Anderson, the c. E. O. Of Delta Airlines. Youve got three big, big carriers, american, united and delta. Youve got a really big supernational carrier that is the largest domestic carrier which is southwest. Then youve got some majors. Youve got alaska and jetblue who all call Large National carriers. And then there is spirit and frn tear and sun country and allegiant. So you have a really nice competitive, contested lineup of carriers. Rose ferguson, missouri, and the aftermath and Richard Anderson when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following a dition additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Service its worldwide. From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Michael Brown senior and Lesley Mcspadden are here. They are the parents of Michael Brown. He is the unarmed teenager who was killed by a white Police Officer, darren wilson, on august 9th. Also here is their attorney benjamin crump. This week the st. Louis prosecutor Robert Mccullough announced a grand jury decided no the to tin diet officer wilson. N fro tests grew nationwide, the case has come to symbolize issues of race. President obama addressed the nation shortly after the grand Jury Announcement on monday evening. We need to recognize that this is not just an issue for ferguson this is an issue for america. We have made enormous progress in trais relations, over the course of the past several decades. I have witnessed that in my own life and to deny that progress, i think is to deny americas capacity for change but what is also true is that there are still problems and communities of color arent just making these problems up. Separating that from this particular decision, there are issues in which the law too often feels as if it is being applied in a discriminatory fashion. I dont thinks that tea the norm. I dont think thats true for the majority of the communities or the vast majority of Law Enforcement officials. But these are real issues. And we have to lift them up and not deny them or try to tamp them down. What we need to do is to understand them and figure out how do we make more progress. And that can be done trz the president spoke again at a chicago event on tuesday. The problem is not just a ferguson problem, it is an american problem. And weve got to make sure that we are actually bringing about change. The bottom line is nothing of it significance, nothing of benefit results from destructive acts. I have never seen a civil rights law or a healthcare bill or an immigration bill result because a car got burnt. It happened because people vote. It happened because people mobilize. It happened because people organized. It happens because people look at what are the best policies to solve the problem. Thats how you actually move something forward. Rose i am pleased to have Michael Brown senior, Lesley Mcspadden and benjamin crump. I think you know that the country and people at this table understand and appreciate your grief as well as your anger having to do with the decision at the vote at the grand jury. I want to take this opportunity in a sense to hear you at this table, and try to understand what it is that you agree with in terms it of events unfolded. And where there is dramatic disagreement, always understanding it that you both have experienced a tragic loss, you know. And anyone who has lost a child or not appreciates that. And out of that comes a sense of a cry for justice, as you see it and out of that comes anger that this could happen. Tell me what your understanding is because we heard from officer wilson in an interview with George Stephanopoulos which well see a clip of later, of what happened between officer wilson, your understanding. My understanding. Officer wilson was driving down canfield where my son was walking. Said some vulgar things to them about getting out of the street. Rose he was walking in the street. He was actually coming across the street. It is a two lane road. And he told him well, im almost home. And from there officer wilson turned his vehicle as if he was blocking traffic, screeching tires it, trying to get to my son, opening the door, hitting him with the door and then attempting to grab at him. And making contact to the point where hes pulling him towards it him. And my son is trying to get away. Rose hes still in the car. Hes still in the car. Rose and then. And as he tries to get away, and get him off of him, he tells him ill shoot you. And does just that trz and there are a couple of shots. I believe so. Rose at that time. How many, i dont know. But i believe that is when my son was shot. Rose you also, i assume, base this on what witnesses may have told you. Exactly. Rose that you knew in the community. Exactly. Rose people you knew and other people that might have come forward. People that come forward. There was a lot of people that it i didnt know, that i still dont know. But they saw things it. And they was just compelled to let us know what they saw. Kuz they knew that this kid did not deserve what happened to him. And they didnt know my son from tad am. Rose well, well talk about your son as well, and who is the son that you knew and loved so then what happened . Because your son walked away. My son was running for his life. And as his father had said before he had a conversation with him about how to deal with the authorities if you are approached. Rose which was . Which was to obey, basically. If they ask you to do something, you are to do it. And i believe that he was asked to stop. That is what he did. He stopped. He turned it around torque get down on his knees, like the officer asked him. Rose you believe he was on his knees. I believe so. Rose and then he was shot. I believe he was shot close up. And i dont think my son was lunging at him in any kind of way. Because the way the bullet entered his body and the things that they were doing inside his body while he is constantly shooting him, theres no way he had any strength or energy to lung at him at all. And for him to say that when he looked down the barrel of his gun to fire what he would say is the last