Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20130118 : vimarsana.com

In the rest of africa, there are some allegations of connections with bokaharam in northern nigeria. Perhaps potential supporters in moratani, any ger, senegal, and even from further a field, again as mr. Boot said, you do see fighters now coming from further a field where they are getting pushed out of other places and coming into this area of least resistance. And what will it take to stop them . Anybody . First you have to have security and second you have to have legitimacy. And both of those are soarly lacking in the case of mali. Now in terms of security, you know the french have sent a few hundred troops against thousands of insurgents and it was just pointed out by peter they are able to swing around the french, they are able to melt away from the french captioning sponsored by Rose Communications forces this is truly in keeping with kind of gor ba gorilla warfare where from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Mas say tung says the enemy advance we retreat. The enemy tires, we advance t that is exactly the thinking of these insurgents rose al gerian forces so it will take more troops, launched a dramatic raid on more security personnel to a desert gas plant earlier have some kind of security but crucially, and this is a today this came after militants reportedly linked really important factor, to al qaeda took the charlie and i cant facility hostage on emphasize this enough, wednesday. Youve got to have the charge released several legitimacy. Hundred algerians but held its not enough just to have dozens of Foreign Workers men with guns. Including United States you have to have the people citizens. There is conflicting information about the acquiescing in what the men algerian raid and there is with guns are trying to do no confirmation on how many and right now the regime has cappers and hostages were no legitimacy because last killed. The milton reportedly year it was overthrown. The democratic elected demanded an end to french president of mali was him tear activities in mali overthrown by troops who had in return for the hostages. The situation in mali is been trained by american also critical. Trainers, now there is an on friday last week france interim government. I mean if you can look at launched an area bombing the government of mali, i mean its so bad it makes campaign against rebels with ties to al qaedament since the government in kabul look good by comparison. Then a ground force has i mean this is a very engaged in combat with rebels trying to stop their dysfunctional regime that has a hard time winning the advance to malis capital. Support of its people. So along with the security, it remains unclear what you have to enhance the support will be offered by legitimacy of the regime so the United States. Secretary of state hillary that people in the North Clinton addressed the will be able to turn away situation earlier today in a joint press conference she even if there is a security had with the president of offensive into the north. Somalia. Even if the french are able to make gains in the north sheikh mohammed. Now let me say the theyre to the going to win situation is very fluid. The support of the people unless theyre championing its in a remote area of al some kind of government that those people respect and right now understandably geria near the libyan they have zero respect for border. The government, which the security of our exacerbated by the fact that the people in the north are americans who are held hostage is our highest twareg and you have black priority but of course we africans there is a lot of care deeply about the other tribal ethnic, various other divisions. So you have to have an algerian and foreign hostages International Push to create a more inclusive government as well. That can win the support of the people. And Something Else needs to and because of the fluidity be done even before that, or and the fact that there is a as part of that process is lot of planning going on, i the french and the mallian government need to try to can to the give you any win over some of the tribes further details at this time and clans in the region, about the Current Situation much in the way that the u. S. Marines won over some on the ground. Of the tribes in an bar but i can say that more province in iraq you need that process going on along broadly what we are seeing with the kind of formal in mali n algeria reflects state building. This is a huge, huge challenge. The broader strategic can they do that . Challenge, first and we have heard this and seen foremost for the countries this movie before. Yes. In north africa, and for the and i agree fully endorse and i endorse what max has United States and the just said. I think what we need to do broader international right now is take a moment, community. Rose joining me from washington Margaret Brennan we need to buy some time to state Department Correspondent for cbs news. Establish that legitimacy. One way, this will be troxal welcome. But one way i suggest that good to see you, charlie. We might be able to buy some tell me more about the time is although the islamists number probably in attitude at the state the hundreds or maybe low department about alger ya, thousands in the north, the link with mali and what might be coming. Theyre only a handful of key leaders who are stand as i think it was very interesting to hear hillary linchpins. Clinton there put mali, they intersection of the criminality, the terrorism, algeria and al qaeda quickly and the tribal structures. In that same paragraph. One has to seriously linking those concepts because the state department consider the possibility of has been concerned as she knocking out, eradicating has been in pushing algeria some of these linchpins that will give a bit of disarray, to take a more active role and perhaps some time to in trying to control al build the legitimacy needed qaeda. To really carry out a true because they have been building out what is feared counterinsurgency in the to be a command and control north. I wanted to follow up on what peter just said because center within northern mali. The u. S. Has really taken a that is to say there are step back in mali last year. Weapons coming from libya, understandably perhaps since the coup because we dont through algeria, down into want to seen to be mali, and there is a worry supporting an il legitimate that this could become government. Another afghanistan that is we have taken a step back. We have stopped training the why she was in algeria at mallian armed forces. The end of october and it is we even stopped surveillance why the u. S. State department and foreign over mali because we are afraid some of our aircraft policy advisors have been very concerned about the which are pilotted by threat. They say yes, it should be contractors might be shot an african response. Down and the pilots might its an african issue but fall into rebel hands but we the u. S. Has interest at have to step it up. Change those policies. Stake here. We have to have aircraft rose what is the debate overhead so we can get maybe within state, within surveillance as peter the white house, within the suggested. We might want to send armed Defense Department about drones like the reapers that american options . Can target insurgent leadership. Well, american options we want to restart our are limited by American Law Program to train the mallian army. Right now. There is a lot we can do. Because u. S. Law pro ibt we dont need to send boots hads assisting a government on the ground but there is a or a military that came to lot we can do to assist the power through a coup. French in what we are trying