States from historian Ellen Harrington director of the German Film Institute. Last week our panelists debated the me to movement and its global effects. This time theyll tackle the sign of selfdetermination. For a symbol of oppression. What i say is that as a woman you should be free to do whatever you want to do with your body if you want to or his job you should be free not to wear it if you dont want to want to wear a hijab you should be supported in order not to wear it and whats going on for example now in iran is very interesting because women are protesting in the street to. Protest against the fact that the job is is that is mandatory and you even see the man with his job supporting their non he job the sisters in their right not to wear it and thats something i tried shes very make really make clear because there is something that. Very patronizing when you see a woman who has a huge job and you say you know to me feminism means to be uncovered any comments on this they have to put before we start you know. Defending the right of women to wear the veil let us ask ourselves and ask them what i think forced to wear the veil more the change shoes to wear that my point is to say that muslim women are not a monolith if you wear a hijab in france it doesnt have the same meaning as as you wearing ensoul every iraqi army is i think its very interesting you know india has the second largest Muslim Population in the world after indonesia and muslim women in india are covered and not covered and you know address in any which way they please there is hardly any place in the country where there is pressure but there is a very interesting way in which muslim women are claiming feminism so im not as claiming feminism from within religion and im not as negative or as pessimistic as you are about even saudi women being able to drive because i think one thing is what the state gives you but the other is what comes out from the ground and what women fight for and even a small write like that can actually be quite empowering to the women and one can dismiss what that means some of the struggles of muslim women in india have been to reclaim muslim shrines which they wanted to be able to visit which were only open to men and they won that battle but you know i want to come back briefly to what we began with the need to movement and the point that both of you were making which is about how you get to see in the media the high profile actors in this actually to me the movement against Sexual Violence which is embodied partly in the me too movement is a really important one. Divide because it has the potential to link the Womens Movement worldwide in a way that many issues have not done in recent years we have been very divided on many of our issues heres something that links us all together but we have to remember and the media since we are talking in a media house with the media have to remember that you cant only look at the big stories you have to look at the smaller stories and the fact that there is so much focus on me too in the United States and with in hollywood but you forget Everything Else thats happening across the world is to mean symbolic of the fact that its a white woman led movement and black women are forgotten in it the fact that arab women have disappeared from it and the fact that things that are happening in our countries are just completely invisible including the fact that everywhere in the world women are stepping out and claiming public spaces much more than they were before and thats really threatening. The United States clearly the whole me to end times that movement was generated by celebrity but its actually had a fantastic trickle down effect theres been really millions of people empowered and also just the sheer outrage actually you know people in the United States are really really angry right now because the country really is being run by a massage nest thank you very much allen for that comment obviously. Id like to get to the situation in india where women are also fighting not only gender battles but also issues of class and caste and poverty and so on a return to your statement the statement i opened with about you with the indian Womens Movement here in the west are our perception of india is obviously highly polarized. On the one hand you mentioned bollywood romantic exaggerated cliches but then on the other hand the shocking into. Since of rape. What can you tell us there are two to kind of give us a more differentiated view of the reality of women in india that you see well i think its actually its unfortunate that the image of india that gets projected is either a terribly spiritual country which is not a very materialistic in many ways or of a country thats terribly violent towards its towards its women and this is not to say violence does not exist but it is also a country which is actually a fantastically country full of opportunities for women where women have really reached the top in many ways without any family backing to the you know the entire Banking Industry is headed by women weve had extremely powerful politicians i mean this any number of things and its again one has to look at things in a new onst way if you look at Sexual Violence statistically in the world and if you look at un statistics on the rate four hundred thousand people you would be surprised to know that india is one point two on that scale the United States is twenty seven point eight the u. K. Is twenty eight point something sweden is sixty three south africa its one twenty im just citing the statistics that i remember so what is it about india that creates this image and i think there its a very complicated picture but partly i think those of us whove been