Created about lawyers and the law Boy we got an interesting program for you today Tom hi everybody hey thanks for coming Ok Dave do you know enough of this judge baloney that out of this lawyer we got the real deal hall of field going to air force now I'm not kidding you on this you know the professor. Is a superb for Fripp professor at u.c.l.a. His students love him enormously and he brings something in the legal profession which you don't see too much. He has an artistic view of things you know generally lawyers are you're right you're wrong you're guilty or innocent you're the and they get they fall in love with that but here the professor has gone a different route not only does he know evidence and knows how to teach evidence in those courses but also he's looked at how lawyer should be are depicted on the screen I've done this a little bit David you know to be honest I've done a couple of lectures on persuasion and how lawyers persuade one of the ways you persuade is total belief in the client and one of the movies that we'll discuss here is a film about a lawyer that totally believed in this client who says the defendant is not guilty. You know to do that and. Some of the some of the things we've looked at are total belief in principles. The cross-examination of Jack Nicholson on the stand. Where he says you lie under the very freedom that I provide you and then question the manner in which I provide it. I wish you would simply say thank you and then the cross-examination question is. Did you order the code red you're right I did. So both those people believed in the principles involved the enormously and those are ways of persuasion . The soft sell of the Persuader Henry Fonda and. The jury he's in there with the jury and he says well you know that knife really let me show this knife. Instead he set up the jury they said it was a very unusual knife wouldn't it oh yes it was nothing like it no there isn't he took them all in and then he slams the duplicate knife on the table and. So the law profession is in the persuasion business how you persuade and so forth and I think that the movies teach us a lot I don't know if they're all entirely accurate I'm going to ask the professor about about his views on this but Dave Dino it's really great to have the Professor with us he's given the so much thought I'm so excited to hear what he has to say Welcome Professor Bergman to the show thank you really great to be here Time think for inviting me how did you get this way Ok how about that. Well my love of movies started pretty early I grew up in l.a. In terms of. Courtroom movies I when I started teaching evidence I was looking for a way to interested in the subject matter without just talking about principles or appellate court cases you know looking for a way to have a variety of materials that we could talk about in the classroom because I think whatever you do you get bored if you keep doing the same thing every day so I started looking for. Clips from Courtroom movies that we could analyze with the students just as though they were actual lawyers doing actual things because you know believe it or not Tom sometimes judges in actual cases don't make the correct decisions sometimes lawyers ask improper questions witnesses give him proper answers so regardless of the truth of the. Testimony depicted in the clip the students still have to think about well what would you do if that actually happened in a courtroom and your lawyer involved in that case you know I'm going to tell you something I did a little research on you not only from your legal background in your teaching background in your movie background but I have a couple of. Plants over there at that school. And I asked them what do you think of the professor. This one young woman said me this is a true story it's the only class you never skip. About that ball Oh that's right I like to hear that I've never asked a question is that a nice thing to say it is lovely to hear you know I think that as a law school teacher it's goes back to what you were talking about Tom for a courtroom lawyer or maybe just about anyone if you you have to demonstrate passion and I was feel that if I don't demonstrate why I'm interested in what we're talking about in class why should the students be interested in it so I try to teach in a way that suggests my passion and interest in the subject matter you remind me a lot of Amanda McClintock a partner in our firm who's the only artistic person in the firm without a doubt least the only artistic lawyer Amanda. Professor do movies influence how we view wires today Oh I think they do quite a bit I think for most people most of what they know about law lawyers the legal system comes from movies and television shows you know not long ago it was you've heard of the television judge Judge Judy. The California Judicial Commission gets more complaints about judges you know than any actual Johnson people watch that on television and think that she's an actual judge and they object to her rulings her manner so yes I think people tell you you know when a judge or a lawyer in a movie or television show says this is the rule I think people accept that is that must be the rule or they wouldn't say it when when the t.v. Series legal t.v. Series are popular and they sort of come and go or movies legal movies become popular and they come and go when they're popular isn't it true that we normally then see a boost in applications to law schools yes about well I guess over 20 years ago now l.a. Law was one of the best things that ever happened to law school in Romans because that glamorize the work of lawyers they seem to be having a wonderful time while earning huge salaries and that motivated people go to law school. Roughly 20 years before that when I was applying to law school I think we had more social justice oriented films like Inherit the Wind To Kill a Mockingbird and people saw that and saw the legal profession as a way to have a positive impact on society Professor Saturday night 7 o'clock I mean the 6th grade Perry Mason baby man he laid it out who's a total gentleman. His one last record was phenomenal and as a matter of fact I I was resigned want to be a lawyer later on they had another show on that was the lawyers for a little bit more feisty but at least Perry was awesome and matter of fact I I said this These very words to have organization I belong to the International cadmium trial lawyers and they said to me Hey Tom Perry was a lousy lawyer I said What are you talking about a lousy lawyer How about that