Worthy leadership. And the great achievements of life, of the society were not translated into political vision, both for the country and regarding we conclude which a conversation about fashion and photography with giancarlo giammetti. An i believe designers have their own style, what fits their own style. They dont have to read it in the papers say oh, she say that my collection was boring, that i dress for or i dress for this i think that they have it, the great companies, stlaurent, valentino, chanel, armani, versace, they stick to their own vision and thats a success that make them forever. Rose israel and the world of fashion when we continue. Ment funding for charlie rose was provided by the following additional funding provided by these funders. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From our captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. History was made as the jewish state of israel was born. Conceived in strife and weaned in violence, israel has flour shalled to become a constructive place in world affairs. Rose it resulted in the creation of the state of israel ban in 1897 it was lead by london lawyer herbert bentrick and a delegation of 21 british jews. Against all odds the nation these men had a essentialed stands today. Great sand sonari shavit believes the survival of israel is not a foregone conclusion. A popular israel columnist and the author of a new book called my promise land the triumph and tragedy of israel. Joining me now for a conversation about israel are ari shafit, and david recommend nick editor and chief for the new yorker an Jeffrey Goldberg author an columnist for bloomberg view. Lets get the praise over at the beginning. What do you think this book does . What does it accomplish coming at the time that it does when theres a lot of things going on in the middle east whether israeli negotiations with the palestinians, whether its iran or whether its syria. Well, i should probably indemnify myself. Oifs known ari for a long time. Before i knew him i knew him as a great columnist. And there is a review coming out next sunday in the sunday book review. And my favorite sentence perhaps in it is he says this is the least tandencious book i have ever read about israel. It is the least onesided, the least, its not hurling bricks. It both loves its country and recognizes the innate problems with it. The founding crimes, even, in 1947, 1948. And tries to grap well that and recognize just as with the founding of this country, that were in, there are terrible things about the United States and its history. We know slavery was endemic to it for over a century. This book is a history of israel, a deep history that also is deeply passionate and completely aware of itself. Its not a memoir but its infused by aris family, personality, and the journalism that hes done over the course of, i dont know, 30 odd years as a writer for arts. Its not the only book about israel but its the most extraordinary book that ive read on the place since almost the book israeliies pub will beed in the late 60s. Do you really want me to praise him . Tell me about the book. Fine. I can do that. The interesting thing to me is that we in america have and American Jewish community have a very brutal kind of conversation about israel. Either its israel all the way, its never done anything wrong, i mack you latly conceived, guildless or the alternative view is that israel is some sort of, you know, carrier of all of the sins of k08 onialism and imperialism and in hubris and ar sytoo complicated for that. And i think this book will allow the reader and will allow his audience to understand israel as a deeply complicated place that he loves very much. One of the things that comes through, there are some extraordinary passages of criticism of the founding of the state, the way the state is organized today. But what comes through is his love for the place as both a normal place and extraordinary place. And we dont have that israel is object find in a kind of way in our conversations in america. Its it doesnt exist, its just a symbol. And he brings it down to earth and he allows people to understand it in all of its complicated wonder. Rose someone said that you set out to get inside the dna or you got inside the dna of israel. And someone said to me that you liked that, that that in a sense, some have caught what you were trying to do. I hope this is the case. I think my initial feeling was that really the narrative was lost. I think that both israelis and people talking about israel have lost because of the daily friction and debate and the ongoing coverage, they lost sight, we lost sight of the big picture. And i thought that my mission is really to try to rewrite, to bring back the basic narrative again in a way that is personal, that is human. This is nonfiction that tries to be as fictional as possible in the kind of literary way, to bring history down to the human level. Deal with individuals, not just concept. Combine insights with emotion and it is really my own searching as an israel. I think when i went out i asked myself three questions. Why israel, whats israel and will israel. And i tried to answer these questions not in a kind of but through the stories, through bringing back the amazing story which is both miraculous and tragic. And i tried to root that too the book. So the narrative will be restored and the discussion both in israel and regarding israel, and definitely in this country will, and again hopefully start a fresh in a more reasonable sensible and comprehensive manner. Rose you talk about the triumph and the tragedy of israel. You seem to suggest, im simplifying this way too much, i suspect, that what has to happen, if theres ever to be some agreement between palestinians where they can live with their own state and israel where they can live with security s that the israelies have to recognize some terrible things they have done. And the palestinians have to go beyond and find someplace beyond resentment about what happened. Absolutely. I think it is my moral obligation as an israeli to recognize that we have done wrong to our other, to the palestinians. And i go to that in great detail and where a lot of pain in the book. And i must tell you, this is