heart of campus and a use comprehensive strat and aus comprehensive strategy changemakers for a changing world. She has overseen a more than doubling of Research Funding from external organizations and under her leadership au became the first urban university in the United States to achieve Carbon Neutrality and launch the first Antiracist Research and policy center. Dr. Okonjo iweala in College Graduated magna cum laude from harvard with a degree in economics and earned a phd in regional economics. She had a 25 year career at the world bank as an economist rising to the number two position of managing director of operations. She served twice as nigerias finance minister. The first woman in that role steering the country through trade and macroeconomic reform as well as a debt restructuring and extensive institutional we organization. She briefly acted as foreign minister in 2006. In 2012, she was the first woman and african candidate to contest the presidency of the world bank group, the first genuinely contested transition for that position. Dr. Ngozi has been chair for the vexing alliance and the African Union special envoy to immobilize Financial Support for the fight against covid19. She currently cochairs the Global Commission on the economy and climate with Nicholas Stern and paul pullman. She chairs the board of the Nelson Mandela institution and is a trustee for the carnegie endowment. Among her many contributions it must be mentioned she donated her chief economist to the International Economic Relations Program as our newest faculty member. Bob has organized this event with me and i am grateful to him. Please join me in welcoming president burwell and dr. Ngozi to this conversation. Pres. Burwell thank you, professor henning. And thanks everybody for coming out this morning. It is a very busy week for her this week and we are grateful you are here today. We are going to take a trip around the world today i think it is fair to say in our beautiful atrium. We are going to take a trip around the world with someone whos breadth and depth in this issue is unparalleled. So it is going to be a real treat. We are going to have time for questions. I will watch the clock and make sure we have for your question so be thinking about that as we are having a little bit of a dialogue. I had the privilege of meeting her in the first time i think when i was at the gates foundation, early to thousands. I was working on increasing agricultural productivities for smallholder farmers as well as all the Health Issues we are working on and had the opportunity to meet you then. And then it was every issue we worked on, not just agriculture anything we were working on as a foundation and working in and on the continent of africa. We were incredible counsel and help. Our paths have crossed many times since then. It is an Incredible Opportunity today. I do want to mention we know you have over 20 Honorary Degrees from the fabulous universities around the world but your last visit here to this campus was last spring when we know you were given what you probably think it your most important Honorary Degree from american university. So we are thrilled you have come back and so appreciative. Going to start with the reason you are here this morning. You are here for the Spring Meeting for the world thank each most of the people that are here would probably be familiar that is going on. I just wanted to start with you are here at these world thank you meetings. What are the three most important objectives from where you sit now and the leadership role you have both in wto but in the World Economic system . What are the three objectives you have for these meetings . Dr. Ngozi thank you, sylvia and let me say what a delight it is. I really do feel part of american university. Every day or every other week, bob sends me some email or another to remind me. It was such a lovely ceremony for the Honorary Degree. I feel part of this. I feel like i am with family and thank you again for having me, sylvia. Your path has been absolutely amazing so it is nice to chat with you this morning. You asked me for the three main objectives of coming here. I came for the Spring Meeting but every time i come to washington i also take the opportunity to check in with the ustr if i can. Sometimes with congress. I was there two weeks ago because congress is not in session now. I did my round then. My first objective was to accomplish something which is rather incredible. Yesterday the United States deposited an instrument of acceptance of the subsidies agreement. The First Agreement on environmental sustainability ever negotiated at the wto. [applause] pres. Burwell very big. Dr. Ngozi that agreement had been negotiated to do away with 22 billion dollars in harmful subsidies encouraging overfishing of oceans and destroying ocean health. We finally got it over the finish line last june. Now my objective is to actually get implementation. We need two thirds of members to ratify and our objective is to get it all done by next february. To have the United States, early on in the game. One of the largest fishing economies sends a huge signal. Im going through to the ustr. The second objective, during the Imf World Bank meeting you also have a meeting of the g20 finance ministers. Those are going on in parallel. During this time of very tense geopolitical, this geopolitical tension you referred to which is not Getting