one last record Ok that one last record is great but this guy didn't know Dooley squat about the case until 720 when Paul Drake would come in with the surprise witness and then he would win the case without Paul Drake at $720.00 this guy was nothing so I said I wouldn't go for it and they went over I had think to Paramount they got 3 film clips we watched them for an hour and a half and they were right carry with them the good of a lawyer. And on the other hand one of the greatest lawyers in people's minds is that it is fancy and he lost the case that he handled. It's not necessarily true that winning and losing is synonymous with your ability as a lawyer we're going to pause at this point as you listen to champions of justice with Amanda McClintock Our guest is Professor Paul Bergman he is a professor of law at u.c.l.a. Also the co-author of real justice the courtroom goes to the movies we have a lot in store for you including some very interesting cuts from some well known movies coming up in just a moment here at Talk Radio 790 kids a.b.c. . Looking to save money on Medicare part d. Well while Green says the preferred network pharmacy for many plans including United Health Care which means lower co-pays for you to gether Walgreens and United Health Care. Make saving on Medicare part d. Quick and easy so bring your prescriptions to your nearest Walgreens pharmacy and start saving today. Trusted since 1000 know one. 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Yeah Lawrence was never that good at football gave up by the time we got to college but he also learned how guys who could save him a lot of money on car insurance so he switched and say this years story has a happy ending after all the national debt is now over 20 trillion dollars What happens next rising inflation drops and the dollar's value of some experts say another crash is coming you can fight this not with stocks or bonds but with gold and silver coins and I are a from Augusta precious metals call 855-858-5807 learn how an ira backed by physical gold and silver could hedge against inflation calling us to precious metals right now at 855-858-5807 get a free gold Ira guide call 855-858-5807 the national debt is now over 20 trillion dollars What happens next rising inflation drops and the dollar's value of some experts say another crash is coming you can fight this not with stocks or bonds but with gold and silver coins and I are a from Augusta precious metals call 855-858-5807 learn how an ira backed by physical gold and silver could hedge against inflation calling us to precious metals right now 855-858-5807 get a free gold Ira guide call 855-858-5807. Welcome back to champions of justice for Tom Gerardi and Amanda McClintock Our guest is Professor Paul Berkman he is a. Fessor of law at u.c.l.a. Is also the co-author of real justice the courtroom goes to the movies on a scale of $1.00 to $10.00 just looking at movies overall the deal with the legal profession how accurate are they well I have to say they're wildly inaccurate on a scale of $1.00 to $10.00 they're probably somewhere around 2 in the to mostly comes from the trappings of the courtroom and me. You know the fact that there are questions being asked and they're being answered and judges are giving rulings but I accurately is not synonymous with truthfulness I think movies and t.v. Shows can be truthful to the spirit of what goes on in the courtroom The Passion of the lawyers the search to get the right answer the fact that there's a jury sitting there so I think there's a lot more truth than there is accuracy hey you know what though I think the law does the right thing most of the time you know and I'm telling you as somebody who's one cases and lost cases and nicely we've had more wins and losses but even in those cases that I have not been successful not that minute but a couple weeks later you say to yourself you know that jury probably did the right thing in that case I think for the most part maybe Amanda disagrees with me but I think from the most part. Jurors get it right do you have a favorite film The deals with the legal profession one that you would like to hold up and say Ok this is at least close to how it's supposed to be. Well I don't know if I could hold it up for that but I you know I have to tell you that one of my favorite films is is actually a comedy I think my cousin Vinnie holds up as a great example of a wonderful courtroom film and you know. Relevant to what Tom was just saying about how really woefully unprepared Perry Mason was among other things My Cousin Vinnie shows the defense lawyer as really preparing he's going out and interviewing the witnesses and that's an aspect of the lawyers work that's really shown in courtroom movies somehow they are fully formed in the courtroom but then he actually does the leg work and we see it Ok how about this I want to go to Amanda but. She's the witness. He was asked the question and she says that's a trick question I can't answer that just says what do you mean you can't answer that because it didn't come out until 966 it was 964 but that lays it on him and then the defense lawyer in that case says will stipulate your honor but anyway I mean that was a great move of how the witness superb knowledge of the subject matter can very be very very effective with the jury and I think another good example of that would be one of my favorite films the verdict and could you tell us a little bit about your an analysis of that film and taking a witness to the woodshed. That expression taking the witness to the woodshed is. You know kind of an ancient phrase and it goes back to the era when actually the lawyers would you know kind of tie up their horses outside the courtroom in the Old West and that's where you go when the lawyer was going to prepare the witness and. You know it's kind of a pejorative phrase I mean you know a place where the lawyer is going to tell the witness what to say. And you know hopefully that doesn't go on very often that you know I love the movie the verdict in terms of its accuracy and its devotion to ethical principle it's probably one of the most inaccurate movies. But on the other hand you know it shows the redemption of a lawyer and there's a wonderful scene in that movie where Frank Galvin who's a personal injury lawyer who is an alcoholic and he's down to his one last case has done no work on the case he's representing a woman who went into a hospital to give birth ended up in a coma allegedly because the doctors gave the wrong anesthetic. And he goes into the