to do. And right now the malian dow agree with that, the government that we are United States has to give trying to support in their serious consideration in efforts to control the assisting the french but not rebels and to control the al putting american boots on the ground . Qaeda and islamic militants well, it has. In mali came to power and look, we are prohibited by law from dealing with the through coup. So we cant provide them direct assistance. Mallian army right now which so u. S. Law prohibits that. In any rate is not going to were finding work arounds be the solution to this. What that mean as secretary theyre in disarray as we clinton laid out today is that by this weekend there said. Will be military trainers in there is a force, now the french have promised up to the area to train african 2500 troops. Theyve got 1400 on the militaries to go into mali, ground right now. Well be paying for that. The West African States have we will be helping to fund pledged 3300 who are the airlift to bring in a french battalion. Scrambling to get themselves there will be about 600 organized. They may not have the troops coming in with tanks to mali. Capabilities to do this so there are work arounds alone and it may be that the but there are restrictions french have to remain there. That prevent the u. S. The chaddians who have a military from getting directly involved in mali. Very competent, capable army what can we do to support which is used to this des the french . Zrts terrain knows the players, knows the dynamics, the french have asked the United States for a number theyve pledged 2,000. Of things. The strike against algeria the mallian government has also asked the United States may prompt the algerians to for a number of things. Get involved and they will right now the u. S. Is be pivotal in this for their agreeing to provide intelligence. Intelligence, their military we do have an unmanned drone capabilities and political connections with some of that was locate odd over the these. All along the u. S. Has incident in algeria. Thats under way in that rightfully insisted on eastern part today. Working on the political we, in mali are helping to airlift the french in. Issue, who is the interlock were helping to fund a lot eter, even if you are of these projects. Successful militarily who dow turn this vast region were also giving malaria over that has never been drugs, gps, kevlar vest, governed effectively, actually. And they pledged robust helmets to african militaries to go in to support to the west african intervene. So thats what we are doing troops and logistics and on that end. Communications, theyve put and the French Military can options on the table in work alongside those african terms of refueling, militaries. They dont have the same surveillance drones, airlift for the french. Laws restricting their and certainly hud had the Movement Like we do here. Chaddians get involved theyll be there as well. So were providing a lot of they dont want to get suck information to them. You mentioned the fact mood this directly that the secretary had been to africa and had some militarily. They dont want to exploratory meetings there. Internationalize this, make the u. S. The big target and did they see this coming . Well, the secretary has the big heavyweight here. And i think thats had africa and particularly appropriate. But i think they will be and taking on al qaeda in east they should provide robust africa as a clear priority for some time. Support to all the partners who are engaged in this. This challenge of taking on youre a director of the al qaeda in mali has really Africa Program at the centre come to the foreearlier this for strategic and international studies, where does this put news the year, earlier in the fall. All of this really boiled up african continent. We have yemen, mali after the fall of mo mar well, this is the big qaddafi in libia. I know we are throwing a lot crisis right now. Of countries in here. And there are several. But it was after you saw i mean its ironic that some of the nationals who somalia is actually on had been in libya on the something of an upturn right now and is looking, there payroll of mo mar qaddafi as are some opportunities his mercenaries lost their there. Whereas mali which we always jobs when he fell out of held as this stable paragon power. And they came back into northern mali. Of democracy is rapidly and thats shortly going down the tubes. Thereafter within six months we have got conflict and of that you saw the government fall, you saw a coup and its really just within that past year and a terrible humanitarian crisis in eastern congo. Half that it has come to the we have northern nigeria, radar within the state department and for the secretary of state. This though is the one that has the Real International but she was trying to push repercussions that the u. S. , algeria to get more directly involved in controlling the region, the regional mali. West africans are extremely they dont want the u. S. At the forefront of this. Concerned about this. They dont want to commit and the europeans. Real u. S. Military troops rose i thank you for taking time to come talk nor can they. With us about this. And so what does the thanks so much, charlie, hostage taking and killing pleasure. Just to put this into the in algeria, how does this context not just of africa influence choices and but of the broader fight actions in mali . Against al qaeda, because well, secretary of state president obama has often Hillary Clinton said today said that al qaeda is on its that they are advising, you way to defeat and its probably true that the know, the u. S. Citizens, central al qaeda businesses to really take organization which was one headed by Osama Bin Laden care in terms of reviewing and headquartered in pakistan probably matter a the security procedures. So you can say that this lot less now than a few years ago but what you have seen is that as we pit al incident in algeria has now qaeda in the core area in rationed concern about the security interest of afghanistan and pakistan it americans and werners splintered outward and moved throughout north africa. Outward. That has changed things and now are you seeing, you know, like a virus trying to tremendously. Find a body in which it can but the u. S. Beyond that is trying to review security as find a weak host. Its moving out and becoming well as some of its more powerful in places like facilities and see if they are prepared. There was a story today yemen, somalia, libya, now suggesting that some people mali. So its moving further and in the state department, some people at defense were further a field and there are so many weak states making the argument that because this is where mali was not in our was terrorists take root. They take root in failed states there are so many not a threat to americas failed states in africa it National Security and that is not just mali there are a therefore we should go very lot of other places and now carefully in terms of looking at what we do. Increasingly in north africa too because of the upheavals that weve seen in the last several years. There has been a debate theres very weak states about that. That cannot resist the there has been a debate about how real the al qaeda incursions of these islamist and the aqim threat truly is terrorist groups so we are actually seeing an al qaeda which is morphing and to western or u. S. Changing an remains very interests. Up until this point you dangerous i think but the hadnt really seen a qim danger is taking different forms from what it was when it was more centrally run attack western interests and tightly controlled out other than their linkage to of pakistan. Thats what we are