Was one of the largest allegations . I believe it was the Largest National delegation. Included in that delegation was Secretary Perry. Secretary perry, ambassador sondland, myself, ron johnson was there, and at the u. S. Embassy at the time joe pennington. We have talked a little bit this morning, but the president zelenskys inauguration came together quickly . Did. We had three days notice in which to put the delegation together. There has been discussion whether the Vice President was going to lead that effort and as it turned out, he was not able to lead it. Do you have any information where the Vice President was unable to join . I dont. Mr. Morrison, do you have any information as to why the Vice President was unable to participate in the delegation . No. Ambassador volker, you testified during your deposition that aid in fact gets held up from time to time for a whole assortment of reasons, is that your understanding . That is true. Sometimes the holdups are rooted in something at omb, sometimes it is the defense department, sometimes it is at the State Department, sometimes it is on the hill, correct . That is correct. So when it was held up her 55 days for the ukraine, that did not in it of itself strike you as uncommon . No, it is something that had happened in my career in the past. Id seen holdups as assistance. I just assumed it was a part of the decisionmaking process. If somebody had an objection and we had to overcome it. In fact, there were concerns that perhaps president zelensky was not going to be the reformer
that he campaigned on . That was a supposition that i made because of the meeting with the president on may 23rd, i thought that could be what was behind it. In fact the aide was lifted shortly after he was able to convene a parliament . I believe he let me get the date straight. Yes, he was able to convene the parliament around the 1st of september, and i believe the aide was released on the 11th of september. When he was able to convene a parliament, he pushed through anticorruption initiatives . That began with a parliament seated on that day, a 24hour session but then it continued for some time. That was an encouraging sign . It started off in a very encouraging way. Yes. Other than these things going on in the background with the pause in the aide, the u. S. Regulations with the ukraine, you testified, you stated it was about as good as he would want them to be . Can you repeat the question,
im sorry. You testified at your deposition that once the aide was lifted despite all of the things in the background that u. S. Ukrainian relations were strong and as good as you will want them to be . Yes. You reference to that the Security Sector assistance was lifted, any hold on that that there was a positive meeting in new york . Thats correct. Was momentum putting pressure . That is correct. In your deposition you made it clear that President Trump had a deeprooted Negative View on the ukraine in the Corruption Environment . Yes. And you are first aware of his views back in September Of 2017 . That is correct. Can you tell us about that . Yes, and september 2017, i was invited by secretary tillerson to do a debrief with President Trump before his meeting with president protege can go, i did
the prebrief, and then i took part in the bilateral meeting. Long before president zelensky was elected, President Trump had a Negative View of yes, a very strongly Negative View. Back in 2017 can you remember anything he said or did they gave you a feeling that he had these Negative Views . Yes. I want to be very careful here, because this was a bilateral meeting between the two president s. I dont want to stray and to classified material, i can tell you my impression was that he had a very strongly Negative View of ukraine at the time. Fair enough. He described the president s skepticism at your deposition as a reasonable position . Yes. And i believe that you said most people who know anything about ukraine would possibly think that. Yes. And you viewed it as your role to change his mind, that
president zelensky was a former, not running for office for self enrichment, that he was indeed a good person . That is correct. During the may 23rd meeting with the president and the oval office, can you relate to us the concerns that president articulated about ukraine . Yes, the president came into the meeting and immediately started speaking, he had just a string of comments that ukraine is a terrible place. They are all corrupt, they are terrible people. They tried to take me down. I tried to explain along with the others that were there, each of us took turns speaking, i tried to explain that president zelensky agrees with you. That he was elected because of that situation in ukraine and
that he has a strong mandate from the people of ukraine to change it. Thats why it is important that we actually show him very strong support now. But the president was not convinced, and he said that zelensky is no different. That he has terrible people around him. You know, it is not what i hear about ukraine, but we are telling him, but i hear that nothing has changed. Talk to rudy, that kind of dialogue as i described. When the president said that ukrainians tried to take them down, did you have any idea what he was referring to . I did. I believe that he was referring to the rumors of efforts to interfere in the 2016 election by providing damaging information about the president or about Paul Manafort to the Hillary Clinton campaign. That was one of the rumors that had been out there and had gotten some support from the ukrainian prosecutor general. To the best of your
