Inefficiency not to mention the aggressive challenge posed by us President Donald Trump to the rules based International Order on which the un is built so a question here on quadriga this week is germany joins the Security Council but is the u. N. Brokered time to discuss that question im joined here in the studio by three astute observers and analysts beginning with gunter cloyd girl who was germanys ambassador to the u. N. Between two thousand and two and two thousand and six he ses and increasingly interdependent world we need the un is the only organization that can find Global Solutions and set new International Law also with us is Christopher Marshall chief Diplomatic Correspondent for the berlin based Daily Telegraph spiegel who argues that being nice is not enough germany must show that it can exercise pressure to achieve its goal s. And a very warm welcome. Two hundred shallow Senior Correspondent with the Reuters News Agency and travel east of the United Nations has longstanding institutional problems that have been magnified by dont trumps America First policies but she maintains it will survive. Well thank you all three for being here today on court about to begin with you ambassador ploy who has you had youve served at the United Nations for four years a couple of years ago just tell us what the mood is like at the United Nations at the moment it seems that its the worst its been for a long time well i think the United Nations has always struggled with certain inefficiencies that emanate from its structure but it is certainly. It has been successful in many cases just to give you one example i remember when in two thousand and four the buy a lens broke out again in height the on a sunday morning the president of the Security Council called the members and said we will have a meeting at four oclock this afternoon by seven oclock we had taken all the necessary decisions and by ten oclock in the that day two airplanes with french and american soldiers airborne on their way to eighty so thats possible too but on the other hand right now of course the u. N. Is in a particularly difficult position because not only because of trumps policy but because we are troubled in practically all corners of the world and the un can solve these problems only was a corporation of the Member States and without the Member States cooperation the u. N. Is powerless let me just to come in on the on the through the challenge to the United Nations if you so well posed by the us President Donald Trump andrea when he was still president elect in two thousand and six he said when do you see the United Nations solving problems they dont they cause problems do you agree. You know i think the United Nations has. A problem in that if it isnt properly represented i mean look most of the countries of the world are in dont you know we only have five permanent members of the Security Council so theres been a lot of calls for that structure to be revamped to increase the representation if you dont if you have a body that purports to speak for the whole world but but there are many countries that are not represented that creates this kind of imbalances that we see and i see you know yeah i think the u. N. I would say is trying to solve problems but often unintentionally and use an exacerbation of magnifies the problems that are not existed at the United Nations how does the magnify the problems whether its of offending of the funding for operations is very heavily weighted to the United States when the United States pulls out its funding of programs like the u. N. D. P. Or the. Organization what happens is that those imbalances become much more evident so hes sort of you know used to basically the you know unilateral actions that the United Nations is taking and the rejection of the u. N. Structures are in fact kind of we you know revealing these problems that have been there along. Christopher marshall you are one of those who say that the United Nations is a good idea in principle but the reality is something completely different tell us about that troubling reality well the United Nations con be more democratic and more rules based than its Member States are and c majority of Member States are dictatorships or at least of tory tarion regimes see democracies in the states of law in the minority and that of course limits the possibilities of the United Nations to be what they are supposed to be which is somehow the current or of a rules based welt order and this is a special challenge to germany germany is used to put to him. Point on diplomatic. And Diplomatic Solutions and also being nice and talking people into solutions and if we have partners which just dont agree on that and say well if we block a certain solution its much better for us than germanys not up to the task and thats i think what germany has to do now it has to show that its not only able to be nice but also to apply pressure its the fourth biggest economic country however the world so we have a lot of pressure even without taking military action we can put pressure on Member States and we should do that and unfortunately the first what the federal government said until now is they see their role in the Security Council doesnt pointing to that direction its more of being nice again what needs to change well our foreign minister for example that he want to put the focus on Climate Change on the role of women in conflict and on diplomatic preemption of conflict its all nice and fair but its not enough means a real big problem how do we deal with ukrainian law or crisis how do we deal with chinas behavior in the chinese cease putting pressure how do we deal with huge humanitarian crisis and civil unrest in yemen in sudan wherever you look and that you cant just solve by talking nicely and trying to persuade the youll do worse to behave a little bit better you have to put pressure on those regimes and you have to stand up against china and russia in a certain way and i dont see that willingness until now in the german to more diplomacy and i think to go to follow up that we have to make sure that the trial is being recognized and and we do speak out if things are going wrong for example. Remembers iran. Agreement that was an agreement worked out by five Member States and it was adopted by the Security Council by a unanimous vote so at that time it became International Law because a decision of the Security Council and the article twenty five of the is binding not all Member States that means it has become International Law now you can or you can this drawl from a treaty but you cannot raise drole from International Law and we have to make this sure that it is known all over and also in the Security Council ok never heard about this point taken under well i was just going to say you know germany keeps saying it wants to play a bigger role in the world and you know theres deep skepticism about whether it will ever make that promise. True because it keeps saying these things you know since twenty fourteen at the Munich Security Conference weve heard the same mantra over and over again were hearing it now from heiko mass and the question is how exactly does germany plan to do that and so i was just you know struck the skepticism is present not just internationally but here in germany as well and what has to probably happen is that there has to be a title shift in terms of education of the german public because one of the Biggest Barriers to germany. You know being more powerful is that it doesnt carry a big stick so it has economic might but it wont engage in military