involved in the Womens Movement are to blame because we have kept the issue of Sexual Violence towards women on the public agenda we will not let it go off the agenda because we want changes and we wanted to be addressed and the media has sided with us in very interesting ways so every case gets into the papers i dont want to take a nationalistic style. And pretend that we are great were not but i think you are much more complicated and i think that we need to understand also saw where women are placed on should really and all of the kinds of beliefs and things which become sedimented over tarim and which become ways of imposing certain expected behaviors on women and bollywood fed into this right up to the gills until recently when with the entry of new young women directors it began to change and now youre getting these amazing films which are made by women directors produced by women which started smelling female story of syria of humor there is a recent film needed the wedding which is about really womens sexual lives and its amazing that which brings me to the question of how artistic creation can actually help to break down stereotypes well talk about that just in one second but first were going to look at an exhibition of indian Women Artists and its currently happening involves bob lets talk. Bracelets fired into bricks but not just ordinary bracelets they all come from violated women deaf room is an installation by indian feminist artist batik here next to it six women bodies made of plaster of sex workers and calcutta the exhibition facing india involved is showing works by six young indian artists project at parties use the refrigerator as a symbolic setting the kitchen is ascribed to women in india with strict hierarchies and rules people from the all cost conscious enter into a kitchen of a higher cost. All to live in if they have menstruation happening theyre not supposed to enter kitchens. The central theme of this show borders and their dissolution as a need to sense works for mark to come. Lection of replicated organs and team is a strong projection of the dividing lines between castes ethnic groups and genders. The cultural scene womens position in the cultural scene in india in general young Women Artists in india are breaking taboos quite amazingly on issues of sexuality on issues of religion and doing some really fascinating work and i think a lot of young women are breaking these cultural stereotypes and creating new and different cultures which will not be silenced and i think what becomes worrying and really dangerous you spoke of religion is when religion combines with political. And fundamentalism to impose cultural taboos on berman and thats happening in india now and its very scary even in the United States i mean if you think about it are the radical of right radical religion radical islam today is what this is what i always say and you think about it the right is not pro women its not pro choice its not pro freedom its very oppressive definitely i would say that there is a tendency even in the west towards this you know backlash were yeah i guess that ive got out of morals that you know. Im very interested in the for that you have some women who are claiming their religion to find sources in religion to true and power themselves so thats interesting that they wouldnt. Give the religion away in the hands of men but saying no we we have to claim it and to say that it has been interpreted for centuries for even you know more than centuries by men and now if we read the whole history we can have a feeling for minister female interpretation of it and be at the center of. Its history ellen you know i think theres really no lack of womens artistic output in creativity its really i think an issue of the gatekeepers and when museums open their minds up to exploring different kinds of artistic expression looking for new artists you know its a tremendously important thing and its interesting now coming to germany when i was named director of this of the dr phil museum in january there was a story in our net news this year theres eight women not been whove been named directors of german museums its a record but the headline was still a Glass Ceiling because all of the women running museums are underpaid i think getting people into these gate keeper positions in every community in every Artistic Organization will change the way that people are encouraged and inspired and who gets access to telling their stories because its really about who is driving the narrative whos in charge of telling their story but who are the gatekeepers of religion they are men it is a folk its a shame that pleases so even if you try whatever you can in order to make reinterpretation that to say this is wrong and you are not tried and i can do whatever i want there will still insist on putting their own stories out there and not in order not to give you the power that you are claiming so its actually about power its about who are the gatekeepers not just in film or in culture its everywhere who are the gatekeepers of thats of this of this world in politics its the same you know you can i like in my country there are now six deputies out of one hundred twenty eight deputies six deputies are women but unless we have more women in politics we wont be able to have the laws that we are fighting for still in saudi arabia and other places it is the men who are giving you what is your own right who would say that this is bad. Well there are no. There is anything. You know i know i want to just add one thing its not only about power of course it is but it is also about strategy so if you are in a position of powerlessness and if you can only claim power in a very limited way at least