Better on the whole last week. I felt the u. S. And china tensions were difficult and may not be Getting Better anytime soon. One of my objectives is to remind the g20 finance ministers and all the other finance ministers and central bankers that are here that there are two important things we need to remember. One, we hope these geopolitical tensions will not manifest in fragmentation of world trade. We hear a lot about decoupling different trading blocs and some of that may happen but we need balance. If the world fragments into trading blocs, the losses to both developed and developing countries but in particular developing countries is huge. Having that conversation that we need to keep in mind that fragmentation will be costly to the world economy, we should not throw the baby with the bathwater. We should not forget that trade integration has helped the world to achieve great poverty reduction, improvement in Living Standards and we know it did not do everything. Some people were left behind but we need to fix that. Not throw away the system should that is a very important objectives i would like to put across with these finance ministers. We have shown that from the wto standpoint if we decoupled into two blocks, 5 loss in global gdp in the long term. That is huge. I think my third objectives is through what i have to say is to remind everybody that the multilateral trading system is a Global Public good. I have termed at that. It is a Global Public good. We need multilateralism to solve some problems. So even as we have global geopolitical tensions, even as we have strategic competition, we must remember we also need strategic cooperation to solve Climate Change and all the other issues of the global problems. Pres. Burwell thank you so much and we are going to go into those a little more. Before we do that, we started with the present. Im going to go back a little bit to your childhood in nigeria. Can you talk a little bit about how your childhood in nigeria impacts what you do today . Dr. Ngozi thank you. I think my childhood i was very fortunate to be brought up by first my grandmother until i was almost nine. My parents were studying abroad. They were on scholarship in germany so they could not take me. They did not have enough money so they left me with my grandmother who was a loving and very disciplined person. But she was also about community. And learning life was not about yourself but about how you serve your community. It was very important. Learning skills very early in life. I learned how to cook by the time i was eight years old. And to make sure i helped with the house. All those things have influenced who i am. My parents came back and both of them became University Academics by the way. I think that continuation of the theme of service, education is not about yourself. It is about what you can use it to do for others. Really continued with my parents and in particular my father who thought his daughters in particular could do and should do everything mi5 brothers too mi5 brothers too. That has led me to a career of service both nationally and internationally and into the wto. For me the question i always ask myself in any environment is, how is it going to help others . If it will serve others and make a difference, than i am in. If it will not, i am not excited about it. Pres. Burwell that is great and i hope that is inspiring to all of our students who are here and to our faculty and staff and the whole community. Thank you because as we think about the school of International Service, we are not a school of international relations. We are a school of International Service because we deeply believe what you just said in terms of why do you do it and the incredible thing is in terms of assignments, you get assigned to anything and everything because of the breadth and depth of your talent and skills. You can help and serve in so many ways and have. Im going to go from childhood to be in finance minister in nigeria. When you were in when you were the finance minister of the country and that is when we first met, at that time, nigeria sometimes was known for some challenges. Challenges around issues of corruption. Challenges around the issues of having Natural Resources and what that means in terms of both the countrys economy as well as issues of equity in the country. Those were issues you were dealing with them. Those issues seem to be corruption, other resource issues. Seemed to spread around the world including some might even say right here at home. As you think about how you worked on those issues then, what lessons would you give our students and all of us in terms of thinking about those issues and working on them whether it is in your own home country or internationally in global setting . Dr. Ngozi thank you. That is a very challenging question. But when you think about those issues, the word reform comes into your mind. Because in order to solve these issues, you have to reform certain institutions. You have to change certain policies. And the way business is done. The biggest thing you need to focus on is when you reform and you may change, there are winners and there are losers. If you dont bear that in mind, you are going to get into trouble so you have to think through the reforms you are doing and ask yourself who are the winners. Because you have to if they are very difficult to reform, make sure the winners understand they are