Really about human empathy. Funding a way to be empathetic with a foreign culture often in a very dangerous neighborhood and its just fabulous at this. He could sit down and smoke a hukah pipe and he could sit down and as one of my sources said sometimes in this business you have to sup with the devil but use a long spoon, terrorists and dangerous men he did with a very short spoon and we got to know him. We end with Jessye Norman, the great opera star. Certainly 200 years after the french revolution and then to sing on the concord and to be choreographed to walk around and down the steps. All of this was completely live. I was singing live, i wasnt singing to a track. Robin wright, les gelb, kai bird, Jessye Norman when we continue. Theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Additional funding provided by captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with the escalating crises with iraq. Last week the militant group es lambic state of sierra known as isis capture of two of iraqs important cities. Yesterday the insurgency seeks a city which lies to the west. In addition graphic images emerged of masked and continued its march toward baghdad. Joining me is robin wright and les gelb. I am pleased to have both of them on this program. I begin with you robin since you were in iraq recently, a month or so ago. Tell me what you think is going on or what happened to cause this to move so rapidly. There was a story in the times over the weekend, long planned and carefully thought out. But go ahead. Well, this is the greatest threat weve had in the last quarter century from the jihadis, they are well organized, well disciplined, well financed and well trained. They have a game plan and i think they surprised the outside world largely because of the timing. The swift headway they made through North Western iraq. I think weve always known for the last two andahalf years anyway this could happen, they could penetrate iraq and that the state of iraq was actually under threat. I dont think anyone understood just how fashion it might happen. In all the threats we faced in iraq, again the last 25 years since iraqs invasion of kuwait with the 2003 u. S. Intervention in iraq that this is in many ways the most complex in terms of finding a solution, the most devastating in terms of its impact. This is a threat not just to the survival of the iraqi state and whether it disintegrates into two or three parts. Its also a challenge to the entire configuration of the middle east defined a century ago. And it is clearly the deepest and broadest jihadi threat globally any time since islam emerged since a modern political or military threat. Rose well come back to some of those points. Sitting here with me is les gelb who would like to remind me and many others he came on this program a number of times along with joe biden and they coauthored a piece together suggesting what was needed in iraq was some kind of federation. Having said that heres a problem in search of the solution. Whats the solution. The solution is much harder now even if one were possible when i suggested it to take account of the fact that iraq was a flawed diverse state with sunnis and shiites and you could keep them together if they could run their own affairs within. Rose kind of a strong man. Or the turfs before then. With all this gone you have almost a permanence of a war. Rose what is the United States to do . Well, theyre wondering the same thing. They havent come up with a solution. The white how is watching this program, charlie. Theyre mainly thinking as they usually do in terms of people. Can we live with maliki, can we get maliki to do what he didnt before. If we want to get rid of him how do we do that. Who else could take his place. Theyre fixated on questions like that. But they have said a policy framework that isnt bad which is we are not going to shoot a bullet until the Iraqi Government in baghdad shows that it is offer a political approach that could gain support. Only thing and we think were right that the iraqi army will fight instead of run away and that the country might, might possibly be united in a federal system as its constitution allows. Rose is there place for the u. S. And iran to capital here even if it would mean to our sunni friends that we are in bed with their hated enemy iran. Well the secretary of state has said the United States will consult with iran and thats playing out or beginning to play out in vienna today with the talks between the United States and iran in the context of the nuclear agreement. So thats the beginning of a process. But the pentagon has also pointed out something thats very different and thats the issue of coordination. Will there be military coordination with iran. I think theres a difference between consultation and coordination. Were not heading toward a scenario at least so far that looks like the United States for example might provide drone cover as revolutionary guards involve themselves on the ground on behalf of the iraqi army. Or maybe in place of the iraqi army. I dont think were headed in that direction yet. But it is clear that for the first time iran and the United States share common cause and they are both concerned because their strategies have jointly failed. Both of them in different degrees in different ways supporting the government of Prime Minister maliki. This has been in place for, you know, almost ten years. And neither side has been able to convince the Prime Minister to engage with all parties on the ground. And it will take both washington and the United States to help salvage. Neither country can do it alone. This is a pivotal moment, a confluences of factors that could actually facilitate even the nuclear talks. This is changing the dynamics. Rose les. Charlie i think that secretary state kerry and his iranian counterparts are talkig about this and doing it with