you must try to do back which is what is happening and i think also i want to suggest also to you ellen can we maybe rethink this whole question of the Glass Ceiling because it seems to me that the Glass Ceiling is almost i mean its always ever articulated in terms of money because who was earning the larger amount of money was getting to the top but in many professions like yours like mine many others women are the ones who are controlling the content they are the ones who are so in publishing in india for example all the heads of all the editorial heads of women and im pretty sure this is the case in many places in the world all the c. E. O. s are men because earn the money but actually whats more important cash or taught and ideas and in that i think weve cracked that Glass Ceiling well theyre going to add something about the fact that i think that being an activist acting for equality and project is not asking for justice is just you know getting it taking any its clearly a second sticking so its challenging the structural problem would give you just a sigh i think just silence you know to stance you and i love actually drive and to look good and to look good but unfortunately many women are and im not i mean again i dont want to be the same mystic but twenty many women are easily silence because of different factors im talking about you know being intimidated into into staying silent or the social pressure to just dont want to make a big fuss about it dont want to make a scandal out. Its all of these things i mean ill bet you havent heard that but i have no i have its true but many im not and im simply saying turn your focus yes focus on the ones who was speaking out but no i would like to poke at those who are not speaking up in order to make them speak up so thats i think you are doing very. Well im just going to go back to what youre saying and just the gender equality notion that you know theres a scale of economy in every industry in artistic production in publishing or the film business and what i would advocate is that if youre doing the same job you should just be paid the same and of course thats become a big issue circling back to me too when times up is its not just access to those jobs its if youre doing the same job are you actually being paid the same and theres been some scandalous numbers coming out about female and male costars in you know american Film Productions and its shaming people and its i really have to say that the process of bringing this to light and bringing people out you know calling them out is very very effective i dont think that if it werent for the shame of some of these high profile media figures being accused in such a public way and all their friends and neighbors and their families know exactly what they did that shame is quite powerful and its also happening as far as not it may have been a shady has been you know we have some access to employment and access to equal pay that gets us a seat at the table on that means that we are we are be represented in a broader way in the culture so you are sitting at the head of the table at the German Film Institute just tell us what are your next projects what how has the discussion everything were talking about affected how you plan to. Conduct these five years of your first contract will women and womens representation in film be an issue for you oh absolutely and in fact ive inherited. An institution that was already very focused on that and my previous directly to previous director was a woman and there are strong women in all of the you know Department Heads of that institution so were screening womens films on a regular basis theres tremendous Film Festival activity where womens voices are being front and center and the content of our exhibitions and the content of our collections is trying to overcome the historical gap i mean often people say there arent enough you know high profile talented women filmmakers to elect into the academy for example they need to be given that opportunity and you need to find young filmmakers and you need to encourage mid career filmmakers because many many artists make a movie and then they dont end up getting another chance that ten years can go by before another project gets made so its finding filmmakers at every stage of their career and giving them a public forum inviting them to speak to the audiences thats a very fundamental approach to also sharing that world cultures our museum is involved in showing film from every corner of the globe and thats a major major project for us is to make sure were not only focused you know on one nationality or you know one more motive expression. Ok. Youve made the move into politics which i mentioned earlier and you talking now about this is the difference in culture or politics has your other goals changed in what way have they changed and is there more acceptance for what youre bringing for the open and well its not thats my goal is have to question ive been fighting for womens rights and human rights in general because its also to me its i mean feminism includes everything its about being a human being its about fighting for equal rights and opportunities for everyone i mean. No matter what your race or sexuality or Sexual Orientation etc its and. This is very i mean all these matters all these issues are very much linked in and my part of the world and eleven are so fighting for freedom of expression and fighting for equal rights as much as fighting for the right of it for education for all kids not just the rich kids get to go and get a good education and this is also part of the problem because you know the masses are not having the opportunity to be aware to be a light and just have what they