Method of the people, the method of political method to be used, part determined by the oppressor himself, if the oppres oppressos peaceful means, we will never result to violence. It is when the oppressor in addition to repressive policies uses violence that the oppress have had no alternative but to retaliate by similar forms of action. And therefore, the pains, the blood that was spilled, the responsibility for that lies squarely on the soldiers. Rose mandela for the hour, next. Funding for charlie rose but provided by the following. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Et it fall, let there be work,b, god bless south africa, thank you. Rose the former president of south africa died today, he was 95, he was affectionately known by those closest to him was a man for all seasons, his life gave meaning to millions, he spent 27 years in prison for his fight for racial equality in south africa, after his release in 1990 he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and served as president of south africa for five years. The power of mandela cannot be captured in the snapshot of his achievements, there was also the man himself, he was a quiet man in many ways, but with great power to influence, a father of six who is also the father of a nation, a country, and a philosophy. Mandela was born in 1918 in a small village in the eastern cape of south africa, his work campaigning against a ruling National Partys apartheid policies grew in the coming years. In 1963, he was brought to stand trial for plotting to over throw the government by violence. He famously said at his trial, i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve, but if need be, it is an idea for which i am prepared to die. After stepping down as president , he traveled the world and worked tirelessly to advance his agenda of equality and democracy, mandela retired from public life in 2004, stating that he wanted to engage in quiet rea reflection, he is surd by his wife michelle and three children, joining me now to take a measure of this man, are two people who knew Nelson Mandela very well, rick stengel is a former managing editor of time and coauthor of mandelas autobiography, long walk to freedom and also mandelas way, lessons on life, love and courage, Jerry Inzerillo is president and ceo of img artist and a close friend of mandelas in a moment we will not only be joined by them but former mayor of new york city, david dinkins. Let me begin with you, jerry, you knew Nelson Mandela for 20 years. 22 years. Rose godfather to your daughter. Yes. Rose near the father, know the family. Yes. Very well. Rose tell me how they are handling this, because they have to have expected it. Yes. I think it is clear to see that, you know, especially with respect to mrs. Michelle he is a very gracious, elegant woman, very dignified woman, you know, mrs. Mandela, win any mandela the girls, nani, zuni they have been beautiful through this whole process. I think there is a profound sense of sadness, because when you finally get the word that, you know, the chief is gone, you know, it is overwhelming but i think there is an equal amount of joy and festivity and people celebrating, okay, now this major event has happened, but i think the family is actually very dignified and holding up very well. Rose what do we know what is going to happen between now and the actual funeral day . Yes, there is, you know, there is a number, a series of protocols that have been put in place by the South African government are executing, obviously on the tenth there will be a huge rally in soweto, you know, Archbishop Tutu will preside over the funeral, the funeral is on the 15th and i would anticipate it would be one of the largest gatherings of heads of state in, you know, in modern history. You may see more heads of state attend mandelas funeral that john f. Kennedys funeral so it is going to be very elaborate protocol that has been put in, regrettably because of his extended illness the one easy part about that is it was able to widen the logistics because therthere was a lot more time to plan, when he went into the hospital on june 8th if something happened on june 9th or 10th. Rose today, bill writing says mandela long wanted a quiet exit, but that when he was in pretoria hospital, there was nothing, it was anything but quiet. But he did get to have that quiet, i assume, when he went back with them . Or not . You know, i think, charlie, he was, many of us, i dont know if i speak for jerry about this, we said our good bu to him a while back, he hasnt been himself for a number of years, and so it was unclear how involved he was in any of these preparations, certainly the man we know would have always said i dont want a big funeral, just take me to where my ancestors are, but i think he is a littler bit disingenuous about that, i think he would be of two minds about that, why such a small funeral . So he i dont think he would want this threering circus, but i also think what he would approve of is the South African government using the passing of Nelson Mandela to demonstrate the competence of south africa, the fact that south africa works as a modern democracy, like they did with the world cup, yes, exploit that and i think that is what they are trying to do. Rose okay. I want both of you to do the following thing for me. There is the myth of Nelson Mandela, there is the reality of Nelson Mandela, and then is the Nelson Mandela that you knew and there is the Nelson Mandela who obviously understood who he was and what he was and had time to reflect on all of this. Tell me about the man, just well, i have been i have talked a lot, i have talked to you about rose this morning. About the myth of him being a st. He hated being called a saint, and he wasnt a saint. He wasnt a saint for all kind of reasons, in terms