And unfair business practices a substantial part of his practice is devoted to the defense of class actions Mr Oso served as lead counsel in numerous appellate cases including victories in the California Supreme Court and the federal 9th Circuit Court of Appeals he was lead counsel in a case in which the California Supreme Court established the doctrine of primary jurisdiction Mr Oakes most recent trials involve complex cases in both the property casualty and life insurance fields he won a bench trial involving a $1500000.00 life insurance claim submitted by the heirs of an insured murder victim he also went to jury trial involving a putative class action that alleged an automobile insurers direct repair program violated the rights of policyholders Mr Oakes in general is general counsel for the Radio and Television News Association of Southern California a member of the judicial council of California's bench bar media committee he's a member of the Los Angeles Superior Court media committee a commissioner of the Los Angeles County economy and efficiency Committee a member of the board of directors of the Association of Business trial lawyers and from 2001 to 2002 he served as president of the conference of insurance counsel now in addition to his work with Barbour and while An l o p Mr Oakes is one of the nation's best known television and radio legal commentators nationally he is an a.b.c. News legal analyst and airs a daily feature it's a law on Westwood One's Metro Networks in Los Angeles he serves as the on air legal commentator for all news radio so Tom it's about time you got one of my guys thank you Ok Dave Dino we couldn't hold off any longer Hi everybody thanks for joining us and Dave you know you know we've had a lot of great people here the Supreme Court justices. And appellate justices and. Senators that cetera and all of them we had to give them some instructions on how to talk into the microphone otherwise they were looking off to the right looking off to the left and we didn't have to do any of that today let me tell you this I'll tell you how champions of justice got started when we 1st were contacted. I said to Eric I said you know where. This is going to take some real time and I'm really busy and she said to me you know Tom you're the person who complains to me that nobody out there really knows what good lawyers and good judges do and now you have the opportunity to bring some people on who will explain that and you're telling me here too busy she's very persuasive so that's the reason the show got started but quite honestly the show got started many years before as I as a lawyer would listen to accounts of various trials more frequently than not Royal Oaks was giving the description and it was always the description down the center of the fairway it wasn't leaning towards one way or why are they doing this or anything like that it was absolute Triffitt in terms of fairness to both sides be it a high profile criminal case or whatever situation may be. So. I convinced Royal that we would really like for you to come down and join us on the show to share some of the experiences and to talk about some of the issues. He's a terrific lawyer a lot of times people who have split occupations are good at both but not silly create him both this guy's the real deal ho afield when it comes to being a lawyer. And more importantly as least as far as today is concerned he's the real deal Holyfield with respect to the issues of cameras in the courtroom and issues like that which are becoming more and more important so let me say this Royal Oaks . I'm a great fan of yours I've been a great fan of yours before I even knew there was a person out there by the name of Roy. You know you've got to be kidding me on a name like that. And more importantly you're a wonderful person a great lawyer and thank you very much for coming down at a time it's my pleasure it's a great pleasure to be here with you on the program champions of justice to Richard program I've enjoyed it for a long time and as you say you get some pretty interesting folks on the air. I guess I have the advantage of the name thing well I grew up in the valley there was Dusty Rhodes and there was Trout and there was there was made and so all the other kids you knew was not because we were great people if they although dusty and broke maybe but we had that advantage so if I still got the same handle and so here I am how many. How many shows how many shows have you been and how many stations you've been on over the past 5 years boy you know. It's funny because people's appetite for information on high profile trials whether it's o.j. Simpson or Phil Spector or whoever's in the news of a view and the low Hannah Britney Spears. You know I've had a lot of opportunities networks nationally they're into into some of the entertainment news I guess the ever great though I did have a chance. To spend some time in Las Vegas for the robbery trial and boy I mean talk about deja vu everybody's you know mind is just drifting back to that in incredible session we had in the mid ninety's where our national attention span was just stretched and stretched nobody waited for it just. Nappa never did and what do you know back in the news so I don't think it's going to be in the news so much in the future yeah it's been pretty busy the last few years matter of fact you know we were trying to record royal couple weeks ago and he says to do anything he said my trial schedule is such I got some time but. I'm on contract to make sure I report the verdict in the Spector trial and that was the only thing that was going to interfere with with his coming down here Mr Specter was found guilty. You know murder 2 was a was an option for this jury and I have to tell you it threw me a total curve as a man of your experience you probably predict if you probably had your crystal ball working when I heard that the judge said to the jury well you could go murder 2 or you could go not guilty or you could go manslaughter I thought my gosh the 1st year manslaughter written a lot he examined. The 