winners. And that they actually back the reforms because the losers are going to be very loud and they are going to do things that maybe trying their best to affect those reforms. That is one lesson i learned. Not just to go into a blind. Winners and losers is very important. Sometimes you may try to coax the losers to believe that ultimately they win which is the case. It is not that they are going to lose in the long term should but since they are making money off of something and are going to lose in the short term they fight so you need to coax them that this reform ultimately will benefit everybody and their interest is in it. But it is difficult. That is why i said forget the winners because they will be the ones who will back you. There will be silent people who dont understand whether they are winners or losers. Communicate the reforms and why they are important and what it is going to do to change the trajectory for the country and for people individually. You have to explain to those people why they must go through a tough time to get to the good time. That is the big challenge that i think applies everywhere. We are in very difficult times now. In country after country, you find tremendous polarization. A lot of populism. Protectionism is creeping in. It is unprecedented in my view what we are seeing now. Got to find means if you are a policymaker of trying to explain to people whatever you are trying to do is for the benefit of all. Its not for one segment or another, you have to find out those people who have been left behind. Remember i referred to the fact that globalization the multilateral system, left some people behind. You have to find a way to be inclusive of them now. If you do not include them or you dont explain that you are trying to be inclusive, you will continue to have the sentiment which divides and that doesnt help any country or any economy. Host thank you and that answer you just gave and one of your objectives about communicating trade as a Global Public good, bring that together with the next question. I have worked on nasa in the clinton years in terms of trade agreements. I worked on the accession of china to the wto. I spent time on that issue. I worked with my colleague on the tpp which was the agreement we got, we just couldnt get it through the congress. All of that and that evolution and what you are talking about in terms of the polarization especially in the area of trade, here in the u. S. , trade has become even more controversial than the times that i worked on it. You were talking about that communicating about as a public good. Do you believe there is still consensus in the u. S. That market opening and multilateralism and trade are the way to go . How do you think about where we are in terms of that . I know you were talking about some of the solutions, the communications and those sorts of things. We could spend some more time, but do you think we are at a place where its no longer a dominant view so we have to maybe think differently about how we communicate . To think different layabout these pieces and parts . Dir. Okonjoiweala i absolutely do. After talking to people on the hill, to congresspeople, in spite of perhaps these views the trade may not be the best liberalizing open trading system. May not be to the interest of the country, they still listen. By far and away, that is not the consensus anymore. If feel like that consensus is gone. People are very focused some of them focused on domestic issues. Not really out internationally. There is a bit of article about this. We used to be his colleagues at the Peterson Institute, a very nice article. He used to be a Deputy Director general but the Peterson Institute does some really nice work and analysis on some of these issues. They really did lay out that consensus is no longer there. The issue is this is the throwing out of the baby with the bathwater that i was talking about. If the multilateral trading system did not exist, if the wto did not exist, the opportunity cost of not having it would be so shoot, you would have to reinvent it. You need the multilateral trading system and i want to back up and say two things. First, some of the numbers. The geopolitics is stuff. Tough. The tensions are high. I want to remind people that as of now, 75 of world trade still takes place on wto terms that were negotiated long ago. The World Trading system is still operating on that basis now. Number two, world trade numbers are at an alltime high. We have 31 trillion in world trade that is going on and 25 trillion in goods, 7 trillion in services. The numbers are saying that maybe the rhetoric is a little bit ahead of the actual numbers. I can say that for you u. S. , china trade. 