This is a conversation we recorded at the frick museum where the goldfinch was on exhibition. The journey that i want to take the reader on always is the journey that i loved most when i was reading as a child just this galloping gleeful you dont know whats going to happen next and i dont want my books ever to be an Amusement Park ride that is sort of very predictable up, down, up, down and you wind around the track and end up in the same place. I want the car to jump the track. I want the car to be out in the woods somewhere and you dont know where you are and you are wondering where the Amusement Park is and dont know how to get back. Rose we conclude with New York Times photographer Linsey Addario. Rose and what are the children like . Are their faces different . Their faces are traumatized, a lot of them in jordan have seen a lot. Theyve come out of serious fighting, bombing, theyre violent. When i first went in april they were throwing rocks nonstop. They most of the children are not in school so now you have syrian children who have missed two, three years of school. Thats a huge amount. Rose quantum computing, donna tartt and Linsey Addario when we continue. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. This is the inside of one of our dilution refrigerators. All of this infrastructure is to basically operate the chip at a temperatures thats two orders s of magnitude colder than interstellar space. Rose this is in this weeks time magazine. It investigates quantum computing and a Company Called dwave that manufactures Quantum Computers. Lev grossman wrote the story. Im pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. Thank you. Rose this caught my eye, the cover of time magazine. It promises to solve some of humanitys most complex problems. Its backed by jeff bezos, nasa and the c. I. A. , each one cost 10 million and operates at 459 degrees fahrenheit below zero and nobody knows how it actually works. And then you call it the infinity machine. What are we talking about . Well, this is a new kind of computer. We are talking about something that works on tpraepbt paradigm from everything thats been built since the 1950s or so up. Rose the whole digital revolution. The whole digital revolution. Were tapping into a new kind of force in computing. Rose a new kind of force . Thats right. Rose and it comes from quantum physics in part . Thats right. Computers as we have now as complex as they are, they operate under what t laws of what we call classical physics which is new tonian things we see in daily life but things apply differently when you get to the subatomic level. Rose and that is . Subatomic particles, photons, electrons, that sort of thing. They play by different rules and under those rules you have a lot of exotic phenomena which seem very counterintuitive to us. Things like superposition. A quantum system can be in two different states simultaneously. Rose what does that mean . laughs well, to bring it into the realm of computing regular computers process data in the form of 1s and 0s. When off quantum computer it also works with 1s and 0s but its individual bits which they call quantum bits or qbits can be 1 and 0 or 1 and 0 at the same time. Time. Rose and that gives you the potential to do what . Well, superposition is part of the picture but what that gives you is basically if youve got a bit that can be in two states at the same time it gives you the option the option of performing two operations at the same time. Rose so therefore you can do things much faster . Much faster. Very much faster. And the power increases exponentially. If you have two bits you can do four things at the same time. Three bits eight things. And that very quickly that doubling takes you into very large numbers, larger than the number of atoms in the universe. Rose so that leads me to this obvious question. What are the Practical Implications of quantum computing . Well, once you start digging into quantum computing you realize very quickly that everybody youre dealing with is a genius and that not all the geniuses agree with each other. Rose so theres differences here. There are differences of opinion on that score. Rose as to what the the application of quantum computing . Thats right. These things are very alien. Very different from conventional computers and one of the problems we have with them basically is figuring out how to ask them the right questions. How to program them with the algorithms we need to get useful answers out of them and the question is what kind of answer cans we get out of them, we know some of that and some we dont know. I i and what are the right questions to ask . Well, for example, theres an algorithm called shores algorithm which has to do with encryption. Basically Quantum Computers could factorize very large numbers very fast. They can do problems that would take conventional computers literally centurieses to do. Rose centuries . Yeah. Rose and they can do them . They can do them fast enough that its a practical thing and that means just for example that quantum computer could break most of the encryption that is currently used on internet right now. It could crack those codes. Rose explain why the c. I. A. May be interested . Yes, and the n. S. A. One of the things that came out of the Edward Snowden leaks was that the n. S. A. Has been working quite hard on its quantum computing initiative. So it can break encryptions. Presumably, yes. Rose okay, lets take the corporate side now. There is this guy in this canadian firm. Whats the firms name . Dwave. Rose and what is dwave about . Well, most Quantum Computers exist as laboratory experiments, very, very rudimentary ones. But theres one company, dwave, and theyre canadian, that builds these things on a scale that nobody else its unheard of and not only do they build them, they sell them. You can buy a quantum computer. They are the only people in the world who claim to be able to do this. Rose and those people who have them do what with them . So far they have three customers google and