Maggie haberman who covers politics for the New York Times and cnn. Paul ryan is a very conservative figure. Yet at this moment in the conservative party which has lurched so far right, he is not treated that way anymore. Hes seen as a moderate. Rose instead of establishment. Absolutely. And the party base is deeply suspicious. Many americans are deeply suspicious of government and of an establishment. So i think that were not going to know whether the Republican Party looks anything like what we resemble. You certainly see people like paul ryan and ted cruz banking on the idea that it basically will form wack toward what it was in some version or another but its a collection of different tribes with different interests now. Rose brett mcgurk and maggie haberman, when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose brett mcgurk is here. He is a special president ial envoy for the Global Coalition to fight i. S. I. L. He previously held a number of policy roles under both the obama and bush administrations also served as a Senior Advisor to three u. S. Ambassadors in baghdad. Questions continue to surround the u. S. Led effort to combat the islamic state. Abadi is battling to stay in office after protests over the weekend. A u. S. Navy seal was killed by i. S. I. S. Fighters in iraq tuesday, the third american serviceman to die in the country since 2014. In syria, a push to maintain a fragile cease fire in the wake of recent violence. To talk about this and more, im pleased to have brett mcgurk back at the table. Welcome. Good to have you. Rose give me a sense and this is a huge concern for you and we want to talk about many things, of where is iraq today. So, charlie, i have been in and out of iraq now the last month, kind of going back and forth, baghdad, traveling around the region. Rose everywhere but mosul. Ight, not in mosul. Iraq faces tremendous challenges. You mentioned Prime Minister abadi. Heres a guy that came into office after Prime Minister maliki. It was a democratic, peaceful transition in the heart of the middle east. At the time the price of Oil Per Barrel was about 100. Every single drop of the price per barrel of oil iraq loses about a billion dollars a year. And last month, it went all the way down to about 30. So you just got a sense of the tools of which he has to work was not what we quite expected. So what hes trying to do is implement some pretty farreaching reforms. Electricity tariffs. Hes trying to purge the roles of the ghost soldiers and employees, farreaching reforms. Thats popular among the population but generated resistance among the political elite. So what you have in the country in addition to the fight against i. S. I. L which we can talk about is an upheaval against the status quo happening from the bottom up which is happening in many parts to have the world. Thats not so much antiPrime Minister, theyre protesting the itpolitical establishment. As he tries to implement reforms, he comes up against resistance against political rivals, they dont get enacted and the population continues to go to the streets. You have his rivals riding that wave muqtadaer is riding that wave. So abadi is in the right spot but is trying to do the right thing. So were hopeful that he can get out of this. I think we have great confidence in him and what hes trying to do, but we recognize its one of the most difficult jobs in the world, what hes trying to do. So i think we have to give the process a lit bit of time to little bit of time to to mature recognizing even superman cant do the job needed. The country is taking on 3 billion of debt every month. Were working with the world bank and many of the coalition 66 members now, to help iraq, and theyll need help. But also abadi has to keep on the right path and do the right thing because they have to address this popular pressure but hes going to need help from his political challengers. Rose you have pointed out the politics of iraq is so crucial, but many people have said over the last year that his essential requirement was beyond fixing the economy and the confidence of the people of iraq, was to appeal to the sunni tribes, who were needed not only in the battle against i. S. I. S. Is that happening . Great question. And one thing that makes abadi so much different than his predecessor maliki, maliki is kind of an extreme centralizer. Not only centralized in baghdad but his office. He would have three phones. When you meet with him, he has three phones on his desk, constantly answering his phone trying to control everything from his office. Rose one to iran. Probably. But that cant work. The days of that overly centralized structure, that creates pressure cookers around the country. That cant work. Abadi has a different philosophy. When he was coming into office he told me and since said publicly that either iraq decentralizes or it will disintegrate. Rose not to the point of breaking up iraq into parts. No, federalism, which was called for in their constitution. He really believes in that and that gets to the sunni tribes. H he has been very supportive of getting local actors into the fight, and thats obviously central to our Campaign Strategy against i. S. I. L. So weve really seen it come to fruition is in Anbar Province. In Anbar Province, we have now working