1st jury they worked for 12 days time and they came up with Zippo they couldn't agree unanimously I thought they'd go for the manslaughter and heart be well they followed us all going for murder 2 1st jury did not have the manslaughter option right exactly it's always up to the judge of the prosecution can ask for it but it's up to the judge to say well was there sufficient evidence to allow this jury to come up with manslaughter or murder 2 maybe in a course of kind of murky when you get into the recklessness negligence and so on and this this judge same judge just before a terrific jurist he said yeah I'm going to give him the option but they didn't need it and then I'm a unanimous for a murder 2 you know I think and I'm I'm not talking about this because they're still appealing rights and things like that but I think jurors generally get it right. You know I mean if you have certainly I look at the cases I've been involved with including the ones I've lost although I didn't think they got a right that day right as I'm driving home I start thinking Yeah I think they got it right and all these things that you've seen. Do you agree with me Oh absolutely I mean I think that people give jurors a hard time because you get so into it and you have such strong personal opinions all Robert Blake you did it or you didn't do it and then. You know half the people are going to be ticked off when they hear the actual jury verdict but when you look at how hard these people work how many hours and days sometimes months they take out of their personal lives to devote to the public good you know it's easy to 2nd guess them and sometimes in press conferences after the trials they say things that do you think I don't know if I would have said that but I don't think it's fair to 2nd guess it because let's face it the jury system is the absolute best and Jennifer justice people have ever come up with Tom you had a tremendous. Fabulous level of success convincing jurors of the correctness of your position so in a sense I'm a maybe you're a little biased but the fact is they are free in every case to accept or reject any lawyers argument so you know you hear one more more times then you've lost by a huge margin and so I can see how you'd be you'd be somewhat biased in favor of the jury system but the fact is we all should be biased in favor because it no matter how big or powerful person or a company is he can be hauled into court by anybody and the jurors get to decide who wins and at this point we're going to pause for just a moment as you listen to champions of justice with your host on Gerardi and James O'Callahan our guest today is attorney Royal Oaks will be back with more here on Talk Radio 790 k. A.b.c. . 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Welcome back the champions of justice with your host Tom Gerardi and James O'Callahan on Dave Dino and are just today as attorney Roy Lopes James we've been kind of an awful izing the conversation up to this point want to make sure you get a chance to get in here well I've enjoyed what's been said so far so I did I did have a question. And that had to do with the use of gag orders in these how high profile trials. What do you think of those you know what. Defined What's a gay corner you know I think it's. It's an order that the judged as we can't the lawyers in the parties are instructed not to discuss this case before the media now is really really good question Jem'Hadar it's one of my favorite topics good example Thomas or the Michael Jackson molestation trial the judge realize that things were just so into it was drenched with publicity and so he said Look doggone it I'm tired of people trying this case in the press I'm going to have a gag order meaning the parties like Michael Jackson and the district attorney and Michael Jackson's lawyers and the key witnesses may not speak to the press about this now it sounds like a good idea in the sense that it tamps down the public city and it sort of minimizes the frenzy the problem is the reason I have a difficulty with it representing a lot of the t.v. And radio stations are reporters are always looking for a good story The problem I have with it is you know it does kind of shred the 1st Amendment it prevents people from speaking their mind and what it does Jim is it tends to allow the people who aren't really involved in the case the secondary folks who are 2 and 3 levels removed they're the only source of quotes and information and gossip and hearsay information and so I tend to think that in the absence of really extreme circumstances where a fair trial seems really in jeopardy let people talk and you know folks can just make up their mind where they make sense or not Ok we've heard. Here's the problem . Criminal trial or a civil trial I'm a defendant all of a sudden the plaintiff has a bunch of bad stuff that is not legally permissible I can show the guy I was. Right and no judge would let that evidence in because it's irrelevant to the case in hand on the other hand believe me it would affect the way I look at this party. Now there if you guys out there in the press not you the lawyer but you guys in the press if you can if you can go tell the public that the jurors really believe me every juror knows more about what's written about the Keys then anybody else does. Even if they're admonished not to read about it somehow they're reading about it now all of a sudden roil the very things that you and I stand for as lawyers that certain things are admissible certain things are not all of a sudden inadmissible evidence which could be very damaging can be given to the person who's going to try him what do you think about that well I grant you that it is a problem of the jurors do often ignore the instructions by the judge and sometimes they're just potential jurors there who haven't even been picked yet they're just in the population generally so I'll grant you it's a problem a couple of things come to mind though 1st of all course the defense has an opportunity to sort of infiltrate their minds and sell his or her