need to have in order to work their minds all of these push me to go into politics but to me its like continue to with what i have been doing so far and i will never stop being a writer. Thats good to hear from come over to you ok whats next on your agenda and in the column is incredibly complex so i have i have a documentary in the pie but im still working on the following steps of a book that i coauthored with her its a picture book that i coauthored with her photographer which name is afro which is picture of what i did that displays. People from women from african descent with natural afro hair because its something we didnt have a chance to speak about beauty standards but atom for something that oppressed women all women and especially women that are very far from the why due to standards and the yes yes exactly so we have interviewed a hundred more than one hundred one hundred forty. People women from african descent about how they feel wearing natural hair and the place that we have to get was paris because its my place and we have made an exhibit based on the book which i which was wise which was quite a success in paris so its moving to some other parts of france. In the suburbs of paris and i hope that it will be moved it will be moving even in africa so publication date of the book is a very liberal claim afro and its coated with its only a photographer and we have. People from the control space scenes. Of the former minister of justice. And people you know are teachers accountants people who just enjoy it just a way to show that beauty includes everyone including people who doesnt who dont look like you know what you connect to beauty for women when you when you google beautiful women all the women white that you see are white women you never see asian women are black women so i wanted to just change that narrative im getting absolutely stir things up and get some more diversity or vashti what what are your are your youve been working for thirty five years as a feminist just slogging away and achieving so much what are your goals now. Well i mean the simplest way to put it is my goal i think all our goal is to change the world and make it a morning to see a world where women are respected where everyone actually has a right to a life of dignity and respect it sounds like a big thing to say but to me thats what feminism is about but more specifically within my Publishing House in india our goal our mandate our immediate priority is to focus as much as possible on the voices of marginalized women so to look at low cost to a man to look at korea women to look at muslim women and women of different minorities to look at transmission men and to capture their stories so that we can in some way a new one the story of india and indian women by including all of their diversity and not only focusing on the voices of women like me who come from driveling nation who are educated and thats really if we can do that in the few years that i as an older woman have left to publish i think ill be happy i know we have Different Levels of optimism on this panel but just a quick answer from all of you just a really short when are we on the verge of an it with all the friction that weve just been discussing are we on the verge of a new type geist ellen and i certainly hope so i couldnt take it if we werent moving in the right direction in some way oh yes definitely yeah samisen there it is. I dont find just oh my grades exactly i wasnt real ok yes we are especially because because we have new means to connect we have never been able to connect in such a way as today and so thats something that makes me positive and optimistic good and lots of hope obviously we wouldnt be doing what were doing if we didnt have hope especially a little word about our own optimism i dont know what we are on the verge on but whatever it is its really important and its. To change reality in very fundamental ways and we had better be ready for it thank you very much to all of our panel as. Well that it. Was a good time alan herring said you shall not die ok i hear you thank you very much for being with us at the Global Media Forum for this very interesting and lively discussion and thank you to all of our audience give yourselves a round of applause thank you. Women in culture obviously working at the forefront for many many centuries and they will continue to do so a lot of optimism in the room here and we are on the verge of something possibly a new type guys. Thanks for joining us. Thanks. Thanks thanks. To a. Good. Topic this week while. So you might ask why the not on the treadmill. Or sipping vegetable soup this is because people who enjoy life who is no longer well thats a start what else can you do to stay. Out. Every saturday at twelve pm but shut the heart of buying films with people. To come for the new song. Theres this special service some of the citys top singers performed choral music for. The spiritual celebration song. Thirty minutes w. They are digital mauriers. For women for internet activists one mission the battle for freedom and dignity. Against repression and violence they deploy the powers of social media. The book their messages are spreading like wildfire the social media spectacle its critical to the bone and thousands of others on the call on life on the streets and they are women who are changing the world to bridge the. Digital lives starts marching on g. W. Welcome to in good shape coming up. The snacking formula what makes potato chips so irresistible. The methuselah formula two sports promote longevity. And the n. T. Aging formula how to stay youthful even as you grow old. And heres your host dr cast in lakewood
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