something i feel almost on a daily basis as i live in that countryment but at the very same time i think its the palestinians moral and reasonable obligation to overcome that trauma. Because there were, i described in the trauma of leader, the the city in. Rose tell because it is. It is a city in mid israel that was conquered by the israeli for itses in 1948 and all the population was driven out. And so i think its my obligation to see that, to see what had happened and to put it in a kind of, as honest as i can about that. But it is the palestinian obligation to overcome their trauma. Because there have been in history, in recent history things much worse than lido. And im not talking about what evil powers did, what the british did in dresden or what was done to the czeches, that is much worse than lida. And yet other people in europe and elsewhere have overcome it they did not just keep on lingering on that. So i say to the palestinians, yes, i acknowledge that. I recognize that. I feel for you. I think there is a moral obligation for me to establish your independent state but you please move on. Dont be stuck with that painful past. Because thats part of the palestinian, the problem with the palestinian political, the culture that the victims, the addiction to victimhood is very dangerous. So yes, i understand you, i have empathy i want the dialogue to be based on the past, not ignoring but lets move on. You have interviewed and know well Benjamin Netanyahu. I do. Rose has he read the book . Not that i know of. But he was given advice recently to read the book. So i hope will. Rose but freedman in the column and probably by other people. My point is though because you know him, does he believe what you have come to believe here in your judgement based on conversations. That israel has to be preparedded to acknowledge and move forward, the palestinians have to be prepared . I think, look, unlike many of my peers in the israeli media, national media, left of centre, i am not into netanyahu bashing. I see there ask some virtues to israels Prime Minister. I think hes right on some matters. And yet there are several things that are deeply flawed in what he presents to the world. One of them is the lack of hope in his vision. The lack of generosity. The lack of willingness to reach out. And the other is this lack of empathy to the others. By the way, hes not very he doesnt have a lot of empathy to many israelis. But i would like to see, and never mind the person. I would like an israeli leader who on the one hand fights for israel, defends israel guards its security but reaches out to the palestinians to try to achieve some sort of emotional breakthrough, to speak to them as humans, as individuals, not just as adversaries. And i really hope we will have that leader who will combine the two. Be tough, be peaceful wishing, and really speak out to the palestinians in the way that i think we should. With real empathy and understanding their tragedy. Rose in the challenge facing israel today, tell me how you guys see it. What is the challenge for netanyahu and palestinians beyond this very important idea in order to i mean john kerry is over there trying to get something going. We just read there was a long 90 minute conversation between netanyahu and president obama. Well, one of the problems, let me just step back for 1 second. Because this is Something Interesting about the israeli left, of which ari is a member. And this has to do with todays atmosphere. One of the things he said is one of the things the palestinians have to do is get over their resentment. One of the things ari does in this book only intermittently because he is a good israeli leftist and he has a jewish masco chis particular streak, a little bit, or maybe a lot. Get the phrase out in the beginning. Jewish, that is a compliment. But what he does also is he reminded palestinians or more to the points the arabs who took the palestinians, took charge of the palestinians in 1948 and reminded them that the catastrophe that befell them was partially selfinflicted. That lida, that these battles and massacres did not happen in a vacuum. They happened after the arabs decided to try to kill the nascent state of israel. I mean the message for the right is look at what look at what happened in the name of zyonism. The message for the left is the arabs have agency here too. And they made decisions that brought about catastrophe both for themselves and for the jews. We should also say the israeli left is a lot more complicated than just ari. There are people well to the left of ari on a number of questions. And frankly missing in this conversation is any palestinian voice. And i would hope that this book is also read by some palestinians and who have argument and answering histories with it. That is an extremely useful thing. You ask about the Peace Process now. I mean i think considering whats going on in the greater middle east, in syria, with iran, and with in within palestine itself to say nothing of the dimings of the israeli political situation which is still quite right leaning, it would be quite a miracle for john kerry to get his wrb and for all of us to get our wish which is a stable two state solution. It is not lost on me or ari or anybody at this table that frustration is so deep about this that other solutions are often brooded about on the left which is well to the left of ari. Which is to say a one state solution discussion. Rose where we are today, tomorrow and tomorrow and move to iran in just a moment but jeffrey, i dont understand what john kerry is promoting. I dont know if john kerry knows. You know, i interviewed john mccain last week at a program in washington. And he called kerry a human wrecking ball am i guess he had been listening to myly cyrus or something, i dont know what. But i think thats unfair. Get that out of your mind, as quickly as you can. Its probably unfair but he does seem to be sort of pingponging his way through the middle east, causing consternation among all of americas allies, arab and israeli, wherever he goes. There is something very noble about this the previous secretary of state did not want to deal with the middle east Peace Process because it seemed like kind of a losing proposition this