of his own private behavior, which doesnt even matter, but he wasnt a saint because he was ultimaly a pragmatic politician. He, you know, people compare him to gandhi, people compare him to Martin Luther king, he said to me, he said, for those men, nonviolence was a principle. For me, nonviolence was a tactic. I used it as long as it was successful, but when it stopped being successful, i turned the anc into a military armed wing because my plate goal, my overriding principle was premium for my people and justice for my people and anything that would get me there was what road i would take, thats a pragmatist, a pragmatic politician, not a saint. Rose jerry . Yes, you know, i agree, rick is heartfelt on that because he was very pragmatic but one of my reflect shunls after 20 plus years is how real he was. I mean, you know, if you saw him flirtatious or joyful or festive or playful, it was that way when you were behind the scenes or when you were in front of the camera. But wow know, when he went out on any public appearance, howie was being, how he was being projected, how he was moving, i will tell you a very interesting story when we were back back as a family to see him right at towards the end, when the world cup was there. We walked into have just a little personal time with him and he said to me, how did we do . And that is an amazing comment, because he was so interested in how the country reflected around the world, how the image reflected, and but, you know, i would talk to him about, there was a lot of time inbetween protocols and inbetween visits where you are hanging out, four or five hours at a time and i would say what was it like when you were alone what did you think about . And he could be very sweet, very genuine and very insightful. Rose and you said he had the right touch with whether you were whether you were for or not for. Yes, the clear thing and, you know, there is several interviews of what the principal thing rob and i missed in prison when you said you have been here so many years what do you miss . You know, it was newspapers, it was type of food, it was type of clothing but the number one thing all the prisoners said they missed was the laughterer, laughter of children so when he got out of prison, and started seeing the way his new life was hevolving i mean he was just joyful and the Nelson MandelaChildrens Fund was never work for him. He all of those appearances and, you know, i have been with him many, many times in that, he just loved children, he loved people, i mean, he would walk out of the house with the security detail, they would be furious with him, lets go for a walk and ring peoples door bells and they would open the door and he would say, hi, i am Nelson Mandela. Now i knew him so long ago when he used to do that and people didnt know who he was when he range the doorbell, we would go to these little villages. Rose this is what year . This was in 92 and 93. Rose right. So when we stayed in the outside of mantata where he built his house we would take these long Early Morning walks, 4 30, 5 00 a. M. And walk to different villages and people did not know who he was. They thought he was a visiting chief or ahead man, i mean it was just fantastic and he loved that. He couldnt love it more when someone actually didnt recognize him and to bear jerry out i think he is actually better with four years olds than 94yearolds, he loved children, and he loved holding them and there is that wonderful story that not many people know on the day of his release, february 11th, after he walked through the gates, which we all saw he was supposed to give a speech in the grand parade, the car got lost and he ended up elsewhere and how do we get to downtown cape town and white woman with a pram, you know, wheeling her baby along this sidewalk, and the car door opened, Nelson Mandela popped out, the day of his release and he turned to her and said i am Nelson Mandela may i hold your baby . And he took this infant in some adorable little girl in his arms and then asked her directions how to get to the grand parade, but he had not held a baby in 27 years. Rose and. And you know it is interesting because years later he wanted to go on vacation but he wanted to go where he and the family could just be quiet and not be Nelson Mandela, and he went to saint jerome, and we got a call that night and it is a very emotional call and the family is very excited because it is the first time he had ever set foot in the ocean, put his foot in the ocean. Rose and he is like 70 something years old. Right. And unimaginable amount of years, like 40 years he had never been in the ocean and the sensation and, you know, by that time his legs, you know, were hard to move and stuff like that, and he was just so boyish issue with the fact that he got to walk with the ocean. Rose nobody knows what it is like to be imprisoned and have none of those things that we consider just part of life, the ocean being able to hold a baby, did history, did he choose history. Or did history choose him . I think more than most, i mean, i am a big believe never the english expression which is a lovely expression, come at the moment, come at the man, history makes the man when we need somebody, they come forward, but he more than most combined both, it was his genetic endowment, what he learned in that moment in time. The great walter zulu which was his mentor told me this lovely story when Young Mandela who first came to johannesburg to study law walked into walter zulus Real Estate Office in soweto, walter said to me, we were just trying to become a mass movement, and then one day a mass leader walked into my office. Rose he knew it . He knew it, he was tall, he was handsome and one of the things walter always said, that man could smile, people didnt smile in the fifties, politicians you