And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with ongoing coverage of the recent paris attacks. Questions continue to surround the global response. Last week, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton called irvegz. Its final to begin a new phase and intensify and broaden our efforts to smash the wouldbe caliphate and deny i. S. I. S. Control of territory in iraq and syria. That starts with a more effectively Coalition Air campaign, with more allied planes, more strikes and a broader target set. We should also work with the coalition and the neighbors to impose no fly zones that will stop assad from slaughtering civilians and opposition from the air. Rose president Francois Hollande urged the United States to cooperate. There is an increasing awareness on the part of president putin that i. S. I. L poses a greater threat to them than anything else in the region. The question at this point is whether they can make the strategic adjustment that allows them to be effective partners with us and the other 65 countries who are already part of the counteri. S. I. L campaign and we dont know that yet. Rose joining me, general David Petraeus, commander of forces in iraq and afghanistan, later served as director of the c. I. A. , today chairman of the k. K. R. Global institute. I am pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. Thanks, charlie. Good t to be back. Rose we talk about areas you know a lot about. Tell me what you think ought to be the considerations both offensively and defensively as everybody seems to agree i. S. I. L now has a global strategy and reach. Yeah, they have demonstrated that in the last couple of weeks with the attack in sinai, lebanon and, obviously, in paris. If we can step back for a moment, i think we should acknowledge two lessons from the post arab spring period. The first is ungoverned spaces or inadequately governed spaces likely will be exploited by extremists who want to foam at disorder and wish us ill. Second, there is no substitute for American Leadership in contending with such situations. Clearly, i think the paris attacks developments in recent weeks show its time for a reassessment of the strategy, to ask questions of, i think, is the Mission Statement broad enough, are we taking all the steps that we can, are the rules of engagement overly restrictive, should we deploy Additional Resources and so forth. Youve heard former secretary of state Hillary Clinton outline her plan which called for a good bit more action including a no fly zone, something i also strongly endorse and spoke about before the Senate Armed Services committee a month or so ago. Rose what is the strategy, you think, of the president today . First of all, the president has asked the military for additional options and, so, its very clear that what he wants to do is accelerate this rollback, if you will, of the Islamic State. But there are a number of components to that. In iraq, for example, first of all, the center of gravity of the whole effort in iraq is in baghdad, its iraqi politics. Those have to be inclusive if you can have a sustainable set of achievements there because rolling back the Islamic State without having forces that have legitimacy in the eyes of the people, the sunni Arab Community of iraq which became alienated, once again, under the previous Prime Minister, that just wont work. So youve got to have sunni arab forces that are ready to hold areas once theyre cleared, and we really havent yet had to contend with that in a big way, though certainly tikrit was such an operation, and that does seem to be being held now by forces that are quasi legitimate in the eyes of people. But when they take back ramadi and certainly mosul, there has to be a plan for that whole force. Rose what is your assessment today of the willingness of the sunni tribes to participate against i. S. I. S. . My understanding is that they are quite willing. What theyre waiting for is the authorization for baghdad, in some cases for us to provide additional assets to them, Additional Resources and, indeed, theyre waiting for some kind of official approval for their status if, indeed, theyre going to become part of the National Guard. Rose in the hands of the Iraqi Government . It is. Thats why i stressed earlier the center of gravity of the effort, the iraqi effort, is in syria and baghdad. Youve got to get inclusive politics. Sunni arabs have to be brought back into the fabric of Iraqi Society as we did in the surge. One of the key ideas was to make the sunni arabs feel as if they had a stake in the success of the new iraq rather than a success in its failure and right now there is a little indecisions still on that. Rose how do you make them know they have a future in the stake of iraq . Best of all would be the Iraqi Parliament to approve the National Guard interest Prime Minister abadi has put forward. That has been installed in the council of representatives. The Prime Minister has directed some actions to go foaferred , but something that formally acknowledge they will receive salaries and so forth if indeed they put it on the line and help out with the clearance and holding of major cities like ramadi, fallujah and above all mosul. Rose anything else they need before theyre prepared to go forward with i. S. I. S. And lead a sunni charge with the rest of the forces aligned against i. S. I. S. . Yes. , obviously they will need weapons, training and equipment beyond that. There are