action that it wont do that because of massive political resistance in germany but the times are changing ok well talk about our point in just a minute but first of all Christopher Christopher from marshall what. To what extent is the veto power of the p. Five of the hearts of many of the problems that face the you know its a patients of the security can. So you know of course that is a very. Powerful measure which they can take and of course i would say when i when i advocated for germany putting pressure also on china or on russia that would mean that we can overcome the beach of china or four of russia but we can feel let them feel the consequences for the time being russia for example just made it impossible to talk about your Current Crisis in the Security Council in the un should we agree to that should we just let it happen say oh well we cant do anything about it we could also tell them you know we have a lot of economic possibilities what to do with you if you dont agree that at least we can discuss these problems with you and these steps should be taken i also have no illusions that china will change its behavior in the seas or when it comes to trade politics or whatever but we can let them pay a certain price if see misbehave this willingness has to emerge so its not only about a military stick its also about using or economic power as the economic power stick and for the time being in germany is a normal reaction as well you know we dont want to let that business go its much better to play nice with china or to have Energy Contracts with russia and we never seriously talk about that because change this kind of politics ok lets stay on the veto because as you saw the greatest number of vetoes in the Security Council since one thousand nine hundred mostly over syria the impact as we see now has been tragic. The images shocked the world victims of an alleged chemical attack on duma new damascus many of them children. And the International Community frozen moscow used its veto power in the un Security Council to defend a sense of regime against western interests sanctions investigations cease fire agreements all blocks in the russian ukrainian dispute over the status of the Crimean Peninsula as well the u. N. Could offer little more than symbolic support. As feared russia and the u. S. Stopped any productive resolution from getting underway. The u. S. Has also made active use of its vetoing privileges towards the end of twenty seventeen it blocked a resolution pretty size in trumps decision to recognize jerusalem as israels capital now the American Embassy is moving from tel aviv to jerusalem. What good is the Security Council with vetoing power. Deployed there is the Security Council being reduced to a blocking shop. To a certain extent yes because of the vetoes of the five. Members who have a vital veto and whenever the interests are involved you know they tend to to block a decision but on the other hand i think we should not discuss whether we could have bought us a veto because thats not possible because the veto cannot be removed unless you have a change of the trotta and a trained of the tata needs a two thirds majority in the General Assembly that means that the Security Council is frozen in time its frozen good right back to the end of the Second World War it was stuck there forever yes the problem is that the train driver to try removing the veto would require z. The as the consent of the p five thats put in the shadows so its in vain to discuss whether we could abolish the veto but what we can do in there i agree with Christopher Matia we can put pressure and by good arguments. You mentioned already the case of ukraine i mean the situation there is that the two agreements that have been worked out in the. In minsk have been made International Goal by a unanimous decision of the Security Council now. Why not send a un mission including the p five and for presented to of the p five to ukraine to the ukraine as a whole not just to the west and ukraine and if we for example would suggest that. The russians might veto that but if they do that they would prevent the implementation of their own decisions in the Security Council and thereby lose a lot of credibility so this is a. Kind of seeing how we could put pressure on the Security Council to take everything the before fission. What perspective you see from broadening the representative nature of the Security Council well i you know i think that there there is a possibility of some kind of a race that we have you know anytime that theres a change in the structure of the Security Council you have an opportunity for new conversations we have a u. S. President that is going to be increasingly limited by the democratic majority in the house hes facing a lot of pressure at home china is facing economic pressure russias facing economic pressure the pressures on those permanent Security Council members are increasing outside of even what can be done diplomatically just economically and that will create a different environment it creates opportunities and i agree i think germany could play a really good and positive and constructive role if it stands up and really speaks with one voice germanys had a very dysfunctional couple of years elections governments infighting perhaps too that will change now with new leadership at the c. D. U. Level. I will leave it skeptical because its not only a question of the Political Leadership its also a question of the public debate in germany and at the moment still this public debate is very much dominated by all these happy talking ideas about pacifism about playing nice and we dont have a real open debate that sebald is a dangerous place that you should have said you have National Interest that you should also admit that you have a National Interest and that every country is fighting for its National Interest and we should do so and we should also have no illusions about european unity in some cases we have european unity in others not so we have to to play in this play box and we have to analyze very. Sorely where we can achieve alliances and where we condoms and we have to go for it and we should also not be afraid to talk about see dysfunctionality of see United Nations where it is dysfunctional and not being afraid that somehow destroy c. The whole idea in germany we have been too idealistic picture of the United Nations as if this would be as well to government and the representation of a rule of law all over the world and then we have had. Instances like libya being the head of the Human Rights Council and we had tehran being at the head of the womens Rights Council and also and there was yemen the head of c denuclearization counter examples where you see its absolutely ridiculous but its sometimes ridiculous and that we should admit and on the other hand we should try to use the United Nations where it can be constructive and we have to do something in order to make it more constructive i think we have a good chance to do this in the coming two years in the Security Council because as you know we will soon have a. Treaty number two with france and that means that we can draw on all hands with france in the Security Council and in the un in general to push things ahead and i think i can say from my own experience when i was best at it was the United Nations in two thousand and three in the Security Council the then french ambassador myself weve made a promise to go together in every case nobody would go without the other nobody would do anything against the other and we would always take joint act