This October 200-1000 cuts came to Sydney for 2 consecutive nights 1st to talk to fellow writer Michael shape on the following night down with us at a Christian for a personal and sometimes conversation about his writing process join us now as this present time Hosty cuts. I mean you know I've known you for a long time I remember when you started thinking about writing a work of fiction Yeah and I mean for this all started my life my relationship with you my friendship with you all started with my admiration for you I picked up The Beautiful Struggle Actually I was I loved when you were blogging for The Atlantic and then one day you know a lot of books come into your house when you're a writer like people asking for blurbs and stuff and and I had really loved your work and then I was looking like one day on our shelves and there's this book sitting there with your name on it called The Beautiful Struggle to come in and I just picked it up I loved it I wrote you here and letter to sit down there and you just saw this is my question why would a situation like that. Did you read the book because of the blogging but you had never been told what it was you know yeah I saw that the guy had the guy's name on the spine there because you know I you know Talib Kweli album you know I thought Ok that's kind of intriguing but it just got added to the pile river and then I picked it up so you know I I've read you love you watch you and I remember when you were 1st thinking about but could you just talk about like what what was the what was the germ of that you know I think you started to write plays I mean really. Beautiful Struggle. And it's funny to down a track if you like going to a big fight with my auditor 1st of many. Yes. About that time it will be here tomorrow so we can you know talk more. If you want to use the title that I was his idea and I see. What did you want to call it let's not talk about. It so was that fight so it doesn't matter. But. So you know a book is out and he says. You know the voice is very very interesting so I knew even when I was right now a book I didn't want to and this happened I miss having a mishap and you know the story I was trying to you know create this kind of immersive world of. Let me just say you were there when you're doing that are you when you're writing memoir. How hard was it how scrupulous Where you how careful where you were how well how much did you struggle with that sort of urge to I. Always annoyed by a writer who would be like 5 years old and remember. I don't want to share so if you actually go back and read the book there's a lot of I don't remember how I don't remember when it must've been and I'm not sure you know as a lot of and I talk to family members also you know in the course of writing and when I couldn't do it I just I just didn't do it but were you aware even though that impulse to want to be able to make it because I was coming from the other place and in fact I was actually part of the challenge to reconstruct one's life without fiction my way you know if I felt then I mean I know much about fiction obviously but I thought then that if you could fictionalized it like I mean come on now you're going to cheat and you're living in that world between. You and I you know biography you know you have all the advantages of writing a novel you know and none of your frustrations actually writing nonfiction right you know so it felt like a cheat. So no I did I did not any feel temptation to that you know and also I think coming out of journalism like making stuff I was just imprinted on me is such a sin so do you think that's so you know you chose a very history rooted non-fictional base for this novel and that's one that you 1st began to explore I think on the planet blog and I did I did but you know again I think. Subject why is this true but in terms of actual writing it comes out of a beautiful struggle. Because I think what I didn't realize was I really liked even though. It was not fiction I really liked it deciding how their world was going to be put on display you know what the vocabulary of the world would be you know what the angle I thought was interesting and you know talk about the you know use if you don't learn the comic books and dungeons and dragons and all that. And I think like the very similar things going on in the water dance and always were you know you're correct I started to explore a subject wise. On the Atlantic you know in terms of blogging but one of the things that became really really clear to me. And partially due to your intervention was that if you're going to write about the period of a slave you really have to have something new to say and you really have to have a new way of presenting it and it was really clear to me that I couldn't just. I guess can be routes you know and that's not a shot a route that's routes are already been done so I How do you how do you make it new and so that challenge was it was very very exciting or was the well 1st of all just the Civil War itself like I can remember from those blog posts like the excitement that you convey there just that the it's so rich the whole history not just the part that has to do with enslavement but the you you were into the saddle that of fields and all of that stuff and what what triggered that for you where did that come from. A trigger that I you know when I started at The Atlantic I had a lot of time. You know a lot of time I had more time to read than I'd had a really really long time you know my son was about 8 years old. And you know kind of semi independent. Quite the same right right right and so I had in the way my job was structured I had a lot of time to read and I don't actually remember how to trail when I read this book. And I really enjoyed. And there was a lot about reconstruction and then I went read this book about reconstruction and I really enjoyed that and then in the back it out there was a lot about the Civil War and I went in it just sort of. Started with I had to be well yeah interesting and I thought I'm going to write a novel about the Civil War That's what I actually thought originally and you know one day hopefully I will but. That was the original germ of the idea and you know you've written and spoken I've seen in interviews where you talk about like black Americans knowledge of an interest in the civil war itself and how they're taught or not taught and that's like for you as a kid growing up like what was your awareness or consciousness of the Civil War I wasn't much. You know it wasn't much I mean growing up in Maryland Yeah you know I do intense battlefield of. Actual