690 billion. Thats the prepandemic peak that we saw. The same with the eu, 900 billion in eu china trade. Im giving you these numbers to say that the rhetoric is a little bit ahead of the actual numbers, but does that mean we should be sanguine . The answer is no. The numbers are showing that consumers and businesses are still pursuing trade within the World Trading system. These trade numbers are based on investment that were made before. My fear is that the rhetoric might lead us to switching investments in such a way that we move toward that fragmentation i talked about. We see trade slowing, the growth is slowing. Beneath some of those numbers, you can see changes in patterns for certain sectors between the u. S. And china trade is changing and is diminishing in those sectors. When need to look through the numbers in order to understand that we are seeing worrying signs. Worrying signs in trade. That is what i think we should focus on. To say how do we get the balance . How do we get those who are worried that their unfair practice and this comes to the china issue, the reason the rhetoric and tension is high at least on the trade side is the feeling that some members say china maybe pursue practices in subsidizing their enterprises that may go against a level Playing Field at the wto supports. If you talk to china, china will tell you that they are also concerned that some of the types of subsidies including agricultural subsidies may also be going against a level Playing Field that some of the countries in the west are doing. Wto members especially the large and developing countries, they all have complaints about level Playing Field issues. Let me end by saying let us not let our sentiments run away with the actual facts. We are working now to look at layout effects on subsidies across the board. From the wto, we have joined with the world bank, imf, oecd. All of these International Organizations look at this issue and try to get the facts on the table so that we can begin a conversation that can actually lead us to do away with the suspicions and restore the balance of how trade is being seen and perceived. Host thank you and this will be my last question. We have microphones if you all have questions. You just talked about getting the facts and helping people understand the fact which there are some issues about whether that still works, but for now lets assume that it does. In terms of a way to make progress. One of the issues we have not touched on is in this divide that has occurred in our country where weve moved to a place where the idea of multilateralism in trade is no longer a majority feeling we have from the right and the left joining together in their opposition to issues of trade sometimes, one of the things that gets confused is the impact of technology. Many people who as you said there are has an havenots and some of the agreements, some groups of people were not included as much. Some in the countries around the world. Part of the impact is technology. As much as trade. Can you speak about how you as you are trying to help people understand trade as a Global Public good, how do you integrate this Technology Point in terms of getting people to understand some of the facts around some of the difficulties and changes are more related to technology than to trade . Dir. Okonjoiweala thank you so much that is such an important factor that is often not recognized and trade is unfairly blamed for things that it is not responsible for. Technological change, if you look a Certain Industries lets take coal mining for example. You go to west virginia, many of the changes there and why people are out of jobs, its not really about any trade, its about to elegy. That field and the changes and the fact that perhaps the u. S. May not be spending or paying as much attention to active labor market policies. That it should be doing, it should be respecting more. I think some of the scandinavian countries spend up to 1 or 2 of gdp on these issues. I mean trying to make sure that those who are thrown out of jobs are retrained, reskilled, ringing back some other types of jobs to the areas that they are in. Because in economic theory, some migrate to where they are but others do not because they have cultural ties. So you can bring new jobs to where they are. Can you reskilled, can you spend the u. S. Spends much less than 1 of gdp. I dont have exact number. Designed to retrain people much less than other countries. If you combine that, the people begin to feel its because my job has been taken away. Am i saying that some manufacturing jobs were not taken away because of competition . Not saying that. But youre absently right that some of the technological changes in industry is often ignored. The amount of consumer welfare, cheaper goods coming in and the fact that poor people have access to these less expensive goods is often forgotten. If you were to walk into walmart or kmart or any of the stores that have these lovely cotton things, i love cotton. You can find it at reasonable prices and other house hold goods. These are all because of the integration of trade and supply chains that we have. We mustnt forget that. If we we also expose ourselves to risk. Look what happened with baby formula. When you reach the supply chains and there is an event, theres a risk. The problem was solved by opening up an alliance of suppliers to come from elsewhere. Trade, i want to just end this question by saying trade is a tool for managing resilience and risk. This is why ultimately i am so grateful to people on the hill because despite them being skeptical, there is a realization that this is the case. When i was try to explain and communicate ultimately the question is let us try to reform those aspects that dont work. We dont throw away the baby with the bathwater. You need trade. One in five governments consumed in the world is traded. If you dont have trade, people are going to go hungry. Host lets think about that and do we have any questions . If we do, can people get to the microphones so we can do these questions . Thank you so much. We have two microphones. I can go