thousands of these forces that have already received that, but this is going to take a good bit more than that. Remember how intensive it is in terms of people to hold areas. We learned that during our previous experiences in iraq. This time, we should not be the ones on the ground. I firmly believe that as well. But we should have advisors at brigade level, not Just Division level. We should have joint Tactical Air ControllersGoing Forward to help out, certainly additional advisor teams. Rose this is not just special forces, or is it entirely special forces advisor teams that will work with sunni arabs who may be joining the war . Actually the core of the advise and assist teams right now comes from conventional Infantry Brigades and theres an 82nd Airborne Division headquarters that is over the top of that particular effort. My recommendation is indeed to extend that. Not just for Division Headquarters but to push them to brigade headquarters. Rose will be embedded with the brigades that will be fighting on the ground . Rose thats right. Its sufficiently close, will help out more, i think you will have closer integration and you have to look at the rules of engagement. By many reports, theyre so strict there is an approval process thats required, its not the kind of streamlined effort that is necessary. Certainly no one wants to see civilians killed or collateral damage, but this is war and i think theyre probably going to have to relook at some of that. Rose let me go through that. Thats important. The question is what can you the on the ground . What should the rules of engagement be . Reportedly now, its essentially no civilians killed in any action. Rose you cant do anything that might lead to damage there is an exception process that exists but the question is is this too strict . Rose right. Secialtion we had a sign on the wall when i was in iraq that asked, will this operation create more bad guys than it takes off the street by its conduct . And you have to constantly keep that in mind. But again, i think there is a strong feeling among many out there that this is a bit restrictive now. Rose but this goes beyond special forces which the president consently mentions. Yes, the advisor teams are therready there from Infantry Brigade teams not special forces. Rose will it take more to invade at the brigade level. Yes, if you have more advisor teams you will need more. I dont know the specific number of brigades in the fight. Shouldnt beverly brin brigade n iraq, just the ones engaged in the operations to clear the remaining areas where islam is located particularly in the north with mosul is the capital. Rose do they work with iraqi, shia militias . They dont. There is always been concerns for us being the air force for iraqi shia supported by iran, so thats been a sensitive issue. Essentially whats happening is the iraqi army and some Iraqi Special forces elements generally lead the way. In some cases you have the shia militia blind and sometimes separate. Rose there is terms of engagement where we dont help the militias with forces. Its my understanding the degree of cooperation and coordination with irani supported shia militia has to be strictly limited to that of just the confliction through iraqis not directly with them. Keep in mind, if i could, charlie, again, these are elements that are being paid by the Iraqi Government, getting salaries from the Iraqi Government but actually responding to quasilegal leadership which is, in many cases, influenced directly by the head of the force of s iran . In syria a number of highranking officer have been killed as has been the case in iraq on at least one occasion i know of. Rose after the taking of sinjar hornings will it take to mount an attack against mosul and is that the next priority . No, actually i think the next priority is probably the ongoing operation in ramadi but the significance of sinjar is that cuts the main supply root thats left from raqqah, the capital of the state, to mosul, essentially the capital of the north of iraq as it has been historically, and the very important location for them in iraq. Probably the Central Location in terms of importance. Rose what is your assessment and from what you know of the military capabilities of i. S. I. S. . Well, the Islamic State really is three elements right now. Its a conventional army. Thats really what came into iraq and seized these different strategic cities that was literally threatening the very gates of baghdad, if you will, until it was rolled back over the course of the last year or so. It still holds very significant parts of iraq and certainly large swaths of Syrian People say roughly the state of indiana in size to give some perspective on that. So there is a conventional force. There is also a terrorist element because they still continued to carry out terrorists acts in baghdad and in other cities in iraq, often targeting shia sites trying to foment civil war as indeed their forbearers, al quaida in iraq, did so successfully to create the spiral of violence that escalated so terrifyingly in 2006. And then theyre also, already, if you will guerilla elements or insurgents and one would expect, as their conventional forces are degraded, defeated, rolled back, that they will certainly try to leave as many of the terrorist cells and indeed insurgent elements in the country as they can. Rose it is argued, though, that Holding Territory that they hold creates a socalled caliphate, the iraqi