hospital room where she's lying hooked up to all sorts of tubes and machines and she. He's a pathetic small figure in this large hospital bed and he's going in there with his large Polaroid camera to take some shots so that he'll create some sympathy in the coming. Settlement discussion and there's this wonderful scene where he starts taking the pictures and then he really looks at his poor client lain there and and we just see his sense of responsibility and professional responsibility for the clients welfare developing through the metaphor of the images on these Polaroid camera Polaroid pictures developing and at the very end it's a silent seeing more or less and at the end of the film at the end of the scene a nurse comes in and says well you're not supposed to be in here what are you doing here and all he can do is all Frank Albert can do is say I'm his lawyer and you realize that that moment has redeemed him his passion to help her his sense of responsibility for her I think that says basically all you need to say about what animates lawyers why our lawyer heroes like Atticus Finch rare in modern courtroom films do you think. Well I think you know lawyers are often seen as you know tied into corporate America you know the people have the money and we live in an era where a lot of films want to. You know kind of create their drama by tearing down. You know those who are associated with wealth and power and so lawyers are often depicted as greedy manipulative and ethical more into it for their own. Personal money rather than a sense of justice let's take a listen to Atticus Finch we were going to Florida beach Well certainly it was so not a lot of homeowners stepped up 3 years this may have a good long look at your home when you catch this please thank you. All right this time you're pretty sketchy but your left hand. Accounts for why I kept. Her carriage is my left hand. I got a croaker cockatoo and when I was 12 years old Oh my muscles were. Well that is a little section of To Kill a Mockingbird and it deals with cross-examination and courtroom demonstration. How within the bounds is out of us there and how side the bounds is he. Well he's certainly out of bounds in terms of the normal courtroom process because basically when he throws this object to his client his client testifies right there in the middle of the opposing witnesses cross-examination So in terms of accuracy it's it's not accurate at all but in terms of truthfulness it does bring out the fact that you know a lawyer can be quite persuasive through a visual demonstration as opposed to just the use of language you know what but that's what we're supposed to do is to what would be more impressive to this jury some doctor up there saying yes and there's some of developmental problem with respect to the left muscles of the or I can't do anything with my left hand the guy's being honest when he can't do anything with his left hand and that's something that those jurors can understand much more readily than they can understand of the diminished muscle reaction to the trap easiest muscles of the left side or something you know to me exactly exactly I think that today but most people you know are look at computers look at television look at movies most of us are visual learners and the more lawyers can make information visual generally the more persuasive it is I think we're going to talk about your book later man to want to talk about that but you know being a trial lawyer we're in the persuasion business how do you persuade How can you best tell the truth that makes an impression on that jury and indeed abacus just did a pretty good job yes he did Ok. You're listening to champions of justice with Tom Gerardi and Amanda McClintock and our guest today is Professor Paul Burton and he is a professor of law at u.c.l.a. Also the co-author of real justice the courtroom goes to the movies we'll be dealing on and off with the book throughout today's program and we're dealing with as well some of the other aspects of the law and justice Tom you want to talk more about persuasion. Tell me more about that from your perspective I mean. You represent clients that have a lot at stake so you really need to do a lot of persuasion you know you do but more importantly the words that you use have to make sense to the people they're listening to them it doesn't do any good to be talking. In. Math to people that aren't really know anything about Man you've got to talk to people in terms that they truly understand that just like Atticus just did a few minutes ago and the ability of a lawyer I think and how you're gauged how successful you'll be is the ability to be able to persuade with the truthfulness of the case and being able to put it out there how much preparation we heard earlier about the preparation that a lawyer did in the movie My Cousin Vinny how much preparation do you need to do how much do you have to be up on the subject matter that you're dealing with in the courtroom tons of it you know we use mock juries. Professor And we tell the story in different ways we get a reaction back and it's all the same story but it's told with a different emphasis and so forth and it's very interesting that in this type of a juror this works on this type of a juror this works because this client has everything invested in you you're going to start the case against the Dodgers in a couple weeks and the client has everything invested in us and if we don't do the best possible job is going to be terrible and. Some days especially when things work out well in a courtroom you're driving back to the office you say Holy Toledo you know can you imagine getting paid to do this this is so much fun and other days Paul you know it's not quite as good right we're going to catch our breath at this point as you listen to champions of justice with Tom's ruddy and Amanda McClintock we're talking about the movies and the legal profession and the art of persuasion and what is real and what is stretched out a little bit when you see the movies Our guest is Professor Paul Burton is professor of law at u.c.l.a. And the co-author of real justice the courtroom goes to the movies. We'll be back in just a moment here at Talk Radio 798 a.b.c. . A.b.c. News on Ken Jeffries with us news update they were vigils in the l.a. Area Sunday night to pay tribute to the $11.00 people who died in the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting on Saturday one of those vigils was at the West l.a. Federal building while another hours earlier was in the west San Fernando Vall