lockheed martin, nasa and an Intelligence Agency to be named later. Rose and they have they cost 10 million . Thats right. Rose explain this whole thing about freezing temperature. The lowest temperature known before this was somewhere where . Way out in the boomerang nebula which is a nebula about 5,000 light years away. Rose its 459 degrees below is it fahrenheit . Fahrenheit, right. Its very close to absolute zero. These things are slightly colder than that. And the reason is when you have a cubit, in order to get it to behave in this quantum way, you have to isolate it from the environment around it. And that means no vibration, no information, and no heat. The way dwave builds its computers it uses superconducting and it can only do it at these very low temperatures. Rose you mentioned google. They want to see whether google wants to use a dwave to sense whether people are blinking or winking when they use google glass. That is one application. Google wants a quantum computer, i think, because its neat. They like cool toys and they dont care how much it costs to get them. Rose and they dont know where it might lead and they want to be there if it goes somewhere. There are very powerful applications in Artificial Intelligence and machine learning, in search which is obviously something that google has a major investment in. Rose and nasa wants to use it . Mission planning would be one option, logistics. But also the search for kpoe planets, earthlike planets in other solar systems. Rose if you went to see 25 of the smartest computer scientists, physicists that you know, a consensus 25, would 20 of them agree on the future of quantum computing . I think they would agree on the power of it. I dont think they would agree on how exactly youll build a quantum computer or when its going to happen. There are many schools of thought on that. Rose some might think you can do this with it, others might think you can do this with it. Some may think you can do less things than anybody else imagines. Yeah. Rose and who do you believe . Whos convincing to you because you spent some time to write this piece. Yes, well, they are all very much smarter than me so i tend to be convinced by whoever im talking to at the moment but i tend to im biased toward the conservative ones. Rose oh, really. Well, we know about the encryption stuff, we know about some simulation of quantum behavior and a lot of the other stuff remains to be seen. Rose having talked to these people, whether its going to happen or not happen, whether it has real possibilities or not, whats the sexiest thing that youve heard that and by that i mean creating Artificial Intelligence like weve never seen before. Going places that we cant imagine going. The things i think of are as Artificial Intelligence, machine learning, i mean that is that is one of those things that will change everything. Rose go ahead. If we get there, if we create a computer thats smarter than us many its been said its the last invention well ever have to make because the computer will invent Everything Else for us. Rose heres your story quantum leap inside the tangled quest for the future of computing. Why did you call it the infinity machine . Because, although it is not literally infinite, you get into numbers that so r so huge so fast. I mean, we are talking about, as i said before, more operations simultaneously thanker there atoms in the universe. Rose you wrote these words Major Companies and Government Agencies believe it will change how we cure disease, explore the heavens and do business on earth. If quantum computing becomes a reality, were more likely to find out quicker if there is, as they use the term, intelligent life in other places in the universe. Its speculation, honestly. But that is thats an exciting possibility. Rose or the possibilities to send out signals that might be heard by somebody somewhere else to listen to their signals vice versa. I think were already pretty good at that. Thats not the kind of problem that Quantum Computers attack. They attack problems that where there are for example vast amounts of data. You hear how were living in the age of big data. Quantum computers have no fear of vast amounts of data. Rose albert einstein, pretty smart guy, said when he was talking about quantum physics i cannot believe that god plays dice with the world. What did he mean . Well, i mentioned before superposition. Another property that pertains rose uncertainty. Right. We can not know i believe the vector and the location of subatomic particle at the same time. Einstein found this this so counterintuitive that he thought quantum physics must be either wrong or grievously incomplete. Rose you have described dwavewave quantum computing wh the following analogy. Rose one of the things that is most elegant and interesting about Quantum Computers is this theory which a lot of serious physicists believe that it is operating in multiple dimensions at the same time. So you have thousands of dimensions, each of which contains a quantum computer, each of which is processing something slightly different and the answer is harvested from across these many dimensions back into one. So you have with the analogy of the landscape you could look at many points on the landscape at the same time and then the answer comes back to you fast. Very fast. Rose there is this. Some people dont believe some people that dwave has Quantum Computers, that what they have are not, in fact, Quantum Computers. Is that correct . Thats right. Theres an enormous amount of controversy over that because they have this machine. Its fast, not faster yet than conventional computers and there are a lot of people who have tested this machine extensively who say we dont think theres any quantum computing happening inside it. We think its a regular computer with an exotic form of processor but not doing anything out of the ordinary. And there are those who think that no matter how big dwave builds the computers theyve got they wont make it faster than conventional computers. So