back and forth. Why dont we start over here if you could please introduce yourselves and tell folks your affiliation. We would love to hear that before you ask your question. Thank you. I teach at the law school. Ive been teaching wto law for the past 26 years. We had a program at the wto since 2011. We have a three year hiatus but they are restarting the summer. World intellectual property organization. I wanted to clarify. One thing i wanted to talk to you about is if the wto, you said if it doesnt exist we would have to recreate it. As a lawyer, i think there is a lot that the wto does that only the wto can do that is not easy for the world to understand. In the last 50 years we have seen the uprise of the ministry of state. The work that is done is bringing together regulatory convergence at the wto. Even we saw it with the pandemic leading a repository of the laws and restrictions. A lot of people are sang the pandemic should be at the wto not the w. H. O. I am keen for that to be understood and that role to be strengthened because it is not in the general conversations about trade, the wto is more, it is an actual convene or of regulators. The regulator mentality is different than the trade negotiator. These two are converging. Regulators tend to be more territorial and negotiators they are bargaining. For me, i am interested in helping and working. As someone who is interested in world peace and building a Better Future for all of us, the role of the wto i think is key. Communicating that and strengthening that role of the wto, im thinking about what your thoughts are . Dir. Okonjoiweala very quickly because i know a lot of people are waiting, absolutely well stated. There are a lot of things that go on at the wto that are not well known. Standardsetting is critical. We have committees, i think we are the only place in the world where you have members who can come together to actually discuss differences in standards and how we harmonize those products and goods and services. People dont know this. Just in short, there is a lot of work technical barriers to trade. Having a place where members can come and talk about what are the other things impeding trade that the ordinary person i not be thinking about. These are things that are going on at the wto the people dont know. Thank you and we are trying to mitigate better. The one thing we are trying to communicate is people dont even understand the purpose of the wto. Especially younger people who really think this organization written in the preamble it says that the purpose is to enhance Living Standards, help create employment, and support sustainable development. That is the reason why i wanted to go to the wto. There could be nothing more mobile than that. How we got away from communicating that the wto is about people and does so many other things is one of the challenges that i have to reverse this image, thank you. Host lets take two questions. Im a visitor here. I used to work in my question is about gender. What can trade policy do for gender . Its an important question because we see for instance in afghanistan, the economy is collapsing because they have sent all their women home and taking away their jobs. Yet in 70 countries, you say trade the rising tide lifts all boats but the boats owned by women are small and they have leaks. The boats owned by men are bigger and they float higher. What can policy do for gender since it is so often a domestic policy . Dir. Okonjoiweala thank you very much this is one of my passions. I have nicole in my gender office with me. I am so keen on seeing how trade can empower women. We found out through research jointly done with the wto and world bank, women in business that export generally earn twice as much as those who sell domestically. What if we could, you know its smes that create jobs. The issue is how can we help get more women and enterprises onto regional and global value chains . That will improve their earnings and i have seen the wto and the world International Trade center intervene on supply chain supplyside issues. Its not just agreement but we have the ability to help get women access to markets, improve the quality of their products, help them understand the technical standards they have to meet to break into certain markets. Explain to them how to get access to trade finance. This is what we have to do. We are trying to increase our ability to do that at the wto including with the International Trade center. We are working night and day. We have 129 members who are carrying on their dialogue on women in trade as we speak. With a view of trying to see whether we can make federal rules and a better environment for women. When i was at walmart we worked on womens empowerment. We work to source 1 million from womenowned businesses. All of the things you said were the Critical Path issues that we had to knock down to get there. It is the financing issues, all of those issues. When you do that and you are actually a business, women creating products, who does all the purchasing . You create a virtual cycle. When you do it and tap into the things that are working. Partnering with the private sector to get it done, because thats where those women businesses can all grow. Dir. Okonjoiweala just to mention the Digital Economy is liberating women. Making it more possible for them to get into the value chain. Host that is exactly how we did it because the women