battles but of slavery and yes an area in Northern Ireland so we had Area time in front of all of that we knew about the Civil War I think one of the more successful. Things that the Lost Cause neo confederate did was they wind up. The battle for history certainly but they also won a cultural battle a battle of ascetics and so who was given the author of the being depicted as valorous you see that we're Ok it's not. That means you're wearing full or I don't want that. You know you could say that I could because I could not remain. But who you know valor and who got to live gala I mean it was generally the other you know Confederate white you know soldiers and generals and so instinctively you know it has nothing to do with you you know and so I think in many ways we really quit the field and then when I begin to you know read it just there was so much that was rich I was you know I was like really interested in. Why it is that what clearly became a war fought for deeply evil causes you know the right to own and human beings and their families for profit how could it be to be champions at war. Like the knights did you know I mean I how it would be and the people who are you know fighting against it if reluctantly what it Dragons' like how did that happen you know. And in the early stages the thing about this novel I think I was very interested in the statics I was interested in entering into that I was interested in heroes that were better track. What the history actually was yeah whatever is better track reality and also had I had I had you know frankly more truth you know what they were doing and what they were trying until it wasn't I mean it was partly what you were writing about Robert e. Lee when you addressed the subject to Robert De Niro's but that was the 1st time I actually started I think I had an intellectual knowledge that of more underlying right you know ambiguity and figure but the base of what I feel and think about Robert e. Lee is. That I got yeah I didn't know how you're feeling like. Frank and his horse's name was traveler right and all he wanted to do was just you know him to his farm to. Do all that stuff yeah so you know it's such a value for me personally it was such a valuable corrective and I mean I had to but I had something not too different in my head but I don't like I kind of had to sort of void it is you know if I hadn't gone after I did. And then when I saw. You know like Robert e. Lee where he goes to Gettysburg his armies kidnapping free black people and selling them in the slave. When he goes into them a kidnapping from black people and selling them into what I saw to the very documents the session so clearly I wanted because was for insulation it that in the words of John c. Calhoun. Slavery was a quote positive good. So there was nothing actually reluctant about this at all there was no shame no no no it was willing it was lost. It was aggressive you know what I got that. And inside these people are heroes that in Virginia for instance they have King a lead Jackson big Martin Luther King Robert at least that's the holiday. No seriously that is. How seriously this is a thing is the actual thing you know and so they can't give the holiday to a man who gave his life gosh I mean. You know for a cause of nonviolence and I'm married to 2 people who fought for the right to sell people. And that you so I get when you get there like in Tennessee for instance. There are all sorts of statues to Nathan Bedford Forrest I found that a cook's going to say yeah you know and a terrorist and a terrorist I mean just a you know a blatant terrorist and. If you start like how did these heroes get made you know I do you'll get this most people want to have gotten this but always it's like you know you watch him go to rings but my sorrow on one Fred exactly I mean so Ron wrote history right and sorrow and made himself out to be you know like the good guy like they would actually dorks Yeah you know I mean you read it you know I you know this is actually quite fascinating you know what happened so when I went for the novel even in fact long before I understood what it actually took to write a novel so I mean just sitting here thinking that listening to you talking about about this whole sort of. Deeply revisionist understanding of the Civil War history of history historiography of the so war that's in your mind and then you have this and you've you've already set that even even though you didn't in the brain in that particular novel but still that's when you're starting positions you're right and then you're setting yourself this other thing of like I don't want to write about it's lame it in a way that's been dull if I don't want to. You got to find your own way into that so you start out with the. I mean you were crazy like most people's 1st novel they start with like you know like I did like this wonderful summer in my life where literally it's going to be small you know. Whatever in the future and you're never like can the start like really out of biographical but you know what you know what those novels no disrespect they bored me they really I think I understand they actually like but you know like when I thought about what. I thought about I always found doctoral so exciting I read it and it was this huge world you know knew this atlas and I was in the middle of it with things going on and I'm thinking yeah you know Teddy Roosevelt his hero was it was about no. Was it maybe. Deni. Watching the show and dries or keeps turning his chair around and it was like exciting like I was just so you have a taste for the epic it's because you mentioned Lord Of The Rings. You like epic narratives. I do I mean I like small or small books that I love action but when I thought about what I wanted to read I came away from a lot of civil war reading feeling like and this is not something I had as a younger person. Like the story of Black America was to me personally like the most exciting big you know in American history and maybe in our little west. Let me explain what I mean by that you have this country that ostensibly fashions itself in Unlike many Republican oldest democracy in the world and that democracy in that republic is actually made possible by the enslavement it which is the total opposite of democracy. Of another group of people and what I didn't understand before was that one literally depended on the other you couldn't have democracy without the enslavement and this struggle goes on to this day for 400 years and you can see the back and forth of the pole and the pushing and all of these great characters within it and I