shot, it hit my sons head, explain that to me. Explain that to me, how was my son down on the ground, with his hands up, begging you, basically, for his life. Hes begging you. Hes begging you. Rose and then in the grand jury there were conflicting it testimony. Well, i would say that they are tea conflicting opinions which means factual dispute. And when you have factual dispute, thats when are you to have a trial, a transparent trial. Fanned there is anything. Rose and the ability to crossexamine the witnesses. The ability to crossexamine the witness and the ability for it to it be transparent. So the community of ferguson, people across america, can see it it and if we can see it, we can accept it more. But when you do it in secret, a grand jury proceeding where it is only one side being presented, you cant be surprised when the people reject the decision that you came upon. Rose as painful as this might be, im not sure whether you have heard or seen this yet, this was on abc and courtesy of abc. We show you now an interview with officer wilson i mean yes, and George Stephanopoulos, our colleague at abc news it. Here it is. I used pie door to try to push him back and yell at him to get backment and again he just pushed the door sht and stairs at me. As i lack back at him, puncheds started flying. Rose he threw the first within. Yeah, he through the first one and hit me in the side of the face. Some of the witnesses say they saw you trying to pull him into the car. That would be against any training ever taught to any Law Enforcement officer. I dont know what or how many hit me after that i just know there was a barrage of swinging and grabbing and pulling for about 10 seconds. And then what . I reached out my window with my right hand to grab on to his forearm. Because i was going to try to move him backnd get out of the door. When i fell it, i felt the immense power. It was like a fiveyearold on to hulk hogan. That is how big in man was. He was very large, very powerful man. Are you a pretty big guy. Yeah, im above average. So you try to grab him but you feel that force. Yes. Pretty of the same size. They are both big guys. An when he says hulk hogan, was like hitting a fiveyearold, he being the fiveyearold, where is the evidence of that, charlie. You saw the pictures. America saw the pictures. He just had like blush on his cheek so why didnt the prosecutor crossexamine him. Why hasnt the killer of their unarmed son ever been crossexamined. He wasnt made to give statements to the police. He didnt write it out as customary. So you look at the first statement from the detective to the testimony in a grand jury, and see how the story continues to just evolve. Rose when you hear that officer talk, what does it is a to you . Lies. It disgusts me. He doesnt have he has he has no sympathy for the family. He just looked like hes just going around it, just lying, you know. I have heard that he had apologized for what he has done. It didnt sound sincere to does. It just sounded like something 245 just rolled off his lips. Rose have you heard from the mayor of ferguson. No, sir. Rose anybody in the any Police Official at all . Not at all. Rose no sense of reaching out. Not one person. The police chief apologized a couple months later, but that was their television trz this is part two of the conversation, George Stephanopoulos interviewing officer wilson. Here it is. I take it out and i come up, a point it at him. When i do this i say get back, im going to chute. His response immediately he grabbed the top of my money gun, when he grabbed it he said you are too much of a [bleep] to shoot me. When he does that i feel his hand come over my hand inside the trigger guard and try and shoot me with my own go up am that is when i pulled the trigger. What happened. It didnt go off. The gun was being jammed by his hand on top of the firearm so i tried again and again another click. And this time i this had to work or im going to be dead. Will get this gun away from from me, something is going to happen and i will be dead. So i pull a third time tand it finally goes off. Rose i think my impression is that it was at the car, is that right . Right. That was not when he had left the scene. He was walking away. Look at the statement that he gives the dect difficult, initially versus what he just said. Thats all were saying. So lets talk about the grand jury. Here is jeffrey toobin, look he evidence that they saw and heard. You know t charlie, i think so. I dont i think other prosecutors and other grand juries might well have come out differently. Might well have pursued this whole case in a different way. But do i think this grand jury made an irrational choice based on the evidence before it . No t i dont. I think they made a reasonable conclusion to the evidence. So what he is saying based on what that grand jury saw and thats the crucial thing. And your quarrel is what that grand jury might have seen. And the way it was prevented, charlie. Remember this is a prosecutor that they objected to from the beginning. They always said a special prosecutor needed to it be brought in, because the whole system needs to be indicted. Rose and you had questions about this particular prosecutor . Yeah. Rose which were . Was it just that you didnt want him or because you just simply believed that this was the circumstances as called for a special prosecutor. We didnt want both, both, basically. We have seen him to the do his job for almost 20 something years now. Rose so he was you knew of him in that community. Yeah, been . St. Louis my whole 24 years. Rose dow believe he was racist . You know, we think, you look at his history, and he is never prosecuted a Police Officer for killing a person of color. Rose his father was a Police Officer. I believe his father was a Police Officer. And you know, i heard that from the family about the history. But i think it goes farther than that when you look at how he changed the procedure from what ive never seen in my 20 years of practicing law, charlie, i dont know if you have ever seen a procedure like this where the prosecutor