seeing in that attack on the u. S. Consul and mission in northern mali. Peter, thank you very benghazi that killed the much. Max, thank you very much. U. S. Ambassador there. So within that context, aqim, the situation in mali have been some what contained. Its the potential of it becoming another launch pad for terrorism throughout the okay, sir, youre a region that has people scared and pushing for more lebboutski, im a lebboutski, action. Thats terrific, but im but that said, up until this very busy as i imagine you point, aqim has been a huge are. What i can do for you, sir. Fundraiser for itself well, sir, its this through kidnapping for ransom. Theyve made more than 30 rug i have, it really tied Million Euros after the room together. Kidnapping french citizens you told brad on the because the french will pay for the nationals to come phone, he told me. Back. Up until this point, they where do i fit . Well, they were looking hadnt taken an american hostage and now they have at for you, these two guys. Least three. So they would view i will say it again. Perhaps mali as the next you told brad on the phone, afghanistan or having the he told me. Possibility of being the i know what had, yes, yes. Next afghanistan before 9 11 oh, so you know that they when in fact it was a haven were trying to piss on your for al qaeda. Rug. Did i urinate on your there are parallels there rug. I mean did you personally come and pee on my rug. Because in some ways, you know as one u. S. Official hello do you speak english. Said to me half jokingly i will ask you again, did i its the worlds worst neighborhood. Urinate on your rug. You have islamic extrialists, no, like i said peed on you have al qaeda through aqim, you have drug my rug. Traffickers up there in the i want to understand this north of mali. Ef rhyme tie rug is in and you have just rebels who want some independence to this fair city i have to compensate the person. Split the country in two. Come on, man, im in the trying to scam anybody here. So in that mix you have that worry that you can create you know, i am just within the chaos a command youre just looking for a and control center. Handout like every other are like what you saw al qaeda do through the taliban in afghanistan. You employed mr. Lebowski. So thats the fear that it can become a launch pad. Wait, let me explain something to you. Rose on another matter i am not mr. Lebouwski. Finally, when dow expect the secretary of state to i am mr. Lebowski, im testify about ben gazee ben gaddee . The dude, sos that what you secretary clinton will testify on capitol hill call me, or that is his about benghazi the 23rd. So that will be shortly dudeness or duder or, you after the inauguration on know,el dud erino if you are monday. She will speak before the not not brevity thing. Senate Foreign Relations are you employed, sir. Committee and also answer questions from the house employed . Foreign Rose Communications<\/a> forces this is truly in keeping with kind of gor ba gorilla warfare where from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Mas say tung says the enemy advance we retreat. The enemy tires, we advance t that is exactly the thinking of these insurgents rose al gerian forces so it will take more troops, launched a dramatic raid on more security personnel to a desert gas plant earlier have some kind of security but crucially, and this is a today this came after militants reportedly linked really important factor, to al qaeda took the charlie and i cant facility hostage on emphasize this enough, wednesday. Youve got to have the charge released several legitimacy. Hundred algerians but held its not enough just to have dozens of Foreign Workers<\/a> men with guns. Including United States<\/a> you have to have the people citizens. There is conflicting information about the acquiescing in what the men algerian raid and there is with guns are trying to do no confirmation on how many and right now the regime has cappers and hostages were no legitimacy because last killed. The milton reportedly year it was overthrown. The democratic elected demanded an end to french president of mali was him tear activities in mali overthrown by troops who had in return for the hostages. The situation in mali is been trained by american also critical. Trainers, now there is an on friday last week france interim government. I mean if you can look at launched an area bombing the government of mali, i mean its so bad it makes campaign against rebels with ties to al qaedament since the government in kabul look good by comparison. Then a ground force has i mean this is a very engaged in combat with rebels trying to stop their dysfunctional regime that has a hard time winning the advance to malis capital. Support of its people. So along with the security, it remains unclear what you have to enhance the support will be offered by legitimacy of the regime so the United States<\/a>. Secretary of state hillary that people in the North Clinton<\/a> addressed the will be able to turn away situation earlier today in a joint press conference she even if there is a security had with the president of offensive into the north. Somalia. Even if the french are able to make gains in the north sheikh mohammed. Now let me say the theyre to the going to win situation is very fluid. The support of the people unless theyre championing its in a remote area of al some kind of government that those people respect and right now understandably geria near the libyan they have zero respect for border. The government, which the security of our exacerbated by the fact that the people in the north are americans who are held hostage is our highest twareg and you have black priority but of course we africans there is a lot of care deeply about the other tribal ethnic, various other divisions. So you have to have an algerian and foreign hostages International Push<\/a> to create a more inclusive government as well. That can win the support of the people. And Something Else<\/a> needs to and because of the fluidity be done even before that, or and the fact that there is a as part of that process is lot of planning going on, i the french and the mallian government need to try to can to the give you any win over some of the tribes further details at this time and clans in the region, about the Current Situation<\/a> much in the way that the u. S. Marines won over some on the ground. Of the tribes in an bar but i can say that more province in iraq you need that process going on along broadly what we are seeing with the kind of formal in mali n algeria reflects state building. This is a huge, huge challenge. The broader strategic can they do that . Challenge, first and we have heard this and seen foremost for the countries this movie before. Yes. In north africa, and for the and i agree fully endorse and i endorse what max has United States<\/a> and the just said. I think what we need to do broader international right now is take a moment, community. Rose joining me from washington Margaret Brennan<\/a> we need to buy some time to state Department Correspondent<\/a> for cbs news. Establish that legitimacy. One way, this will be troxal welcome. But one way i suggest that good to see you, charlie. We might be able to buy some tell me more about the time is although the islamists number probably in attitude at the state the hundreds or maybe low department about alger ya, thousands in the north, the link with mali and what might be coming. Theyre only a handful of key leaders who are stand as i think it was very interesting to hear hillary linchpins. Clinton there put mali, they intersection of the criminality, the terrorism, algeria and al qaeda quickly and the tribal structures. In that same paragraph. One