Are you gonna run for president . I think i just got an f from you. upbeat music upbeat music matt lewis, welcome. Good to be here. Good to see you, so this book, great book was published during the republican primary so its 18 months ago, plus or minus, as we sit here today. Were you right, as you look back, to be worried about conservatism . Absolutely. So it came out in january 2016, right before the Iowa Caucuses so i started writing this maybe in 2014 and wrote a lot of it in 2015. And god, who could have predicted in 2014 and 2015 where wed be today . Right, so donald trump wasnt even running when i first started writing this book, but even without donald trump, i saw that there were problems in conservatism, that there was an identity crisis. And i think what were seeing right now is the manifestation of that. Conservatism, is it populist, does it believe in free trade or does it believe in protectionism . This is just one issue that were still wrestling over. Right, lets get the big one out of the way, is donald trump a conservative . No, hes not a conservative. Is he a republican . Can i go down from there . audience laughs by process of elimination, lets arrive at something. I think if you declare yourself a republican, then you are a republican. If you win the presidency running on the Republican Party line, you are a republican. Yeah. But hes not a conservative. Hes not a conservative but i would argue he has a chance, ironically, to become maybe the most significant conservative. Or his agenda could actually be the most conservative agenda despite the fact that he himself is not a conservative. Will it be his agenda, will it be the agenda of the people hes brought into the administration, or will it be the agenda of conservatives in congress who recognize that he is essentially a trojan horse and that theyre riding along inside his belly. I think the latter, but one of the things we saw just the other week is neil gorsuch being confirmed as a Supreme Court justice. Conservatives love this, right . Conservatives love it, credible, competent, experience, but also has that conservative judicial philosophy. In his first decision as a justice, refused to end the executions in arkansas, right . And joining with alito and thomas and roberts, and joining with alito and thomas and roberts, everything that conservatives could have hoped for, theres that fifth vote, theres that fifth voice. [matt] and its a lifetime appointment. Lifetime appointment, hes under 50. And then who knows how many additional Supreme Court picks donald trump may get . Are you kidding me, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is gonna hold on to her robe until, theyre gonna have to pull it out of her hands, you know that. They should give her a gym membership or something. If i were a liberal, i would do that. Seriously, yeah. Like pet pills, i totally agree. So why did conservatives decide that trump was acceptable to them . Because if you recall, the entire republican primary was litigated along the lines of hes not legitimately one of us. Hes not legitimately one of us. Right, so part of what happened is that the Republican Base turned out to be not as conservative, not as philosophically conservative as any of us thought. So the average person out there, my dad was a prison guard in western maryland, i went to college in West Virginia, my mom lives in pennsylvania, she drove people to the polls to vote for donald trump, she doesnt know who edmund burke is except for what she read in my book, but she has a conservative instinct, a populist conservative instinct that donald trump tapped into in a way that ted cruz and marco rubio and john kasich never could. But populism used to be more of a democratic rather than republican adjective, right . Rather than republican adjective, right . You would say populist democrat, you wouldnt necessarily think of populism as associated with what we would know in the contemporary sense, politically, as conservatism. Yeah, i mean i think that that guy, the working class white guy who lived in ohio or West Virginia was a union member, maybe, leaned democratic and obviously over the last decades, you had reagan democrats. The pivot point may have in fact been the reagan democrat. And i think now we may have finally reached that point where all of those people are republican. Where all of those people are republican. Did the democrats lose the working class white voter or did republicans win the working class white voter . I think democrats, i mean, look, honestly, its always a combination of two things, you can say the same thing about the south, did the democrats lose the south or did republicans win it . And its always a combination but i think that democrats essentially abandoned that vote. They went for the coalition of the emerging, the Obama Coalition and its perfectly understandable, i mean, if you look at demographics. Africanamericans, hispanics, asianamericans, young people, women, gays, and lesbians, that was that coalition that got him elected in 2012. And its a perfectly rational, if youre a strategist and youre thinking ahead, how do we win the majority in the future. Its the ascendent population groups, right . Yep. But in so doing, you abandon all of these working class white men, mostly, but women too and i think that when you look at the way that america, the american system, our system, the electoral college, the way the congressional districts work, it matters and i think, heres the thing, i always thought that marco rubio was probably the best republican, the best conservative that republicans should have nominated. Well hed be able to straddle both the old Republican Base and this emerging demographic. And this emerging demographic. So that was my idea but theres no way that he would have won pennsylvania and ohio and wisconsin. And maybe he would have found a different map, a different route