Political Support here at home. Senator Lindsay Graham even supported the notion to work with the iranians as long as the iranians say they wont do anything bad. I think we will end up working in iran. Rose in which way as robin points out its not a coordinated situation but something else. The first thinking is if we can get the government in baghdad a political proposal that will begin to unite the people again. Without that nothing will work. Is there any chance of some military coordination. I would say if some of the worst fears about the jihadis coming south to baghdad turn out to be true, we might have some military coordination. Were not going to put anybody in on the ground. And the iranians might put commandos or others in on the ground and while we may not like it, i think we prefer it to a jihadi take over. Its the same thing in syria, charlie. Of course we want it thought out. Its a bad guy but who is the bigger thread assad or the jihadis. Its the jihadis. You have to worry about who is more. Rose they get closer and closer to baghdad. What do we do then if theyre within a day of baghdad. Well first of all i dont think thats going to happen. I think that there are very few organized jihadi forces. The truth of the matter is our c. I. A. Doesnt even know ten 10,000 how many they have there. And its not a lot. And the iraqi forces are now organizing emnd i think iraq wl be safe from many regular attack. There will be bombings and terrorists but not an organized attack. So there will be an opportunity for the Iraqi Government to get organized. Rose all right. Robin a couple questions about, one three questions in fact. What is their objective here of isis number one and who are the other sunni countries very much have reason to fear islamists like these radical extremists. Where are they. And three, what kind of relationship do they have with the elements that in some cases are now supporting the extremists. Well isis really wants to create a broad Islamic State modeled on their faith centuries ago. It wants the rigid implementation of islamic law in its purest or earliest form, most draconian form, one of which many muslims today actually reject. But it wants to do that across borders and you saw first of all in syria and now in iraq and i think the real danger is the creation of this sunni state that spans the border between syria and iraq has already disappeared. In terms of what role do the play, the real problem is there are elements reportedly inside arabia and elsewhere among the oil rich gulf states. Private individuals who are supporting a lot of the isis leaders. Theyve provided reportedly tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars or military equipment and thats really dangerous. This is not the official position of many of our gulf allies. And theres a split. This is where we see, we talk very kind of simplistically about a sectarian divide between sunni and shiite. Theres a divide in the sunni world in general or even the islamic world in general those who are looking for extremists core and others who are looking for more moderation, they want a 21st century state. Theres a lot of diversity within the islamic world and in this question a lot of differences. In some cases you find because of that sectarian divide shiites and sunni, thats pushing a lot of sunnies more into their sunni identity and thats where were not yet at the point were into a sectarian war but boy are we headed there fast. Rose what impact will rise in these extremists coming towards baghdad. It will work. He is the most influention shiite figure in iraq and maybe worldwide. So i think you will get militias standing up and being willing to fight. Let me come back to the point you were asking robin about hour friends in the gulf. Because theyve been doing us a great deal of damage now the government officially dont support arming the jihadis but there are plenty religious leaders in our friendly gulf states thats been supporting them in syria and now in iraq. And the United States, are in order to help calm the situation is going to have to crack down on them too. 1athey look to us fr security and yet theyre undermining the basis of American Power and interests throughout the middle east. Rose crack down on the people giving the money. Yes, crack down on the people giving money. Because the saudi people they know who is giving the money. Rose robin whats the time frame for this. Give me a sense how urgent it is and suppose it all goes bad. Are we looking at a conflict between sunni and shia that was precede throughout the middle east. Ultimately thats the greatest dilemma for the obama administration. Does it get sucked into a conflict that actually becomes sectarian and involves drawing us into a division or a chasm that has been around for 1400 years. I mean thats one thing that we need to be very careful about that we dont get involved. I lived in beirut for the five years of the civilsectarian conr struggle over the definition of a modern state can endure far longer than we want. Do we have to make a decision tonight or the next week over what we do. We need to be so careful in this one. The fact is that our involvement in 1990 and 91 was militarily decisive within six weeks. We got Saddam Hussein out of little kuwait. In 2003 we got hussein out of baghdad within three weeks. They were military victories but ultimately political procedures. We have to make[n sure as les d a political success, making sure theres a viable government representing all iraqi interests. Rose is this a failure of obama foreign policy. The obama team didnt do a great job but it was facing enormous rose syria first or because ending without troops in iraq when they left, or both. Well i dont think leaving iraq was the basis of this and even if we had ten or 10,000 troops in iraq. I think the political problems underneath. Rose did we