could do it. We did it online. We did sales from around the world online. Its an incredible part of how to get this work. Next question. Thank you for coming to speak to us. My question is in regard to the United States call for reform to the wto appeals. I picked this story up, i am also a u. S. Foreignpolicy grad student and an internet American Academy of diplomacy. I picked up the story in january about the u. S. Wanting to reform the appeals bench. My question is, has there been any progress on that issue or, and also do you feel that there could be some areas to form within that process . Dir. Okonjoiweala a very good question. One of the biggest reform challenges is to reform the dispute resolution system. It is partially paralyzed during the trumpet administration. It blocked the election of new appellate judges because the u. S. Had criticisms of the system. Some of them valid. The issue is now there is progress. I want to commend the u. S. Because it has been carrying on some formal dialogue and discussions with other members to find out what they think and it is important to do that because developing countries also have issues. Its not only the u. S. That has issues with her system. Weve actually moved to a second phase where there is data that is now leading these discussions and the hope is that eventually, they will lead to a place where we have proposals then eventually negotiations. Theres a deadline to reform the dispute resolution system by 2024 that was agreed to in june. Were sing some progress and its one of the deliverables we have. Hello i am first year master student. What goals do you have for the wto to bring trade governance and Climate Governance cooperation together especially considering the different challenges for developed and developing countries . Dir. Okonjoiweala people view trade and the wto as part of the problem for Climate Change. Because of the logistics of trade. The shipping industry contributes about 7 of carbon emissions. Aviation maybe 3 . Numbers like that. People often think of that come but they dont think of trade and the wto as part of the solution. It squarely is. When i think about that and what role do i see the wto playing and trade, i tell people that we could not solve we cannot get to w 50 wto. Think about the diffusion of technology works. How does it get from one place to the other . How do you get economies of scale in its use . How developing countries get there . It happens through trade. If you didnt have trade, you could not get these technologies from where they are made to where they are used. You couldnt get this so it would set us back. Think about it, trade is another tool. Adaptation to where you have a climate event, how do you recover . How do you get the goods and services you need to recover . It is through trade. Trade is a huge part of the solution. I think another thing we could do is to see how we can lower the cost of some environmental goods and services that could be critical to get to net zero by having environmental goods and Services Agreement negotiated at the wto. There was an attempt to do this, it was shelved in 2016 because the goods then simply the benefit we can set that and start this exercise, i think that would be a contribution. Theyre so many ways its so exciting to think about how trade and the wto can be part of the zero. Host i think we have time for one another. Dir. Okonjoiweala maybe we take all the questions then i try. Host we are going to take them all quickly. We will do these last six questions. Lets do three over here, three over here then we will answer those and wrap up. Good morning. I am from cambodia. [indiscernible] we work a lot with small and medium businesses to scale up into formal economy. You have been discussing a lot about genders, how women can address the threats. I want to know what are the supporting systems from the wto to help more women led business from developing countries to accept the Global Market . I am an International Student from chile. A lot of my cousins we talk about coins and exchange rates. [indiscernible] my main question is when you hear the stories from your perspective, is that that worries you . Do you take the next step forward and they become more of a thing and what are the main consequences or concerns that you have or is it a National Part of trade . [indiscernible] [indiscernible] when you hear like india trying to trade in rubies or someone else trying to create a new currency. What are your thoughts . It is a blessing to be here with you. When i was in graduate school at princeton in one of my classes, our professor made us right for our final a review of your book reforming on reform rubble. When i learned i was coming to this session, i dug through six years of archives to find that essay [laughter] i printed a copy for you and im good to give it to you to honor you and thank you for your example. [applause] ive had the chance to learn about how to change nigeria from a nigerian at a place like princeton would be something i would cherish for my life. Now for my question. [laughter] i recently got engaged to my partner and i know that i have a future in nigerias Public Service. My question is how do you hold together . How do you be distinctive in the president s cabinet and be a distinctive partner at home and parent . I need those lessons. Im thinking about marriage and Public Service in my future. I need