with the Iraqi Security forces and the tribes, people arent paying as much attention to this but its pretty important, about 15,000 tribal fighters are mobilized. They have now cleared from ramadi, marched up the you the euphrates valley, to the town of heat that i. S. I. L didnt want to give up. In the middle of the cry circumstances the tribes in anbar and Iraqi Security forces broke a siege of a how often called haditha, under siege by i. S. I. L for about two years. So the progress in Anbar Province is important. The tribes are mobilizing, fighting with the Iraqi Security forces. Its very difficult, but abadi has been flushing resources to the local level. Another example of where that has come to fruition is if you go north of baghdad, anbar, of course, is to the west. North of baghdad, the city of tikrit, so an iconic sunni city, former home of Saddam Hussein i. S. I. L came in there in the summer of 2014, committed mass atrocities, killed thousands of people, of these young army recruits, put it on youtube i was in iraq at the time horrific, caused a psychological collapse in the country, the sense i. S. I. L is coming all the way down to baghdad. When the iraqis cleared tikrit, the city was almost depopulated. So we worked with the iraqi government, abadi and the local leaders of sal adean province to flush forces to the local level to get teampeople back into their homes because what is important is what happens after i. S. I. L and to have displaced people come back to their homes. We looked at how long it takes in these sectarian conflicts, it can take years for people to come back. One of the hardest things to do. But in tikrit, the combination flushing resources to the local level, the u. N. Did a great job identifying what had to be done to get people back and now almost 95 , according to the figures from the u. N. , 95 of the population is back in their homes in tikrit. Its really quite remarkable, and its happened because the government of iraq and abadi had an agenda to decentralize, push resources down to the local level, trust the local leaders to bring people back to their homes. Now in ramadi, were trying to do the same thing to bring people back. What makes it so difficult, and this gets to the nature of i. S. I. L and the enemy were fighting, theyre so barbaric. In ramadi, we found almost every home is wired with what we call i. E. D. S, land mines, and they put them in peoples refrigerators, childrens toys. So 65,000 people have come back to ramadi but since they have about 100 were killed by i. E. D. S. So the government put a halt on the returnees. We worked as the coalition immediately raised 15 million, we got in one of the Top Companies in the world to help go clear the i. E. D. S, so theyre on the streets clearing i. E. D. S in ramadi to help bring people back to their homes. This is only happening because the Government Supports this decentralization agenda. Not to overstate the challenges. This is extremely, extremely difficult. Weve had a very hard couple of weeks. Its concerning. The protests in the streets, certainly the breech of the green zone. Rose the imemergence of muqtada. Its ironic. Hes taken on the mantel of the nonsectarian, and thety corruption, thats his cause which if you fall low iraq in the last decade, theres irony to that, so i dont think anyone particularly trusts him, but well see where this goes. Rose we lost a navy seal this week. Terribly sad. These guys, ive got ton know a lot of them, are special forces and obviously all the men and women serving in iraq. The special forces do an advise and assist mission. Let me talk about how critical what this Young Navy Seal was doing and his comrades. Whatt they do to advise and assist operations against i. S. I. L has been a bit of a game changer. When ramadi fell in may about a year ago, very daunting, we met with the National Security team in the situation room. The president was presented with a very good plan from general austin and the department of defense to set up an advise facility east of ramadi, small teams of special forces to go to an air base to help mobilize the tribes and Security Forces and help them get on their feet and take ramadi. It looked like a daunting challenge and the navy seals took up the mission. L in Northern Iraq we have special forces doing that advise and assist mission with peshmerga and doing direct action raids against i. S. I. L targets from time to time, and they have been extremely effective. Rose let me underline that. So they have been going out doing direct offensive mission along with the peshmerga and others . Yes. Usually, they have peshmerga and other Iraqi Counterterrorism service with them. Rose operating against i. S. I. L in iraq. What secretary carter called raids. If we see an i. S. I. L leader and were tracking these people and there is an opportunity to capture them and find out what they know, i think thats one of the things weve learned is what they do, and its been very effective. Rose i want to come back to that. The effectiveness of our strategy and how do you see it. Part of what is argued by the pentagon is we are taking out in a significant way a level of i. S. I. L leadership. About every three days now were taking out a significant leader, not just our forces but the Coalition