has to seriously linking those concepts because the state department consider the possibility of has been concerned as she knocking out, eradicating has been in pushing algeria some of these linchpins that will give a bit of disarray, to take a more active role and perhaps some time to in trying to control al build the legitimacy needed qaeda. To really carry out a true because they have been building out what is feared counterinsurgency in the to be a command and control north. I wanted to follow up on what peter just said because center within northern mali. The u. S. Has really taken a that is to say there are step back in mali last year. Weapons coming from libya, understandably perhaps since the coup because we dont through algeria, down into want to seen to be mali, and there is a worry supporting an il legitimate that this could become government. Another afghanistan that is we have taken a step back. We have stopped training the why she was in algeria at mallian armed forces. The end of october and it is we even stopped surveillance why the u. S. State department and foreign over mali because we are afraid some of our aircraft policy advisors have been very concerned about the which are pilotted by threat. They say yes, it should be contractors might be shot an african response. Down and the pilots might its an african issue but fall into rebel hands but we the u. S. Has interest at have to step it up. Change those policies. Stake here. We have to have aircraft rose what is the debate overhead so we can get maybe within state, within surveillance as peter the white house, within the suggested. We might want to send armed Defense Department<\/a> about drones like the reapers that american options . Can target insurgent leadership. Well, american options we want to restart our are limited by American Law Program<\/a> to train the mallian army. Right now. There is a lot we can do. Because u. S. Law pro ibt we dont need to send boots hads assisting a government on the ground but there is a or a military that came to lot we can do to assist the power through a coup. French in what we are trying to do. And right now the malian dow agree with that, the government that we are United States<\/a> has to give trying to support in their serious consideration in efforts to control the assisting the french but not rebels and to control the al putting american boots on the ground . Qaeda and islamic militants well, it has. In mali came to power and look, we are prohibited by law from dealing with the through coup. So we cant provide them direct assistance. Mallian army right now which so u. S. Law prohibits that. In any rate is not going to were finding work arounds be the solution to this. What that mean as secretary theyre in disarray as we clinton laid out today is that by this weekend there said. Will be military trainers in there is a force, now the french have promised up to the area to train african 2500 troops. Theyve got 1400 on the militaries to go into mali, ground right now. Well be paying for that. The West African States<\/a> have we will be helping to fund pledged 3300 who are the airlift to bring in a french battalion. Scrambling to get themselves there will be about 600 organized. They may not have the troops coming in with tanks to mali. Capabilities to do this so there are work arounds alone and it may be that the but there are restrictions french have to remain there. That prevent the u. S. The chaddians who have a military from getting directly involved in mali. Very competent, capable army what can we do to support which is used to this des the french . Zrts terrain knows the players, knows the dynamics, the french have asked the United States<\/a> for a number theyve pledged 2,000. Of things. The strike against algeria the mallian government has also asked the United States<\/a> may prompt the algerians to for a number of things. Get involved and they will right now the u. S. Is be pivotal in this for their agreeing to provide intelligence. Intelligence, their military we do have an unmanned drone capabilities and political connections with some of that was locate odd over the these. All along the u. S. Has incident in algeria. Thats under way in that rightfully insisted on eastern part today. Working on the political we, in mali are helping to airlift the french in. Issue, who is the interlock were helping to fund a lot eter, even if you are of these projects. Successful militarily who dow turn this vast region were also giving malaria over that has never been drugs, gps, kevlar vest, governed effectively, actually. And they pledged robust helmets to african militaries to go in to support to the west african intervene. So thats what we are doing troops and logistics and on that end. Communications, theyve put and the French Military<\/a> can options on the table in work alongside those african terms of refueling, militaries. They dont have the same surveillance drones, airlift for the french. Laws restricting their and certainly hud had the Movement Like<\/a> we do here. Chaddians get involved theyll be there as well. So were providing a lot of they dont want to get suck information to them. You mentioned the fact mood this directly that the secretary had been to africa and had some militarily. They dont want to exploratory meetings there. Internationalize this, make the u. S. The big target and did they see this coming . Well, the secretary has the big heavyweight here. And i think thats had africa and particularly appropriate. But i think they will be and taking on al qaeda in east they should provide robust africa as a clear priority for some time. Support to all the partners who are engaged in this. This challenge of taking on youre a director of the al qaeda in mali has really Africa Program<\/a> at the centre come to the foreearlier this for strategic and international studies, where does this put news the year, earlier in the fall. All of this really boiled up african continent. We have yemen, mali after the fall of mo mar well, this is the big qaddafi in libia. I know we are throwing a lot crisis right now. Of countries in here. And there are several. But it was after you saw i mean its ironic that some of the nationals who somalia is actually on had been in libya on the something of an upturn right now and is looking, there payroll of mo mar qaddafi as are some opportunities his mercenaries lost their there. Whereas mali which we always jobs when he fell out of held as this stable paragon power. And they came back into northern mali. Of democracy is rapidly and thats shortly going down the tubes. Thereafter within six months we have got conflict and of that you saw the government fall, you saw a coup and its really just within that past year and a terrible humanitarian crisis in eastern congo. Half that it has come to the we have northern nigeria, radar within the state department and for the secretary of state. This though is the one that has the Real International<\/a> but she was trying to push repercussions that the u. S. , algeria to get more directly involved in controlling the region, the regional mali. West africans are extremely they dont want the u. S. At the forefront of this. Concerned about this. They dont want to commit and the europeans. Real u. S. Military troops rose i thank you for taking time to come talk nor can they. With us about this. And so what does the thanks so much, charlie, hostage taking and killing pleasure. Just to put this into the in algeria, how does this context not just of africa influence choices and but of the broader fight actions in mali . Against al qaeda, because well, secretary of state president obama has often Hillary Clinton<\/a> said today said that al qaeda is on its that they