to victory, who knows, but its entirely plausible that donald trump was the only republican who could have won that election and he will go down in history as one of the most consequential conservatives ever because of Supreme Court picks, if nothing else, and hes not even a conservative. You also have to assume that having won the election as he did in 2016, winning those states, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, you cant assume that those are gonna just revert back to the democrats in 2020 against him or in 2020 for with a new republican, because now that map has shifted, presumably that shift remains in place. Absolutely, what we could be witnessing is a reordering. A realignment. A realignment and it goes back to what we were talking about with the south. Right and of course the flip, though, as you know, the flip is what democrats are trying to say now is the Silver Lining is, well if we give the upper midwest or the rust belt to the republicans, well thats okay because now were gonna get. Arizona, texas. Implausible as this may seem, were gonna get georgia, were gonna get arizona, and the big prize will be texas because demographic inevitably will be this tsunami that will overwhelm republicans and conservatives. Are you buying it . Well i think if youre a republican, you should fear that because thats a possible, plausible outcome and places like arizona that have been republican or texas, i mean, look, if youre a republican, if you start off a president ial election losing california and texas, its basically game over. Mathematically its hard. Its pretty much game over. So thats the real risk for republicans. I think the good news for republicans is that these, i think that things move quicker than they used to. One of my fears about donald trump was that he would rebrand the Republican Party and permanently tarnish the reputation and the brand of the Republican Party, making it sort of a white Identity Politics Party that would. You were worried that he would or youve decided that he has . Well, one part cause you understand thats the knock, 100 days in, were still talking about president bannon, and in some respects, that latter characterization is in the minds of some already come to fruition. I think one of the things, so part of it is i have come to terms with it, i think part of the reason that my analysis has been a little bit better this year than some of my counterparts is that i went through the 12 stages of grief before they did. When donald trump took over the Republican Party and basically took over or defeated conservatism, thats when i began, so my mourning period began sooner and i think there were a lot of liberals commentators who woke up that morning in november thinking that Hillary Clinton was gonna win. And so they went through denial, what is it, grappling, and so they went through denial, what is it, grappling, make deals or whatever. But you dont deny that that White Nationalism, however you phrased it, i dont wanna put words in your mouth but that basically that strain of this political discussion has been on the upswing. Oh yeah. And it is both a knock on him but also its hard to say that there isnt at least a little bit of that baked in. Right, well i think theres a couple of things, i think theres the white identity politics thing which is not good, im against identity politics in general, which is not good, im against identity politics in general, its part of the reason i became a conservative is i dont like the thing where you have to vote for me because youre an africanamerican woman or you have to vote for this guy because youre hispanic so i dont like tribalism in general, i think that politics should be about ideas and philosophy so i didnt like it when liberals did it, i didnt like it when trump did it, sort of played the white identity politics card. But that is, i dont like it, but its not necessarily evil. But there is an evil version of this, of course, which is the alt right, the White Supremacy which is the alt right, the White Supremacy or White Nationalism side of it, which really manifested during this race. I think some of it actually turned out to be russian trolls who were meddling in the election and trying to stir things up and be divisive, but theres no doubt that there are people out there, this guy richard spencer, for example. So let me come back to trump. So is the question about trumps conservatism best thought of through the lens of who he is personally and the politics he espouses or is it better talked about through a policy door, so so far he hasnt had a lot of policy successes in the first 100 days but we have a sense of what his Administration Stands for on healthcare, theres been some discussion around taxes, theres been some discussion around trade, so do you consider those policy positions as weve come to understand them to this point to be conservative as you define . I think what weve seen is a hybrid and so im a little bit optimistic about this. My fear was that trumpism and bannonism would completely displace conservatism and i think what weve seen is actually a pretty good blend. So first of all, steve bannon has been neutralized, i think, and that people like h. R. Mcmaster, who replaced mike flynn as National Security advisor are good influences and that they will have trumps ear. And plus, when steve bannon fights with trumps soninlaw, jared kushner, its kinda hard to win that fight so i think that steve bannon has been, hell stick around but i dont think hell have the influence, which i think is good, so what we now have is, rather than bannonism taking over the Republican Party, taking over conservatism, i think you have a hybrid where donald trump, his strike in syria i think was a very, to me, it was a reaganesque thing to do, it showed decisiveness, it showed some moral clarity. Totally different than what bannon believes in, totally