lo politicians pictures from the fifties nobody is smiling, Nelson Mandela is beaming, he was the head of ahead of his time and walter recognized it. Rose yes. What would he talk about . You know, it is very interesting because you could lead him in certain directions, and when you got to a point of intimacy with him where he was used to you being around and trusted you, because, you know, he was very, very principled if you talked out of turn or gossiped or Something Like that, you could bet that the finger was going to be waved at you. But you could say to him, were you lonely . You know, what did you miss . And then what happened is that he said, you know, sometimes i feel more lonely now than i did when he as in robin island, because, you know, he would work. All day long and plenty of times we would go back to the house and, you know, or he would go to the house to pick him up and sitting alone in the chair, but, you know, it was a great, great responsibility, but i do want to say that when he first got out of prison he had to go to a dinner one night and one of his friends picked him up in the car and had to drive him to a dinner, and but realized he had no money, so he stopped with mandela and went over to an atm and put the card in and mandela saw cash coming out of a wall, but mandela didnt know, he didnt know what an atm was, and he said to the guy who took him, what was that . You know, what was that . Put a card in and bring money out and it was a very cute thing because that at his inauguration we had the privilege of doing the heads of state luncheon and i thought it would be clever to take that picture that everybody is showing of him swearing in on the day and i held open three photo labs in pretoria and we had 1,500 copies of this made, and after we pulled the salad course and served the soup course, we had a beautiful gold, and white embossed thing saying thank you for attending the first democratically free president ial inauguration, and we put the picture in. But when i went to show it to medeva it was only a few minutes at 4 00 and he looked at it like a boy, astonished, really sweet. Rose how did you become his coauthor of his autobiography, rick . I had written a book about south africa and in 1990 called january sun, and when little brown who signed up mandela to do his autobiography was looking for into someone to write it bill film lips who was then editor in chief and then became ed for of the book had read january sun and asked me if i would do it and of course it was an offer i couldnt refuse, no one could refuse it and it was just the most extraordinary experience. Rose how do you think he, what do you think he would like for us to be talking about now. The . Well, i think he would like us to be talking about how south africa can grow and progress and evolve after he is gone, and that he had set the template for democratic, nonracial capitalistic country that will thrive in the 21st century. I think that is what he would like us to talk about. One of the things i noticed in all the interviews we did, he was selfconsciously modest, but what i would say, when you did this, and he would say, no, richard, it was we, the anc but when i would say when the anc did this, he would say, no, richard, that was me, so i think he is a little bit ambivalent so he would love us to be talking about him in the referential, warm and loving way we are but i think he, remember, you know, the struggle is my life, he said, and he wanted to make sure his country and his people were provided for. Rose south africa. Your wife is out african. Both from cape town. Rose wow. How did you begin to know him and work with him . I got to meet him on his extraordinary historic visit to new york and, you know, being ceo of the hotels at the time i helped out on the logistics and our beloved friend, Robert De Niro and his generosity, wanted a major, did one of the major parties and receptions when he opened up now the famous trifecta bar and grill we became acquainted and started talking, he said to me, before i go home to south africa, is there any way you can introduce me to Elizabeth Taylor . And i didnt know Elizabeth Taylor but i knew Michael Jackson so i called michael jack son and i do not Elizabeth Taylor but can we introduce him when he goes to los angeles and michael says, yes. So he calls me back a few minutes later and he says, yes, Elizabeth Taylor would be very happy to meet mr. Mandela, but on the condition that i come. So i said, michael, i cant, i cant promise that, i mean, i will ask mr. Mandela. So i go to him and i say look, i dont really know Elizabeth Taylor buzz Michael Jackson does but he says if she comes he would like to accompany her and he said would be fine, who is Michael Jackson . You can see him. Jerry, he later told me the story of meeting Elizabeth Taylor and again this is Nelson Mandela, man, can you imagine, me, Nelson Mandela, meeting Elizabeth Taylor. Yes, right. You know, when we were trying to change the image of south africa to come out of the, you know, apartheid era, one of the tactics that we wanted to use was to show all of the beautiful visualizations of south africa by getting on tv in many countries around the world. So we signed a fiveyear contract to do ms. World pageants at sun city because we would get into all of those television markets and we could show the animals and the culture and the food and all positive reinforce this one of the a favorite things when he would meet the 90 girls each year and then after the second year, when, you know, when the tension of is the logistics working we played a little joke on him, because we asked all the girls to wear bright colored lipstick and we have the picture he had like 40 kisses on his face with all different colors lipstick. Rose we are pleased to have joining us the ho