are advising, you way to defeat and its probably true that the know, the u. S. Citizens, central al qaeda businesses to really take organization which was one headed by Osama Bin Laden<\/a> care in terms of reviewing and headquartered in pakistan probably matter a the security procedures. So you can say that this lot less now than a few years ago but what you have seen is that as we pit al incident in algeria has now qaeda in the core area in rationed concern about the security interest of afghanistan and pakistan it americans and werners splintered outward and moved throughout north africa. Outward. That has changed things and now are you seeing, you know, like a virus trying to tremendously. Find a body in which it can but the u. S. Beyond that is trying to review security as find a weak host. Its moving out and becoming well as some of its more powerful in places like facilities and see if they are prepared. There was a story today yemen, somalia, libya, now suggesting that some people mali. So its moving further and in the state department, some people at defense were further a field and there are so many weak states making the argument that because this is where mali was not in our was terrorists take root. They take root in failed states there are so many not a threat to americas failed states in africa it National Security<\/a> and that is not just mali there are a therefore we should go very lot of other places and now carefully in terms of looking at what we do. Increasingly in north africa too because of the upheavals that weve seen in the last several years. There has been a debate theres very weak states about that. That cannot resist the there has been a debate about how real the al qaeda incursions of these islamist and the aqim threat truly is terrorist groups so we are actually seeing an al qaeda which is morphing and to western or u. S. Changing an remains very interests. Up until this point you dangerous i think but the hadnt really seen a qim danger is taking different forms from what it was when it was more centrally run attack western interests and tightly controlled out other than their linkage to of pakistan. Thats what we are seeing in that attack on the u. S. Consul and mission in northern mali. Peter, thank you very benghazi that killed the much. Max, thank you very much. U. S. Ambassador there. So within that context, aqim, the situation in mali have been some what contained. Its the potential of it becoming another launch pad for terrorism throughout the okay, sir, youre a region that has people scared and pushing for more lebboutski, im a lebboutski, action. Thats terrific, but im but that said, up until this very busy as i imagine you point, aqim has been a huge are. What i can do for you, sir. Fundraiser for itself well, sir, its this through kidnapping for ransom. Theyve made more than 30 rug i have, it really tied Million Euros<\/a> after the room together. Kidnapping french citizens you told brad on the because the french will pay for the nationals to come phone, he told me. Back. Up until this point, they where do i fit . Well, they were looking hadnt taken an american hostage and now they have at for you, these two guys. Least three. So they would view i will say it again. Perhaps mali as the next you told brad on the phone, afghanistan or having the he told me. Possibility of being the i know what had, yes, yes. Next afghanistan before 9 11 oh, so you know that they when in fact it was a haven were trying to piss on your for al qaeda. Rug. Did i urinate on your there are parallels there rug. I mean did you personally come and pee on my rug. Because in some ways, you know as one u. S. Official hello do you speak english. Said to me half jokingly i will ask you again, did i its the worlds worst neighborhood. Urinate on your rug. You have islamic extrialists, no, like i said peed on you have al qaeda through aqim, you have drug my rug. Traffickers up there in the i want to understand this north of mali. Ef rhyme tie rug is in and you have just rebels who want some independence to this fair city i have to compensate the person. Split the country in two. Come on, man, im in the trying to scam anybody here. So in that mix you have that worry that you can create you know, i am just within the chaos a command youre just looking for a and control center. Handout like every other are like what you saw al qaeda do through the taliban in afghanistan. You employed mr. Lebowski. So thats the fear that it can become a launch pad. Wait, let me explain something to you. Rose on another matter i am not mr. Lebouwski. Finally, when dow expect the secretary of state to i am mr. Lebowski, im testify about ben gazee ben gaddee . The dude, sos that what you secretary clinton will testify on capitol hill call me, or that is his about benghazi the 23rd. So that will be shortly dudeness or duder or, you after the inauguration on know,el dud erino if you are monday. She will speak before the not not brevity thing. Senate Foreign Relations<\/a> are you employed, sir. Committee and also answer questions from the house employed . Foreign Affairs Committee<\/a> and they will be open. The public will be able to you dont go out looking for a job dressed like that, listen that testimony from dow, on a weekday. Her. Dow have a sense they are anxious to do this because is this some what day they want to get out front and take the opportunity to this . Rose that was jeff bridges as the dude in the defend those things that could enbrothers 1998 movie have grown occupy around the the big will boughski. Benghazi, the political football it became . For years many have admired it really has become a his wisdom. Political footballment benghazi became in some ways a rorschach test for where later become the zen peacemakers on an you stand politically in International Order<\/a> of washington. Social activists. Secretary clinton and her advisors felt it was necessary for them to wait bridges and glassman were for her to go to the hill close friends, their conversations are about some until they had that review of lifes best subject its, love, happiness, creativity board that looked into the and of course the movies. Investigation in benghazi and said where they they have now collaborated on a new book called the failedment because she wants this testimony to be focused dude and the zen master. On what happens next and how i am pleased to have jeff they respond rather than who bridges back an bernie said what what when which glassman here at this table for the first time. Was the political football. So how does this come about . Is it likely to be her i went to a dinner that last appearance before a Congressional Committee<\/a> . Was honoring bernie and the it is likely to be her last appearance because senator kerry, of course, guy who wrote be here now. His hearing is set for the rose so that is when the friendship started. 