knowledge, the president actually believe that . I believe that he was concerned about it. I dont know what he actually believed, but he brought it up. And mr. Morrison, you are also aware of the president skeptical view of foreign aid, generally . Yes. That there was an initiative that he was looking at foreign aid pretty broadly . Yes. Im trying to scrutinize and make sure that the u. S. Taxpayers were getting their moneys worth . Yes. The president was also interested in better understanding opportunities for increased Burden Sharing among the europeans . Yes. What can you tell us about that . The president was concerned that the United States seem to bear the exclusive brunt of Security Assistance to the ukraine. He wanted to see the europeans step up and contribute more Security Assistance. Was there any interagency activity whether it was with theState Department or the defense department, coordination by this National Security council to look into that for the president . We were surveying the data to understand who was contributing what and sort of and what categories. And so the president expressed concerns of the inner agency trying to address them . Yes. And by late august, as we just discussed with Administer Volker was there some hope that president Zelensky Will pushed through some of the forms . Yes. Did you hope throughout this period that eventually Zelensky Will be able to demonstrate his bona fides and would subsequently be able to get the president to lift the aide . Yes. In fact, you traveled with ambassador bolden to the ukraine right around labor day weekend, correct . Yes. And met with president Zelensky On August 29th . Ambassador bolden had a meeting in a staff that meeting. And thats right around when they met through and pushed through the forms . As i recalled, the meeting between ambassador bolden and zelensky was the first day of the new product. And they were named to prosecutor . A brandnew persecutor general, a brandnew cabinet, yes. Pushing through some Legos Dominic Legislation yes, immunity. And i believe that you provided some color into this meeting and experience, and he said that the ukrainians had been up all night working on
some of these legislative initiatives. Yes, the ukrainians with whom we met were by all appearances exhausted from the activity. Was ambassador bolden encouraged by the activity . Yes, he was. Was a meeting altogether favorable . Quite. At that point in time after the meeting, ambassador bolden, did he head off to warsaw with the Vice President . Or did he just, i know that you went to warsaw . We had a few stops between ukraine and poland, but yes. Ambassador bolden proceeded to warsaw where we were expecting to ensure everything was staged properly for the president s arrival. Did you have an opportunity to brief the Vice President . I did not. Did ambassador bolden . He did. Did what do you remember with what ambassador bolden shared
about those zelensky meeting . I was not there. The issue i remember most starkly was ambassador bolden was quite annoyed that sondland crashed. But the ambassador at everything he needed to ensure that the president or the Vice President were well prepared. Did you brief ambassador bolden before he had an opportunity to meet with the Vice President . I do not need to. Ambassador bolden was there. But as far as you know, ambassador bolden communicated to the Vice President that the goingson in ukraine were positive . That is my understanding. With president zelensky, and at this time ambassador bolden was advocated for the lifting of the aide . He had been for some time, yes. Did you participate in the warsaw meetings . We had a reduced schedule from what had been arranged for the present and in the Vice President , but theVice President met with president duda of poland, then he met with president zelensky and i participated in both meetings. What do you remember from the meeting with president zelensky . It seemed very positive. What was the message . President zelensky raise the issue of the aide . Correct. And how did the Vice President respond . He represented his support of the aide and the strong commitment of the United States to the ukraine, and explained that President Trump because this is after the politico article had come out that made clear that there was a hold, he explained what we were doing was the United States government and the inner agency was examining what more europe could do in the security space, and taking a look at how ukraine was performing what has been a history of corruption. Was there any discussion during the meeting with
president zelensky on the part of Vice President about any of these investigations we have come to talk about . No. So burisma was not raised . No. The 2016 election was not raised . No. In the president did not mention any investigations at all, did he . No. You mention the August 28th Politico article, was that the first time that you believe that the ukrainians may have had a real sense that the aide was on hold . Yes. From the 55day period spinning july 18th through september 11th, it did not really become public until august 28th . That is correct. Ambassador taylor and i had a number of phone calls where we in fact talked about did the ukrainians know yet, because we both felt very strongly that it was important that we ensure that the president was able to make the decision to release the aide before they ever found out