doesnt recommend charges to the grand jury, says im just going to put it all out there and i want to it be fair. Im to the going to recommend, look at it. Tell me about your son. Like i said before, you know, he was our first born. He had just graduated in may. He was a big brother, grandson, a nephew, pleasant, humble, quiet. And i could not i just cant understand it it because this does not fit his character at all no one will no one has ever seen or heard of him acting out in a way. Theres nothing about him that you know that he would react the way the officer described. Not at all. Rose not any instance or circumstances or it is just for you, totally unimaginable . That he would behave as the officer suggested. Yes, i dont believe it. Rose so why do you think the officer is saying this. To make him look good. To cover himself. Well then make a report. If you didnt do anything wrong, what are you hiding. Make a report like every Police Officer is required to do in those 48 hours. You have to look he stuff and see what he said to the detective, charlie. But you know, the gun accidentally came out of his holster. The gun accidentally went off. But now that story has evolved. And so we asked america to look at it and to see if they believed the prosecution really went after an indictment or not. Because thats why people are so heartbroken. Rose has the prosecutor spoken to this question . As to what he was seeking and what his motive was with respect to the grand jury . Only what we know from the beginning where he said hes going to do this unusual process of putting it all out there and im to the going to recommend any charges. Rose but would you applaud him having all the conversation come out, i would assume. You know, my clients told all the lawyers they wanted equal justice. They didnt want anything less. They wanted a trial as the constitution about United States says. When there are fact all disputes and theres probable cause, the killer should be charged. There should be a trial. The witness and the evidence against him transparent. Rose so he can argue at that trial selfdefense or what have you. Absolutely. He with get all his constitutional rights, mr. Rose. Nobody doubts that the Police Officer wouldnt have gotten every benefit of the doubt. We have got all his due process. The question is would Michael Brown have gotten his due process. Rose lets talk about that in terms of what we know. There was some cigars, were there . Yes. Rose and a videotape. Video tape, yup. And videotapes there was one camera, one videotape. And your son was identified there. And i think mismcspadden can speak to that. And my response to that was that is an 18 second clip. You can not judge my son off 18 second clip for 18 years of his life. Rose your son would not have done what they assumed he had done there and stolen well, no one has said that he stole. This is all an assumption. Lets assume a kid stole cigarettes. Rose right. Is that justified the death penalty. No. Rose nobody. Nobody. Rose would believe that. Nobody. And then even after that t erode past t you know. They say he just came from a call from a child choking. You know. Why he stop why do you think . I want to know. I want to know. You really have to go back to the beginning about all the stuff the police chief said he didnt know about the incident at the store. Look at what he told the detective when he first asked about the incident at the store. So this is the stuff you try to figure out, why wasnt this asked during the examination of a killer of an unarmed teenager. You know, just one tough question. It was almost like you give a speech to this jury for four hours and were going to accept it as the gospel. A first year law student would have crossexamined him harder. And thats what is troublingment because we dont think they got equal justice during that grand jury prosecution. Rose at the heart of your argument is the grand jury and what you believe or the grand jury that was presented evidence in a way that was unlikely to lead to indictment. Is that a fair characterization of what you believe. That is fair, charlie. And i often wonder, and i dont know if we know how the vote went, but i do know this. Certain people see our children differently than we see our children. And that is something we have to address in america. Because you cant be allowed to demonize our children and ville i few our children when you vilify our children when you kill them and expect us to be okay with it. Thats why people are protesting. Rose speak to that. This is not the first incident, obviously, as we mentioned in the beginning. What is at the core here in your judgement as someone who has been so brutally to us through your son that way and to know that his body lay there for four hours on the street what is at the core here . Respect, is definitely at the core. And we deserve equal amount of respect. And were not getting it. And that was all that we wanted was equality for what happened to our son. And i think its a very unfair and im just, like, i never knew that this is how things it would go. This is how things it operated. That the system could fail you so much when everything is right there in your eyesight. You see it all right there. We all see the same thing. I know we all see the same thing. So why are we having this conversation . Why didnt he do his job right. The same as for darren. Same for jackson. Why is it so important to cover this up for this man . Hes wrong. What does this do for ferguson . Really . We have done nothing but ask for peaceful process protest but look at what theyre doing to their community. Ferguson is doing this to ferguson. Why. I want to know why. Why is one of those questions you never get to answer to. But we know who. Who . Darren chief jackson. Bob mccullough, governor nixon. Rose theyre doing this to ferguson. They are doing this to ferguson. And it has expanded outside of ferguson. Rose you know what else is happening in ferguson is that since this grand Jury Announcement was announced, the verdict judgement decision was announced by mccullough, on monda