24th, day after. At that dinner we got so hes going to be up there into a good conversations and then i think if i oddicians for her job and he remember right i did a is believed to be a shoein workshop and you came to the in terms of confirmation. Workshop. Yeah. And then after that we rose Margaret Brennan<\/a>, hung a little and we both thank you so much. Liked to smoke cigarses. Pleased to you have here. Come back often. So we hung some more, smoked thank you. Good to be here. Cigars and started talking. And found that not only great actor but i really our coverage of the events enjoyed hanging with him and in algeria and mali continue rapping. With a distinguished panel that is, we talked about of guests. Joining me from washington pax boot of the council on life in a good way, you know. Foreign relationment his new and he was a guy dhirb book is called invisible arm met a lot of actors, here armies a peter pharm, was a guy, jeff bridges who really was interest in a lot director of the africa of serious stuff. Center of the islamic and hi been working in that council and Jennifer Cook<\/a> world. Rose how did you go from there to a book . Director of the africa well, one day bernie says program at the centre for strategic and international studies. I am pleased to have them to me, by the way, you know all here. Max give me a sense of what you know about where we are that in the buddhist circles, at this moment . The dude is considered a zen i think charlie we are in master. A very early stages of what and i said what are you talking about, man. Could be a very protracted he said oh yeah. I said come on, you know. You know, the coen brothers insurgency campaign. One of the things that i did in the course of doing the never mentioned Anything Research<\/a> for my new book is about you know, any kind of a calculated the average spirituality or zen or length of an insurgency anything. And he says there you go, since 1945. The coen brothers i said and the average length is oh, come on, meaning the nearly 10 years. The french just got in last week and so we have a long way to run. I think what we have coons are from japan s that essentially seen is that the a japanese word. French have been able to yeah, coon is a japanese blunt the advice of the islamist insurgents who have word, it is also a word that taken control of northern comes out of the whole mali, the french first use their strikes and now they that is what you were have some troops on the saying. Ground actually directly but those are, its one battling the rebels. And theres no question that way of studying zen is, the french can stop the there is a whole system of advancement but to actually working with these coons roll back the insurgents and which are questions or to gain control of the statements that cant be territory which they answered intellectually. Currently control is going to be a very difficult the first attempt is always protracted undertaking which to answer it intellectually. Will require more than the its always our first attempt on anything. Few hundred troops that the but in a coon study you french have currently dispatched to mali. Theyre going to need a lot have to answer them of help including from local mali forces and west african experiencely, you have to present it as a living example of your life. Rose right. Peacekeeping forces. Now unfortunately, you know, what is the sound of a the mallian forces have one happen clapping is a shown themselves to be famous one. Rose so here you go from utterly decrepit, corrupt, a friendship, to a continuation of a incompetent and the west kavr African Peacekeeping<\/a> conversation. And then he brings this forces are probably to the thing up and he says the going to be a lot better. So they are going to need a lebo whereski is riddled lot of buttress, and not just from french. With coon for modern time. I think it in the interest of the United States<\/a>, i said what do you mean, he britain and other western powers to aid these forces said an example would be the dude abides. On the ground, les these has come to light, shut islamist insurgents gain the [bleep] up, there is control of mali and turn it just a whole slew of them. Into a if you base for international terrorism. And he says what do you rose a kind of new think about writing a book about this. Afghanistan. I said oh, well, that could thats the danger, that be kind of cool thing. Is certainly what they would like to see and in fact, it would be a chance to hang guess what, were seeing out and go up to montana and spend a few days. Veterans of the afghan war who are popping up. Get my dear friend alan coz these are transnational groups such as al qaeda and louski to take some of these the islamic magazinereb and pictures and record the thing. And so that is what we did. Rose and stayed for how others which might not only long, about a week. In mali were seeing them about five days or so. Rose an just talked and now fighting in algeria. Recorded. This is a transnational and just talked and he recorded it, yeah. Problem and it will require a transfat response. But these five days came on the back of about 10 rose Jennifer Cook<\/a> help me understand what is at years of conversations. Stake here, what is the National Interest<\/a> on the part of the United States<\/a> yeah. But generally, what is the rose . And a lot of cigars being threat to africa if mali is smoked and talked about. Rose the dedication is to all the hungry spirits. Who are the hungry spirits . Not being able if they are not able to thwart an for me, maybe i shoul islamist take over. Well, al qaeda and the islamic mugreb and other should thats sort of changed my life. Hi been hi started Islamist Groups<\/a> up in the studying zen in 58, so over north of mali for some time have been conducting hostage 50 years. Hi become a teacher, maybe for ransom operations, drug trafficking, cigarette by 1970. Smuggling and occasional in 76 i had an experience, attacks on regional targets i was working for Mcdonald Douglas<\/a> in california in the outside malis borders. Space industry. What has happened with the i was going to work in a collapse of the state in the capital of mali and the carpool. And i had an experience of fusion of all these groups what i call the hungry into a loose collection and spirits of the universe. Takeover of the north they thirsting and being hungry now control the three big for things, power, money, key cities in the north of mali, the fear is that they fame, food, all kinds of fortify themselves in those positions. They entrench themselves, thirsts. And i had this experience they become a magnet and a that those hungry spirits Training Ground<\/a> and a safe were nothing but me. Haven for terrorists and i was all of these this is what we call the oneness of criminal networks from across africa and even as life. And immediately what came up mr. Boot said from beyond. Is this, i need to work on and that from that position they can launch attacks feeding, trying to feed all against europe, against of that. So i changed my. Bigger targets within africa. Rose feed all the hungry and possibly in some in spirits. Yeah. So i changed the venue of my some eventuality, against work which had been a zen the u. S. Now the the ramifications center to society. So that was a big shift, of what happened in algeria instead of working strictly for those who were coming to and the strike against the gas installation there and a zen center to learn about zen, all that kind of stuff, the hostages being taken now i started work in the there really opens this up world of business and the world of social action and and internationalizes it the world of politics, you with a number of european know, in all of society. Citizens taking u. S. The venue shifted to the citizens and japanese as well. World. So the events of this last rose lets talk about some of the concepts starting with the dude week, the french incursion, abides. The islamists move south and that to me kind of goes the taking of the gas in tandem with another coon installation in algeria in the book which is the dude is not in. Really puts a whole dramatic rose yes. Well get to that one but go new spin on this and adds ahead. Momentum to the wol problem. But they kind of go together in my mind. Rose now what is the and the dude abides work connection with the algerian hostage taking . Where does he abide. He abide those where. Well, the thought is that, hes not in. And everythings a bit so therefore he abides everywhere. Unclear at this moment, but rose right. They have said that it is