Islamic State, and that is part of the narrative that is attractive. Its very, very important and the reason for the need for urgency, if you will, is to show that the Islamic State is a loser. As long as the Islamic State is seen to be a winner, it will have much greater success in social media which is an element of their capabilities that has really distinguished them from core al quaida or the original al quaida. Rose and not only in competition and in warfare with its enemies but competing islamic jihaddest groups. Exactly and there is quite a tug of war going on among these Different Groups each trying to get as many add heernts as possible, trying to make inroads in afghanistan, yemen, sinai, libya, in a number of different locations where the Islamic State spread its tentacles and, again, nothing succeeds like success in the recruitment of jihadis. Rose al quaida affiliates, ramadi . Aqim. Rose and you have al quaida affiliates in the rest of the world as well. In africa. In yemen. And afghanistan. Small, but still there, certainly. Rose when you moved to syria, what are our options in syria . The russians have changed the dynamics of the game. Theyve added a huge additional level of complexity to the whole affair and its important to note right off the front that russia is hitting the people, our guys, more on the ground even more than Islamic State with their air power and thats largely because the forces that we have been supporting have generally been seen as a greater threat to the Russian Air Base and the sea bass i sea base on the mediterranean coast. Rose are they the same moderate forces as in 2011 or a Different Group of moderate forces . Thats obviously something i couldnt go into, charlie. Others have commented on that and ill let them speak for themselves. Rose all right. But is there, from your assessment, a Strong Enough moderate force to for us to support or do we have to, you know, essentially rebuild and try to create a group that it can compete against i. S. I. S. . There are forces in the south and the north that have a reasonable degree of capability, and what we need to do is enable them further and prothe ticket them better and protect them better and tats where the no fly zone and safe enclave comes in. Rose when you say no fly zone, i. S. I. S. Has no air force. Well and this gets to the heart of the issue, the disconnect, is we want these guys to fight the Islamic State. These guys want to fight assad and the regime which they see is responsible for the deaths of 300,000 syrians and the displacement of far more than half the population, of course the regime being alawite shia supported by iran, the hezbollah and others and the opposition being sunni arab. By the way, the sunni arab is vastly the majority in the country, so that is the challenge that we have, and i think we have to commit to support them against the regime as well as against the Islamic State noting that i am not one who is in a hurry to get rid of Bashar Alassad until we have a sense of what might follow. He cannot be part of the solution. I think everyone is clear on that. He is the Magnetic Attraction that brings individuals into syria, and that has, indeed, made the Islamic State able to recruit from abroad as well. So he is ultimately not going to be part of the solution. Rose hes the one who used barrel bombs against his own people and exactly. And, of course, what we have to do is say, look, if the barrel bombs continue, we will ground your air force and we have the capability of doing that. Now, were also now, though, the added complexity is to deal with russia and there we need to have some coordination with them and explain, look, these guys are our guys, and if you keep going after our guys, at some point were going to have to go after your guys and Bashar Alassads guys. Rose and your guys are in this case Assads Air Force . Exactly right. Rose we should ground Assads Air Force. Yes, and you can ground a fixed wing pretty easily. Just crater the runway. The rotary ring helicopters take more but we have the capability. Rose why do you think the president doesnt do it . At the beginning it would have been more complex when he had an intact, integrated air Defense System that was quite sophisticated, i think this would have take an good bit of effort. That is not in tact anymore. Beyond that, we can do a lot of this without ever going inside the airspace. Rose do we have know how much the russians have in their support of assad helped him rebuild that or again, we know where the runways are, we know where the aircraft are and we can deal with that, this is something that is doable. Rose we should do it now . I believe we should. Again, if we dont, these forces will it ultimately gravitate as many others have to either the Islamic State which has a lot of resources still, although were really taking those away from them with the increase in the campaign against their own infrastructure and indeed the whole illegal Oil Transport system, or alnaser which is another al quaida affiliate in this case in northern syria. Rose what difference are there between them and i. S. I. S. . Well, i. S. I. S. Had been truly extraordinarily barbaric. I. S. I. S. Has taken actions that i think even al quaida would not have coun it alienates the population. Rose the way you got the sunnis is use what al quaida was doing to the local populous. Exactly right. The local populous had gotten very, very tired to put it mildly of wh