or her story as well and sometimes you've got some very high profile the you know big time f. Lee Bailey type criminal defense lawyers who might have an opportunity to sell their story of maybe inadmissible inflammatory hearsay and for mission to a greater degree even though the poor are a prosecutor. On the public payroll so it kind of goes both ways the other thing that comes to mind is that as I mentioned to Jim if you prevent the key players from talking what you do is you elevate the secondary folks to the spokes persons and they can kind of get the word out it's a big problem I mean Tom Just think about the o.j. Simpson case he's on trial in Vegas for robbery you remember the whole deal with the memorability in the hotel room. 5 people on that jury Tom 5 of the 12 admitted during jury selection the Yami thought o.j. Was a double murderer who got away with it now that isn't the case of course of a gag order and we're getting out x. Dollars is just part of the pop culture you know everybody has an opinion about o.j. But o.j. Is argument on appeal and I'm not saying he's going to win but you know it isn't ridiculous for him to say to the Nevada Supreme Court folks you know would have been better if we didn't have 5 people on the jury who admitted in open court they thought I was a double murderer who got away with it now they convince the judge they could be fair and open minded and set it aside but you know that kind of publicity is just overwhelming I told you he takes this position nobody can take we just said Listen we're a nation of laws if it's inadmissibility admissible nobody should hear about it and here this guy comes over here makes inter-league argument of course. I thought he was good all right the gag order and you've talked pro and con here a little bit and you've given a couple of scenarios do you see any legitimate use for the gang quarter trying I think that if you have a trial or the judge is so convinced that you've got somebody who is some sort of a charismatic mesmerizing guy who has basically got the press in his pocket and if he is getting the message out and conveying information that the judge knows very likely is not going to be getting to a jury I can see how extreme circumstances like that you know you'd be tempted to do it it might be a good idea the problem is I think I think the judges ought to have in their mind kind of a presumption that we're not going to interfere with the 1st Amendment the 1st Amendment is a really big deal and if we're a little bit worried about things getting out of hand to media circus and so on you know there are other things you can do I remember Tom. Stood up in front of Judge Ito during the o.j. Simpson murder trial and he was o.j. Was right there and Johnnie was right there Bob Shapiro there were. All sitting there and I was making the pitch to keep the cameras rolling because Judge Ito and stand up 30 file boxes filled with letters from all over the world saying stop the cameras these guys are treating it like it's some sort of a circus it's unfair it's demeaning to the justice process so we were convinced on the media side the judge was going to pull the plug and hold us down there to just threaten to chide us and then pull it and he didn't he kept the cameras rolling but the fact is I think the judge has the power I mean frankly Johnnie Cochran I thought did everything he should be doing people criticized him for playing the race card and so on if I were a criminal defense lawyer and my client were black and here we have this this guy Mark Furhman who is on record saying racist things to the North Carolina screenwriter it would be malpractise not to suggest that this guy might have planted the glove I mean a lot of people think that he framed a guilty man as they say so that it was a circus but isn't that something the Judge Ito could control and so I don't think you deprive the public of seeing what's going on inside the courtroom and deprive them of the of the opportunity of hearing people talk about the case just because at times people go over the top Ok In England you can't do any of this right right and then everybody can talk the heck out of it after the 1st. Now and then wouldn't you think How about this I have a case against Royal Oaks. This terrible criminal who saw all this money on a fraudulent ski not to come on the show knew it was just and this is are out. Of this is the out. And I can't get any of this evidence and there are documents that I have no foundation for no judge in the world would let a man. You're be now accused of something else similar nature but. You know it's a 5050 situation I know that if I can get this bad stuff in the mirror you know be true that the jury somehow is going to find out. I know that they're going to convict Roy. And without that they probably. I think this is true well. Hey you know I guess my my thought on that is if you're at you're making a great point but the old phrase comes to mind sunlight is the best disinfectant if you just let everything and wait a minute is that anybody's phrase. Ok let's go out in the morning I wake up for their you know sunlight is a great c.e.o. You. Know Yeah well you know it's my attitude as you noted out there like sort of the marketplace of ideas prevail you never know though I mean you've got charismatic people like o.j. Simpson he has an automatic advantage for a long time until Specter came along people said how can the d.a. Ever win a big case against a celebrity Michael Jackson when I was Robert Blake wins o.j. Simpson wins and yet finally you know they were able to do it with with Spector but but the very fact that these people are celebrities they have this advantage and I got to tell you story about this last robbery trial when I was in Vegas I was covering it also I was there for a conference and some clients of mine over there and a client of mine came in from New York and she cracked if young woman looked a little bit like Nicole actually and she wanted to see part of the o.j. Simpson trial and I said I can get you and so we go there and for the a