lose influence with malikis government bush was trying to get the agreement on status of forces too. He didnt succeed so i dont think you can lay this at obamas doorstep. I think thats totally unfair. The real issue now, charlie, and even if job does everything right, its going to be hard. But the real issue now is can we put together a coherent strategy to deal with therobin has descre puts0throughout the middle east. You cant do it with iraq alone. Its an iraq and syria problem. Its a problem of the Business People and the religious leaders and the gulf financing the jihadis against our interests. You have to pull all these pieces together and decide whats the problem we have to deal with first. Rose who is going to put all the pieces together. Its up to the United States because if the United States doesnt do it, it doesnt get done. Rose this is what ron crosswalker said yesterday. We need the secretary of state in baghdad right now. We need the president on the phone to iraqi leadership because the reality is the iraqis are not in a position, they were not in a position when i was there, theyre not in a position now to work out hard compromises on their in. Thats what you said, john kerry, get to baghdad and be the person working now. But then you need the overall problem because this isnt just iraq, its syria. And it isnt just iraq and syria its the middle east. Its an opportunity to work with the iranians to solve the larger strategic threat, which is right now the jihadis threatening both syria and iraq. And weve got to put this whole bag together for it to work. You cant just solve the problem in baghdad. Rose what happened to all the effort that we poured into training the iraqi army. Charlie, this happens time and again. We poured all that effort into training, arming and equipping the south Vietnamese Army. When we left, the north vietnamese attacked, the south Vietnamese Army folded. Weve done ten years worth of training, equipping and fightig alongside the afghan army and we do have to hurry when we pull out theyre going to collapse as well and the taliban will do there what the jihadis are doing in iraq today. So it isnt the United States that can solve these problems. As long as were there, fighting their war, theyre always going to rely on us and never develop the resilience to deal with the problems on their own when we leave. Rose and the motivation. Yes. Rose thank you less less. Good to see you. Thank you robin. Well be back. Stay with us. Rose kai bird is here a Pulitzer Prize winning author and columnist, a good called the good spy. It take the look at the life and death of robert aims one of the c. I. A. s most legendary and unusual agents. Aims was killed tragically in the 1983 bombing of the u. S. Embassy in beirut. Had he lived, robert aims may have heaped heal the receive between the arabs and the west. Robert bear called the good spy the best book hes ever read on espionage. Im glad to have kai bird back at this table. Welcome. Thank you charlie. Rose tell me the obvious, tell me who robert aims was. He was a veteran c. I. A. Officer who rose to become mr. Middle east, a briefer of Ronald Reagan but he started out as a clandestine c. I. A. Officer in 1960, mentor by the legendary cia director richard hems. He specialized in the middle east, became a fabulous arabic language speaker. And he was, the title the good spy is apt because he was actually a very good decent man but he was also very good at his work. Rose why was he good at his work . Human intelligence, it turns out, the art of spy craft is really about human empathy. Finding a way to be empathetic with a foreign culture often in a very dangerous neighborhood. And aims was just fabulous at this. He could sit down and smoker a hookah pipe with star keepers and he could sit down as one of my sources said sometimes in this business, you have to sup with the devil. But you use a very long spoon. Well aims supped with the devil often. Terrorists, dangerous men but he did it with a very short spoon. He got to know them. Rose you tell the story he made a trip to see Yasser Arafat which would have been against the pia rules. He didnt tell them. Exactly. Rose and then he wrote his wife and described it. Its incredible but this is one of the reasons i was able to do this back in such a closely biographical fashion i found these letters and his widow graciously gave them to me. And he had about 150 pages of handwritten letters. In one of them, youre quite right. He describedvarafats intelliged much more. And the fact aims had supped with the devil, he got very close to, he cultivated initially as recruitment but he realized that the man with a not recruitable. Rose you could not buy him. Couldnt buy him. So he turned rose he tried. They trade. Aims superiors tried and failed. But one day solame took bob aims into one of the refugee camps and unannounced introduced him to arafat. This is a time when Henry Kissinger had promised the israelis and said we would never talk to the members of the plo, palestinian liberation association. It was a terrorists association, we wouldnt have any dealings with them. But of course when aims started this relationship in 1969, very early, with solame, kissinger knew about it. Not immediately, but aims told his boss and helms encouraged him to do it because thats what Intelligence Officers do. They go where foreign Intelligence Officers cant do. Rose tell me about solame because thats crucial to the book. Its a fascinating story. These are two men who are complete opposites. Aims was the son of a steel worker from philadelphia, not blue bud. He was the son of a steel worker from philadelphia, all american literally basketball player. Tall, six foot three, handsome, through eyes, hazel blue eyes and blond and just strikingly hand some. He favored cowboy boots and tinted glasses. Walking down the street of beirut, he