in thats it. Retaliation for the thats my hit on it, how algerians allowing france to about you, person. Yeah, so let me unpack it use their airspace in the mali intervention. And the thought is that one of the leaders of a splinter maybe for because many of group of aqim, has ordered us, right, all of us i should say, abide somewhere. We abide in the liberal his followers to conduct world, as a conservative world, the tea party world, this hostage taking. Or the i do, i work in the again a lot of this is fairly unclear. I think they are happening middle east in the plain very quickly there. World or the we abide in a it is not clear how direct the orders are. How direct the command and world which means that we control within aqim and shut Everything Else<\/a> out. These various groups is. The dude abides or abiding but that is what they are saying, that this is a retaliation for the french nowhere or not being in means that you are open to intervention. They want the french out and anything thats coming in. Against algeria for allowing so even though you might the french to use their still be working in those airspace. Fields, now are you open to peter, how did we get here . All the upons. We got here because for a and not become stuck to the number of years we have been ignoring the vast ungoverned opinions of the place you are abiding. Spaces of the sahara, hey, man. How do you do, dude. Ignoring the fact that al i wondered if i would see you again. Qaeda and islamic magreb, how have things been going. You know, strikes and engaging in criminal activities and putting a way gutters, ups and downs. A great deal of money, i got you. Millions of dollars actually from kidnapping for ransom, from the drug trade and yeah. Thanks, gary, take care, contraband and what we had man, got to get back. Was a perfect storm when the sure, take it easy, dude. Oh yeah. Overthrow of the qaddafi i know that you will. Regime freed up experienced yeah, well, the dude fighters, mercenaries who were available for other abides. Conflicts, weapons flowed and they had the al qaeda and islamic magreb and other groups had the money, the the dude abides. Wherewithal and the desire to sweep those things up and then the mallian state was i dont know about you, but far more brittle and weak i take comfort in that. Than we had given it credence to be. And as a result t all came its good knowing hes out together and in a space of there, the dude. Days last spring in march taking it easy for all of us malis government was overthrown and the islamists sinners. Seized control of an area sam is so good, man. Roughly the size of texas. Rose one of the notions if the french had not come in would akin to the dude abides is the french coming in certainly one needed to the philosophic idea of contain this threat. The problem was when the suffering. If the dude is abiding, french came in they didnt come in as he was saying sufficient force to actually turn back these islamist in terms of zen, suffering insurgents. They managed to block them in the town of koma in the never goes away. Middle area of mali but all we suffer because we have they did was swing to the right and seize a town which things we dont want or we dont have things we want. Is only about 200 miles whatever the situation. North of the capital. Since its going to change, it is now a game, weve seen the things that we want, we this before in other want to hold on to them. Insurgency situations of whack the mole. And then things change so there is that suffering. Rose where will the in the dude abides, if its support for those who overthrew the government really abiding then theres come from . Well, they have a lot of no attachment to anything and you dont feel that funds of their own at this suffering. That is, its still there, point. But its in that attachment that causes the breakdowns to grieve, the suffering can still cause pain. Pain will still be there. Sorrow will still be there. All those emotions are there. But if you are abiding, you know something sad comes up and you just cry, man. And you know, so all of that is still there. But not the psychological pain that we inflict in ourselves of saying why, why didnt it happen the way i expected it to happen. Heres we dont call them attachments but here is what i think i know and its not happening the way i know. Why is that going on. And we drive ourselves crazy. So i would say that the release of suffering as most people think about it is to just a biz, be with it. Back to the movie, the first clip we saw about the ruch, the rug connected the room. Yeah. Wass the concept out of that . Yeah. Help me here, thats kind of one of the inner questionses. The rug tied the room together. Yeah. So i am a zen teacher and the zen peace make certificate so i have successes that are teaching zens cath rick breasts, rabbies, sheikhs but in dudism, the word kbuda means to awaken. And it is awakened to oneness of life, the interconnectedness of life. And so a lot of the training or the practicing is to try to have people experience what that interconnectedness is all about. Nowadays our conscience has evolved so Everybody Knows<\/a> were all interconnected but they may not have experienced it. Well, the rug that ties the room together, what is that rug . Its pinning down in the zen terms and thats why i like willbowski, coy use thee metaphors that are daily metaphors in the buddhas language, what is that interconnectedness of life. The book is called the dude and the zen master. What do you help people will come away with. You know, ask you that question, im thinking the impetus to do the book, really didnt come out of like i want to leave a message it was just hanging with my buddy, really. And i guess maybe as i say that maybe some of the secondary stuff was to turn folks on to bernies work, zen peacemakers and also the stuff that im involved with hunger, get hungry and that kind of stuff. And you know, maybe turn folks on to bernie. Thats kind of because i, you know i got off on what he is all about. Rose and have been doing that for a while. Yeah. Rose but let me apply this to as well the idea, an help me bernie, to acting. How is all this applicable. Yeah. Rose in terms of how you approach acting . Yeah. Well, a lot of the things that later on, that is kind of a zennish type approach. Had those things before i really got into it. Knew it was zen. And a lot of that, you know s from my father, how he fought me when i was a kid, you know, working doing the part i was eight years old, he would talk about, you know, learning your lines and then being able to be kind of facile with if and actually, create some kind of emptiness or openness in yourself. So when the person says a line youre not waiting for his lips to stop before you say your line. Youre letting what he is saying kind of affect you. And that determines how you go. And so respond. And so i find that all these years i kind of approach it the same way. I learn my lines. I figure out how i think it would be an interesting way to do it. I think maybe five or six different ways to go. And then i show up for work and i do my best to let all that stuff drop way and see what my bigger self, you know, the other actors, the director of the weather, how all that informs me, just says thats sometimes i will say a prayer, you know, take me, you know, what are you going to do with me, man, you know. But there is also a sense that if its not exactly the way you might have imagined it, you may do something to break the moment. Oh, i say yes, yeah. Occasionally ill get, ill find bernie was talking about this suffering over suffering, you know, so sometimes when you think about you have gee, i really liked the way i was preparing for that thing