tactics [laughter] to make sure i succeed in the federal government and i succeed in my family. Host great question. [applause] hand us the paper and we will go over here and take this question. Thank you that is wonderful. I am doug with politico. My question has to do with the appellate body. Basically, what is your sense of the membership in terms of what sort of solution you think they could support . There is a perception that the u. S. Just wants to do away with the appellate body and maybe replace it with some sort of voluntary system that would be used on a casebycase basis, but there would be no standing appellate body. Do you think that is something the membership could get on board with . Host thank you. It is a pleasure to have you here. My question is regarding Raw Materials which have become indispensable in modernday technology. It is used, they are used all the way from mobile phones to lasers. When we are talking about geo comments, it is your graphical distribution is skewed in favor of very few countries. Is there any debate dialogue or deliberation going on to regulate more equitable distribution of the rare earth elements . Host thank you and we will take this last question. Dir. Okonjoiweala hello is wonderful to hear from you. I am concerned about issues relating to developing countries. One of those is indonesia recently brought a case that you brought the case against and in asia indonesia to the wto and the case was ruled for the eu and indonesia is appealing it. The case relates to indonesia wanting to hold onto its nickel, process it and country and create ev batteries. So that they can climb up the chain supply to a higher value rather than exporting cheap then importing expensive. The second part of the question is more of a hypothetical. I know there is a researcher in europe that has looked at this and we have this commodity that we all want to get off of, oil. There is a cartel that control has a lot of influence on the price of that oil and there is an agreement that that commodity is bought in u. S. Dollars. That is a very difficult kind of handicap for many developing countries. They have to get the dollars, then they have to deal with wherever the price goes. What would happen if a group of developing countries came to the wto and brought a case against opec cartel . Host i said we would travel around the world and we certainly are. Dir. Okonjoiweala what a group of questions. Very interesting. Very quickly on the issue from the cambodian colleague on support systems for women, i spoke a bit about that. There are two ways we want to help women. One is to see how within our agreements we can mainstream gender from agreements that take into account the role of women and we have a new called the mastic regulation trying to do away with bureaucracy in the Services Trade and thats the first one where we have put in a provision making sure that women have equal opportunity and we would like to see more. Dont have enough, but that is one way. On the support system, these are supplyside issues. What can we do practically to help women cross those barriers that we spoke about . International trade center which is 50 owned by the wto does that work. I have to tell you what i saw them do in my own country with a group of women that i didnt know before i became director general, a group of Women Producers trying to break into the market but they could not because they did not meet the policy standards for sanitary issues. The itc and wto, we also have a fund, the Standard Development but we worked with them to get them to those standards. The pride i have is that today, their product has been exported into your from and it is being used in italy to make the beautiful cream. That is that kind of intervention that we have to try and do more. It requires resources, but we can do those things. Onchile, this is a hot topic on the issue of that is away from trading the dollar or using the dollar, the prime currency in the world and introduce another currency. It would take a lot of doing because the dollar is so deeply ingrained as International Currency of reference. However, you see countries being beginning to make agreements with each other. Original group for existent for instance, you see direct agreements between countries could be india and russia. It is beginning to happen and i think it will increase. The reason i say this is talking to policymakers who sense that maybe trading in the dollar, it can become i dont know what word to use, like a punitive, there can be punishments levied and so you see countries thinking of how do we move away from total dependence on this and other countries . It will take a lot of doing, but i do see thinking going in that direction. Host the issue of the u. S. Default and we cant pay our debt, it will accelerate this change. It will be one of the arguments. Dir. Okonjoiweala there are pressures that are emerging and i think the u. S. Needs to balance this because being the reserve currency of the world is a huge privilege. Im going to read your essay. There you are. You know that if your book is recommended to review in class, maybe you done something. Your question is about life. How do you hold it together . How do you balance your family and your work. It is good to get asked by a man not a woman. Typically it is always the women who say how do white that shows that you know that you have to be a 5050 person