is kerrys last job. Hes not running for anything and he wanted to take this on. Its not the propitious moment to take it on and hes up against, and ari does this split very well. You know, there are legitimate worries about iran. And israel could help itself in the International Understanding of israels position by probably giving a little bit more on the palestinian front. Theres no linkage there. Even a lot more. Well, just to start, a little bit more and so what happens, unfortunately for john kerry is that these two issues comingled in the last couple of weeks. And he alienated netanyahu, maybe justifiably but alienated netanyahu by talking about the palestinian process and making some hard demands on israel precisely at the point hes trying to selis real on an iran package israeli doesnt like so things sort of became chaotic in the last couple of weeks. And not very hopeful or helpful. Being positively catalytic they were not, they were negatively catalytic. Lets begin with three issues here. Lets begin with the palestinians. I may just Say Something about the book its important to me to stress that beyond the way i deal with the conflict and all that goes with it, this is really like a celebration of israel. And this is, its not only about all these heavy things because the fact i mean the book is really what i say about israel that israel is an amazing phenomenon of vitality against all odds. And. Its one part and a significant part. Very important part. And its and again i think that after you do, youre honest enough to dealing with the problems, the things, the conflict and so on, you may step, take a step back and look at what the wonderous place it is and what a miracle with its manmade miracle israel is. And this is very important to strike. The problem is that this great Energy Israel has in economy and the culture, in arts, in every day life, in night life, israel is a very lustful sexy creative place. And its wonderful to live there actually when there are no wars. The problem is that that was not translated into political energy. I mean we are, we have a failed political system. We have, dont have a worldly leadership and the great achievements of life, of the society were not translated into political vision. Both for the country and regarding peace. We are a disconnect with palestinian. In my mind the great failure of the israeli central left and Israeli Community is it stuck to this plan a idea. Either final status tomorrow, peace now, peace ceremony at the white house lawn with nobel prizes, or nothing. Now its most of the time it was nothing and therefore you have more settlements and things are getting worse on the ground. I think that the basic mistake was the lack, we should put in the distinction between occupation and peace. The left and International Community were right in saying occupation was unacceptable and settlements were wrong. They were wrong in promising peace tomorrow. My great fear is that secretary kerry to whom si have a great admiration. I totally agree with jeff, i think he is a moral person, a noble person, hes trying to save the two state solution. But if he gets it wrong, god forbid, he might bury thetostate solution. And i do not understand this is not a personal matter of just him. Rose what would getting wrong be. Exactly. I will tell you exactly. I think that the right, i think we need a new peace conference, regarding the palestinians, it has to be moving to some sort of if possible interim agreement, if not possible, coordinated unilateralism reretreat gradually question. Not retreat overnight to the 67 lines but begin to dismantle settlements. We give, what i want is the palestinians to have it better every year, every quarter. I want them to have at every given moment more political space, more economic space, more geographic space than the one before. I think that right now because i understand their trauma and their sickee, they cannot make that geological, almost theological concession needed for final status. And israel on its side is so confused that it cannot. So rather than go for a account el in the sky lets go for the at any time on the ground that can grow, work for a tate that we gradually awe cassiusly retreat while the palestinians are doing their nation building with the constructionive palestinian forces that are there building it. The great problem with this, and i dont disagree, but the great difficulty of this is this is a problem that began in 1967. 1967, so its the great majority of the existence of the state of israel. Not a long time in the history of the middle east. No, but in the political, its almost all the time in the history of israel. And how many generation of palestinians which has created the political culture that you described. And to expect that to ease tensions very quickly is you know difficult. Look, i think actually president obama got it right and then got it wrong. In 2009. Because i think got he right then got it wrong. I will tell you why. His idea of settlement freeze i think was the right idea. The way he tried to implement it was wrong. Why is that the right idea. Because as we speak, the two state solution is bleeding to death with the settlement going on. So you have to stop that. But it had to be beyond 9 bloc, i dont want to get not details. The way it was put forward was wrong. If we have the kind, the right kind, is the sophisticated freeze effort, the palestinians immediately will feel some change because the settlements will stop. And then you can begin a process that will be much more humble, modest. It wont be that ambitious it will not bring nobel prizes but it will bring a closure to two state solution. Ari, youre describing, you said are you against castles in the sci but you are describing something that is ambitious given the reality on the ground which is there is no sign at all, without moving to your left now there is no sign at all that the Israeli Government is interested in put aside the issue of rolling back the settlements, theyre not interested in freezing the settlement growth so were still in a little bit of a fantasy land. That is what i said before. I believe that just as i believe in the vitality of israel, i think that if the israeli silent majority, the Israel Ce