thought like oh this is clever if you want to write something out that this is where you would go you and go to you know like the plantation and right from the mass this perspective why would you do that you know I mean all of the tension in the grime and the dirt and the filth and the beauty is down here you know we call the muck in the muck the muck in the book exactly and so I think for a lot of African-American writers certainly journalists there was always this sense that we have to get out of this sort of. Space of being black we don't want to just be pigeonholed as black writers and once I got it I felt like white people should want to be black right this is my. Right here. You know I went out on the pitch you know they are you know I mean my God the way it is the pigeon home you know I mean everything outside at is actually America you know what I mean and once I understood that I thought could God I could live here you know I mean I actually I mean I do live here but I you know I mean no no I mean I have I've felt many times that I'm a Wiki Pedia rabbit hole person and I like start down when you know yourself is. So many times I've ended up on a page that is in some way another page about African-American history I think a figure a relatively minor. Narrative and I have this feeling of a you know lucky. Writer Yeah it is going to get to this person one day there's there's at least 2 novels and yes story you know it's true it's so. You know when you when I think about when I give her some of the. Really quick examples so we were going down to want to tell it to film for what it is a film promo stuff and hoping for the want to get it and I'm talking I want to historians down and I said you know we're talking about you know my buddy the hall had a jaundiced 1619 project everybody loves it we're talking about he said There you go after the cold. You know so my wonderful as you said you know yeah it's great you know but you know there's an argument it actually is an earlier date so they said well in the 16th century actually the Spanish came to Florida and they came to California they brought in slave black. What happened she said Well the interesting stories in Florida they bring me as a slave black folks start up by you know a little enclave a little camp they rebel. And they run away and disappear and never accounted for and there you go. Like this so my stories like I do you know I mean just absolutely incredible ones and I think part of it is like when you're black in this country not so the 1st thing was you know your condition to believe you don't have a history and then when we finally got to the point we had Black History Month we realize we did but your history is kind of boring and mostly consists of people you know. I mean I was I was taught Yeah you know it's you know a kind of you know sacrificial lambs sort of history you know and then you start to dig into it and it's so much more exciting and you know you know I always say about for me Oscar Micheaux like the direct like to add. Enough to write a novel about the whole world of black kind of like paralleling is going on and somebody has already done that or can I ask a question do you have any fear about doing. So you write or. As a person. When my butt is in the chair and then and I'm just at the keyboard I don't have any fear whatsoever but as a person but why do you going out into the world with it I would have to have some I asked you to like whether you thought it was a good idea and. I mean. What are you I know I think it is a good idea yeah I mean I think it is a good idea I think is actually just a something that went on with the book I think. And we went through this with Telegraph Avenue Yeah. I think there is nothing wrong when you're writing about an experience having other people read it you know you should you know I think you have to and it's not even to you from criticism you know I mean so much as it is to make you feel Ok yeah I mean I forget or what do I know or what my work can you tell me that clearly ignorant about right for me the whole purpose of like this interview but the whole purpose of life is to remedy your ignorance Yes So yeah. Really my. Us. So when you talk about writing a different. I mean how do you know you know you know how much you. Hear for you. So when you talk about a different approach to writing about the experience of slavery. That's immediately apparent when you start actually not immediately and 1st when you're reading a lot of dance or you know I have this I realized I had this like Slate anxiety as I started to really like is this going to be a story like most other stories about slavery which 10. Be horrific justifiably horrific gruesome incredibly violent. Incredibly painful both physically painful in terms of what the characters are not going in the mostly And it's really not I mean it's not that stuff they're right you're not avoiding it right but it's not the focus of the story I mean that right that's correct that's very much correct and I was that was that was intentional. And it's funny because. The story for whatever reason I'm a Slave has been written in that kind of visceral way it is actually. Somewhat of a hurdle you have to cross with African-American readers to get them to engage and I get it if you want me to do you have to cross to you know if I want to consume and. Obviously you know. Slavery depended on torture. It depended on deeply gruesome acts of violence but there was a way in which in focusing on the visceral. There's no absolute truth right there's no absolute thing that happened and so I heard you know no disrespect you know George Martin One time he was called You know some of you know how you know sex is the pick didn't rape and all that he said was This is you know the Middle Ages this is what life was like not is not what life was like you know I mean this is this is a made up world this is a man don't know so I don't want this is fiction this is fiction you know I mean and in fiction as a camera as somebody behind the camera and a camera choose what they want to show what they want to emphasize you know there is an essence of truth but there's no you know retreat to for a similar. And when I went back and read sort of choices that I've made writing about how you show in what you show when I went back and read the thing that struck me the most yes you know when you look at the primary documents there's violence you know this rape exchanges beating and all this stuff you know but the thing that horrified people most was the selling to children that was always the most painful painful thing and