different than what donald trump ran on. You have the nominations we talked about of neil gorsuch, which is a great conservative pick. But then youre still gonna have, he got out of the transpacific partnership, so youre gonna have some populist trade stuff. I think its gonna be a blend that conservatives can live with and actually, if you look at some of, hes been using this thing called the crc, congressional review act, cra, congressional review act, where you can repeal obamaera regulations that werent congressionallyapproved, that were agencies just sort of unilaterally passed them. Some good things are happening if youre a conservative. Im having a hard time, candidly, im having a hard time understanding what conservatives dont like about this guy because everything thats happened in the first 100 days is everything, not everything, many things, that conservatives had said for eight years, oh boy, oh boy, if only we get control of this operation, were gonna do xyz or undo xyz. Yeah, and you could argue if a mainstream conservative like a marco rubio had gotten in, or john kasich. What would be different . Conservatives might like kasich less, right . Yeah, and part of the reason for that is that i think that people like rubio and kasich arent just ideologically conservative, theyre temperamentally conservative and donald trump is here to sort of break things and donald trump is here to sort of break things and create chaos, so when you have the nomination of neil gorsuch, you had first of all Mitch Mcconnell refusing to even have hearings refusing to even have hearings on the Merrick Garland nomination. By the way, you good with that . Im very good with that. You are. You dont think that there is weaponsgrade hutspa in the republicans complaining about how neil gorsuch was treated when Merrick Garland was left outside the store pressing his nose against the glass . Well its rank hypocrisy, ill be the first. Rank hypocrisy. Absolutely. No but im okay with it, and look. But why are you okay with it . If its rank hypocrisy, why are you okay with it . Well because at some point, politics is a bloodless war. Well because at some point, politics is a bloodless war. And although i try to encourage civility and comity as much as possible. And theoretically, nonhypocrisy. Theoretically. But think about it this way, Mitch Mcconnell could have done something else, he could have gone through this charade, of course were gonna have, this charade, of course were gonna have, were gonna meet with Merrick Garland and then they could have held a vote and defeated him. Were gonna pretend to give him a serious. They could have gone through the motions, pretended that they were gonna give him, and then they could have just defeated him. And then, so i think in a way what mcconnell did was more transparent. Intellectually honest. More honest, and more humane to Merrick Garland. Right, but you understand that occasionally the shoe finds its way onto the other foot. Totally, totally. I understand why liberals are upset about this. If in year seven, the democrats happen to control the senate and the republicans see an opportunity to put somebody on the Supreme Court who donald trump would minate and the docrats you guys a gonna be go witthat, right . til year seven, they could do it year four, right . Well we dont know the guys gonna get reelected, not in an election year. No you dont know, we could say, theres a tradition, during election years. But let me just make this point. Mitch mcconnell has been on the right, attacked as a rhino, Mitch Mcconnell has been on the right, attacked as a rhino, a wimp, a squish, Mitch Mcconnell did more to advance conservatism than ted cruz has ever done. In that one act. In that one act. Well and also go back to the time that Mitch Mcconnell, i dont think this is in dispute, said that my job as the leader of the Republican Party and the senate is to ensure that barack obama serves only one term, he wasnt successful, but his messaging has trailed along behind him and in that respect, Mitch Mcconnell has been a lot tougher in reputation than many people give him credit for. Off of gorsuch and garland but onto this general question, you made a passing reference to donald trump did Something Different to what he had said he would do, i guess on syria. There are an awful lot of things that donald trump has done or not done that differ from what he said he would do or the long history of tweets, he would do or the long history of tweets, its almost always the case these days that you have a policy position expressed by the Trump Administration and then some smartass reporter pulls up a tweet from 2012 that shows trump advocating for precisely the opposite thing. And at this point now, we all shrug at that. Is that good that were shrugging at it, is that just, eh, its politics . I thought that that was actually a bad thing, to be completely opposite of what you said you were gonna do. See i would argue that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, that keeping your promises is overrated when youre donald trump because his promises were bad. I like the fact that hes flipflopped. Youre in a happy marriage . Youre in a happy marriage . Believing that the premise here is that keeping promises is overrated . This is a guy whos evolved, flipflopped, switched our way. Switched our way. Hes more sane, more conservative, more whatever. So as long as he switches in your direction. Im okay with that. Hypocrisy and inconsistency are okay. Right, because ive already accepted the fact that im married to, were married to this serial, you know. Theres a famous joke that says, people say, is donald trump gonna be impeached . I say, no, he wont be impeached, hell just leave us for a younger country. laughing good one, good one. Paul begala actually told me that one. We know who were in bed with, is my point. Why are we surprised . So if he