about it. Ambassador volker, is that also your recollection . Yes, it is. It was not until the politico article that is correct, i received a text message from one of my counterparts on august 29th Forwarding that article, thats a first they raised it with me. Can you share a little bit about your communications during that time period about the aide . I did not have any communications with the ukrainians about the hold on eight until after they raised it with me for the same reason that tim just gave, the hope that we could get it taken care of ourselves before it became something that they became aware of. Inside the u. S. Government, i was aware that the hold was placed. I was aware of that on july 18th. It was referenced at an inner agency meeting, and i got to read out from that meeting from one of my assistance. I then immediately spoke with several people when the administration to object. I thought that this was a bad decision, or a bad hold. Maybe not a decision, but a process, and i wanted to make sure that all of the arguments were marshaled to get it lifted. So i spoke with the pentagon. Cooper, i spoke with the Assistant Secretary Of Affairs at the State Department who would represent the State Department at the next higher meeting. I spoke with officials in the european borough, National Security council staff. So i was actively trying to convey that this needed to be lifted. And i wanted them to be able to use my name in doing so, because i felt that the best prospect for positioning ourselves for negotiations with russia is the strongest Defense Capability for ukraine. And during this time period, did you come to believe that any of these investigations were part of the hold up in the aide . No, i did not. Backtracking just a little bit on july 3rd, you met in
tehran, with president zelensky. And there has been some you know, ambassador taylor and mr. Kent provided some testimony that they had some apprehension that part of this irregular channel that ambassador taylor referenced would rear its head in toronto. Im just wondering if you can tell us whether that in fact happen . Yes, thank you. I can only tell you what i know. [laughs] there may have been other conversations or other things. But i know that we had a conversation, bill taylor, and i believe Gordon Sondland and i around the 28th of june that later connected to i believe a conversation with president zelensky. I may not have been a part of the latter. That being said, i was convinced after that conversation that we had gotten nowhere. We had our White House Briefing of President Trump on may 23rd, he signed a Letter Inviting president zelensky to the
white house on may 29th. And for several weeks, we were just temporizing with the ukrainians saying we are working on it. It is a scheduling issue. We will get there, dont worry. And i told bill and gordon that i was going to see president zelensky in toronto, and i feel an obligation to tell them the truth, that we have a problem here and we are not getting a date scheduled. Here is what i think the problem is. It is the negative information flow from mayor giuliani. And that he would, also that i would advise him that he should call President Trump personally. Because he needed to renew that personal relationship and be able to convey to President Trump that he was serious about Fighting Corruption and investigating things that happened in the past and so forth. I did all of that with president zelensky in a public side after a formal bilateral meeting. During that meeting in toronto, or the series of meetings, there was no discussion of preconditions,
investigations or anything . No. No. You were there with mr. Kent . Yes, i believe so. Did you have any discussions with him about preconditions or investigations . Not at that time. Later on these things came up we were talking about a statement, whether there were investigations. But i believe at this time toronto it was more referring to investigations generically that that is how you go about Fighting Corruption and that president zelensky should reaffirm his commitment to President Trump in a direct phone. At any point in time had mr. Kent raised any concerns to you about any of this . Not at that time. Next event i want to cover is the july 10th meeting. In ambassador boldens office. We talked about it a little bit this morning. I dont know if you caught the coverage, but there was a testimony that at some point
mr. Sondland mentioned investigations and reportedly the meeting ended abruptly, what can you tell us about that . Thank you. And let me answer that question first, i would like to come back to your prior question if i may. But on the july 10th meeting, this was a meeting that we had arranged between alex to nelly oak who was the National Head of Security Defense counsel, and National Security advisors bolden attending the meeting was also Secretary Perry, ambassador sondland, myself, i believe fiona hill, and zermak. It wa was a counterpart visit. I thought that this would be the best opportunity, the first highlevel meeting we were having in washington with a senior u. S. Official to ambassador bolden after president zelenskys inauguration. I thought it would be an opportunity f