with your partner. There is no perfect answer. I want to quote someone in my most recent book on women and leadership. We interviewed her and we act hurt this question as one of the only two women in the world to have a baby in office, we asked her how do you balance this is a question many women have. She says i dont balance. I just make it work. There is no perfect answer or we could have cloned data and sold it. What i have to tell you is this. First of all, your private life. You need a partner who understands that what you do matters and you understand that what he or she does matters and you both support each other. And you both share equally. Thats the only way its going to work. You need a conversation about that. I tell young people who are getting married, i tell them thinking im going to change this person, no have a conversation for you get into that marriage about what you care about and what they care about and have an understanding. You are nigerian. This is one of the most interesting countries in the world. The most difficult probably chaotic in many ways but it is also one of the most interesting. I always say to people whenever i step into my country, i get so excited about it. People are not going to say, many people come from the diaspora thinking their people waiting to welcome them with open arms and crown them for coming back. No, they are not rent to do that. They are going to say come back and tell me what to do. You have to be humble. You have to show you know what is happening on the ground. And he will grounded. But have some principles. Principles of operation because there will be many pleasures and temptations. Have the courage of your conviction. Thank you. Quickly, doug asked about the sense of the other members. Where is doug . Hello. Sense of the membership. It is going to be quite a tough conversation. Thats what im sensing. What i sensed from the other members is that they still want a twotiered system. Let me step back and say that some of the criticisms made by the u. S. I think are valid and we need to recognize that. There is no reason why they say it should take more than 90 days to give rulings that was originally mandated and it goes into years, that may be because cases are getting more complicated and sophisticated. We can do something about this. Overreach, yes maybe we need to look at some of that. Those are valid criticisms. Other members, the system is not easy to access. But there is a strong desire amongst most of the membership for a twotiered system. The upper led body recreated the way it was before, not sure. Can there be ways to have twotiered system that is somewhat different and more creative maybe. I sense more openness now to discuss and that on all sides than i did before. I think maybe a few months ago, members would say the appellate body. I sense now more openness to discussing other ways whether it will be what you said i dont know. Its going to be a very tough conversation, but we need to go there. On the rare earth. Actually, the wto its a very good question because this is all the rage now. Theres a concentration where they are found and processed. China does a lot of processing as well as it also has a lot of these where earth. For the wto to look at some of the numbers, it shows the concentration from the point of view of china is diminishing. I think with these where earth being so much in demand, more more countries are exploring more places are finding they do have these where earth. Sweden recently i think there was some they found they had some. Chile, drc. Any regulation of that, im not sure the wto is the right body for that. We can monitor the concentration of where these things are and how that is changing over time. And share that information with our members because that helps to release and reduce tension amongst members that certain members are cornering the market. We will do that, but the regulation is really im not sure this is part of what we are cut out to do. The uks. The eu case against indonesia. I cant really comment on cases, im sorry im not trying to dodge it but im not allowed to. The issue about oil and the cartel, can they bring a case at the wto . Im trying to see how you could formulate that case. Whether the wto is the right place to do that. This is an issue of competition. I will have to reflect on it, i dont have an answer for you. I dont know the and against which agreement we would have to judge this. Its the cartel, so you can say its anticompetitive. Maybe this is a reason to been the case but i just dont know on this one. A case against opec by a developing country. It would be interesting. [laughter] host a huge thank you to you. Please join me in thanking our guest. Thank you so much. Im going to ask the professors, as you and i step right beside that picture because we have a special thing to do and we want to get you out on time. We are going to walk right off the stage over here to the special cover. Professor, please,. We are going to unveil a portrait that will be home right here. [applause] [applause] is beautiful, thank you so much. This photo will go on the wall of fame here. We look forward to continuing this conversation with you at a future time. We will have other events here in the atrium on Global Governance in the future. For now, i will close this session and ask you to acknowledge them one more time with around applause. [applause] [applause]