theres so much as in a great deal of Quantum Mechanics that is uncertain. Rose so what do you make of jordy rose whos the head of dwave. What kind of fell slow he . He is a man of enormous selfconfidence. One of the first things i learned about him was that he was a competitive wrestler in college and when i met him i thought i wouldnt want to wrestle this guy because hes determined and there isnt much that intimidates him. Least of all the challenge of building these things that people say cant be built. Rose so between the time you began to investigate this story and today when youve written the story and it it ou, how did it change your impression of the possibilities . What did you go through . Rose well, i went out skeptical because it sounds with all the multiple dimensions and Everything Else it sounds like Science Fiction and i left realizing that down at that level on the quantum level that power is there. Its down there and one day somebodys going to unlock it and when they do a lot of things will change. I dont know who it will be and when it will happen but there is another stage to the evolution of computers and this is it. Rose so in the pantheon of great indicators of the future or one of the great keys to unlocking the future, here it is. You can at least say that. Rose. Yeah, i do say that. And what are the other kinds of things like quantum computing that really smart people either from the world of physics or from the world of digital computing or the world of biology are doing that you would put at the same level . I think the stuff going on in antiaging for example. This is one of the things that you go into and you think death is one of the great realities of our existence and then you meet people who say no, i dont believe that. Death is an illness that can be cured. And they are looking at why we age and thinking about why its possible we may not age. Rose take me to them. Im ready. Rose thats another exciting thing having to do more in biology. The big idea is that intriguing for us like quantum computing, like antiaging. What else . Robotics, i think has enormous power. Rose because we havent even got close to its potential. But automating forms of labor. Rose which is very exciting in terms of productivity but raises questions about what happens to humans. Rose yes, whats our job when the robot cans do it. Rose these are exciting questions. I thank you for coming. Thank you. Rose i repeat this, from time magazine, the cover story, it is because we have people thinking about things like this that we do, in fact, move forward. Thyme says it promises to solve some of humanitys most complex problems and interestingly it is backed by jeff bezos and some other people who have been reasonably good at figuring out what the future might be. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Who knows why hes painted the goldfinch at all. A tiny stand alone masterpiece unique of all its kind, he was young, celebrated. Rose from quantum computing to the literary mind of donna tartt. The publication of a tartt novel is a literary event. He new book the goldfinch was ten years in the making. It centers around the painting by carel a fabritius. I spoke with donna tartt for. Heres a portion of that interview. And the journey you want us to khp ter the explosion at the met and theo is charged with saving the goldfinch is what . The journey that i want to take the reader on always is the journey that i loved most when i was reading as a child just this galloping gleeful you dont know what whats going to happen next and i dont want my books ever to be an Amusement Park ride thats very predictable, up down, up down and you wind around the track and end up in the same place. I want the car to jump the track. I want the car to be out in the woods somewhere and you dont know where you are and you are wondering where the Amusement Park is. And you dont have to get back. I want there to be real danger for the if theres real danger for the character theres real danger and surprise for the reader as well for me i really feel if theres no surprise for the writer theres no surprise for the reade reader you alwayse to be writing at the risk point. I always do, anyway. Rose danger something that has big meaning to you in the sense of the confrontation with danger . Its something that i think gives a great sense of liveliness in work and a great sense of fun as well. Reading should be fun. Rose reading has been essential to your life. It has and continues to be. Rose sitting in the library you Read Everything you could get your hands on when you were working at the library. I started working at the library when i was 14. Rose and you said dickens went from outside to inside. So it became part of you. Yes. Well, thats the wonderful thing about books. Thats the thing that books can do that no other art form can do. When we read a great book we do internalize it. It becomes part of us. When we read a great book we put it wn and were different people. If a great novel will really immesh rabbbly add to our understanding of human character and human nature in a way thats very difficult in real life to have that kind of concentrated experience. You can have it in novel. You can live many lives by reading books. Rose every review ive read compares you and this work to dickens. Dickens was somebody that was inside of you, as you said, stephen king to name a famous writer whos another writer whose work i love and have venn rated since i was a child. Rose the best of dickens here, what is it you think is the connection . Rose what i love about dickens so much as a writer is theres no technical problem that dickens doesnt do well. Hes amazing at character. Hes amazing at suspense. Hes got a fantastic command of metaphor. Hes very, very funny. He is hes a fantastic storyteller. Hes wonderful in terms of plot. You cant put his books down. And the thing about dickens i love so much, theres a warmth about him. Hes a great teacher. Many artists are very opaque and tried to hide their effects. Dicke