in my room and now the direct certificate really not there and im kind of attached, man. I can feel it. So i will have this impulse to do something that kind of breaks that attachment, you know, where who i have impulse right now to show you i would go over there. I want to kiss you and make up your hair and go over and tweak your nipples or i grow on the ground and just scream or you know, do something that just kind of breaks the thing. And that helps. Yeah. That helps. One of the things that just recently finished a film with kevin bacon without i really enjoyed working with a lot. And there is a certain amount of the character was he is a very weird plot, funny, its a comedy, you know, we play Ryan Reynolds<\/a> and i play two dead cops who are hunting dead people who are prevend pretending to be alive. But you think that you have been doing this so long that you would kind of get over anxiety about performing. But you know, i dont. There is a certain anxiety i have right here talking with you because we are doing something that you know i wanted to come out. And its not scripted wants and its not scripted. You dont know where it is going. So kevin, you never know. Why should there be tensions but i can just notice it in myself, kind of a little tiny, so were doing a scene it was a particularly big scene but one of the first scenes i was doing with kevin. And he looks at me and looks at the other ackers and he says remember everything depends on this. Which is totally ridiculous. You know, and that kind of like lightens it up. But at the same time there has been a Little English<\/a> on that, that yeah, he is right. Everything does depend on just this moment. Whether we do it right now, thats what is significant. Were you a friend of no i did the training kind of when it first came out, before it had any negative pr. As kind of some people kind of have negative thoughts about it. And then i got involved maybe a couple years after i did the training i went to something, a forum that he had called the hunger project. And he was fascinating. All about ending world hunger. And he presented all the facts about hunger how terrible and prevalent it is in our world and how it is not a matter of not having enough food or money or not even not knowing how, we know how, it has been about creating the political willment and of course the poll figureses are supposed to represent us so what doe does what are you willing to do now that you know what the facts are. Are you just going to numb it, go back to sleep or dow want to do something and not just something, you know, a guess sure that will scratch your guilt itch but something that kind of fits in with your life that you can sustain, you know,. Rose i kind of commitment. Yeah, a commitment that works naturally with what you have naturally do. And so i helped create an Organization Called<\/a> the End Hunger Network<\/a> all about working with the media. Saying the media must have some role in ending hunger. You went to political conventions too, didnt new. Since then that was we are talking maybe 30 years ago, and about maybe 15 years ago i kind of shift from world hung tore hunger into area, some you are skaeft nets had holes in it and people were, you know, huger was really a terrible thing. And so i shifted to hunger hearing, about two years ago i met this guy, billy shore. Has he ever done a sho, so great. Really committed. Yeah. Used to work with gary hart. Yes, right, and he had a campaign, has a campaign called no kid hungry that i am the National Spokesperson<\/a> for. And its all about going from state to state working with government never governors to make sure that all 9 kids in their state have food, you know. And hunger is basically a poverty issue. Thats what really causes it, you know. But childhood hunger thats something that is not as complex as poverty, its a good kind of handle to grab on to. At the same time malnutrition can have per sways pervasive affects on health and development. Of course, and our National Security<\/a>, how we are going to compete. Like you said, i went to both conventions, the republican convention. And the Democrat Convention<\/a> and im happy to say that the chairman of both the democratic governors and the republican governors are both of them theyre on board, governor mcdonald from virginia. And omalley yeah, theyre both hon it. So they wanted republican and democrat so i wanted to go to both conventions and you know, celebrate the guys who are on board and trying to gets more guys on board to take advantage of this over a billion dollars of federal funding that is available to states, many states an even aware of it, to help feed the kids in their state. What is the power of zen . The power of zen, can i do it as an example . Yeah. Im bernie, and i dont even have to think about it, bernie knows that without knowing, its not a question of knowing. The fingers, the hands, the head its all connected. All one thing. Imagine that this hand had some kind of illness and thought it was separate. And gave a name, its joe, this hand same thing, its mary, now joe gets a gash, blood is pouring out. And mary looks at joe and says oh, there is blood pouring out. I should do something about it. But maybe, maybe not, maybe i will get sued. I done know thinking about medical stuff. I never trained. In fact im wearing a if you dress. I might get all bloody so mary walks away, joe bleeds to death, bernie dies, mary dies. Imagine you have an experience in whichnery an joe disappear, its all one thing, its all about bernie. The hand is gashed. Now this hand just does whatever it can. Does the best it can to do something. It doesnt walk away. It takes care. Now if this hunger, the hands dont fight over who is going to get the merit of feeding bernie who is hungry, now whichever hand is closer, picks up food and sees it, takes care. So the power of zen, you just now project that further. I made a homeless person in the street. Its not me. So i cross the street. I dont want to see that you know i dont want to see that kind of suffering or whatever. If that becomes me, if the experience of zen, if you experience that oneness, now i cant cross the street. I say hello, i say how are you. I do whatever. I do the best i can, prab giving money but thats not important. Whats the most important thing. To give love, to love that. So that can keep going and going and now thats the power of zen. Imagine if we as a country felt that way. We would be taking care of everything without, to the best we can. Doesnt mean we can solve the things. But we would be doing the best we can, instead of denying it. Arguing about it. Keeping to our own positions, you know. Thats the power of zen that interconnectedness it is the rug that ties the room together. S thiss the power. I think we now got it we have it. The book is called the dude. And the zen master. The dude is with it. The zen master is with us. Bernie glassman and jeff bridges, thank you my friend. Just be hacking with you. Just hanging with you. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications<\/a> captioned by Media Access Group<\/a> at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org funding for charlry rose what been provided by the cocacola company, supporting this Program Since<\/a> 2002. And american express. Additional funding provided by these funders and by bloomberg captioning by vitac, underwritten by Firemans Fund<\/a> announcer the following kqed production was produced in hidefinition. Its all about licking your plate. The food is just fabulous. I should be a psychoanalyst for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. I had a horrible experience. 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