Air power, Iraqi Counterterrorism services and also the Syrian Forces, some of the Syrian Kurdish forces we work with in particular. But ill give you an example of the effectiveness and why we have to do this. About a year ago, now, look, we know more about i. S. I. L now than we could have imagined two years ago, and we know that because of this painstaking intelligence work weve done, but that comes by the real heroism of our people who are out there and its important for the American People to know what theyre doing out there. About a year ago we identified a deputy of albaghdadi, the financier of i. S. I. L he knew where everything was. You could target him from the air or try to capture him, and he was deep inside syria in shadadi, which weve taken from i. S. I. L. But back then i was a heart land of i. S. I. L, their leaders were based there. Our special forms went from Northern Iraq, went into the heart of shaddadi. Abu sayef was killed but the information they took off him was great. How i. S. I. L is financed, what theyre doing with the oil theyre getting out of the ground and we put that into a targeting process so that we can be effective and precise in our targeting. So we have since learned that i. S. I. L was making about a billion dollars every year, about 500 million from oil gas, 500 million from extortion, taxes, antiquities trade, so weve broken it down and reduced their ability to resource themselves dramatically, the number is down by 30 or more. We think theyve cut the salaries for the fighters in half. And the mosul, where theyre under tremendous pressure, because to have the the painstaking intelligence work, we learned where theyre keeping all the cash. The question we used to ask how do they pay these people and where is the cash. We found out where the cash was and its a tremendous work by our inner agency team. Treasury is a part of this, intelligence community, dod kind of all working together. We found out where the cash was and were able to target it and its been more effective that be we thought. We think were taken about a billion dollars of their cash and they cant regenerate that cash, so its had a significant impact. Rose but is the leadership of i. S. I. S. Or i. S. I. L in raqqa syria, influences what happens in iraq as well as syria thats where the top leadership is said to be . Yes, we think theyre around rack cay the top leaders. But i tell you whats happened in the last six months and why the situation is not going particular well for them in iraq and syria. They used to travel freely between raqqa and mosul. Not anymore. Weve cut off all those roadways, working with the syrian kurds and with a coals of syrian air fighters pushing down in Eastern Syria taking shadady cutting off all the roads. So we basically isolated raqqa and mosul, for them to get between raqqa and mosul, they have to take the back roads, which makes it a little easier for us. So theyre isolated now in these two areas. I think most of their leaders, we think, are probably in raqqa were inside the network, thats how were picking up and killing so many of their leaders. But we also recognize that i. S. I. L is director brendan last weekend called it a phenomenon, it is a phenomenon. Its important to understand how do you make sense of Something Like this and we analyze it in three dimensions. There is the core in iraq and syria. You have to shrink the core and the amount of territory they control. We are shrinking it. About 45 in iraq and less in syria but strategic lands in syria. Theres the core in syria. There is the global networks, propaganda, recruiting and financing networks, then eight selfdeclared affiliates around the world. With one were most concerned about is libya. So its the core, the networks and the affiliates. So it truly is a global problem a Global Challenge which is why we built the Global Coalition. Rose how much support or how successful have they been in recruiting al quaida and other groups to pay allegiance to them . Now, im using al quaida as al quaida members or some spinoff from al quaida because they have tried to establish themselves as the principal terrorist organization. Yeah, so theres this kind of competition between i. S. I. L and al quaida. I mean, look at syria. The al quaida affiliate in syria which answers to sway zawahiril in pakistan, i. S. I. L is the same mindset, but they both came from al quaida and iraq, came out of zarqawi, migrated to syria and split. The split happened when baghdadi said we want to establish a caliphate, and i think there is a debate within the jihadi circles, thats not a smart thing to do. Rose it is said bin laden was always opposed to that. Right, the argument was, once you do that, it wont be popular, you will be vulnerable because you cant govern like a state and we have other things to do first. Rose they would say its a great recruiting tool, shows were doing something and by doing something the caliphate suggests were creating a state. Yes. I was in baghdad when baghdadi went to mosul and announced were establishing a caliphate. Wasnt sure what the consequences would be but it supercharged the global recruiting. I hear this when i travel all around the world, what is driving so many of your young people to i. S. I. L and it is the the common denominator is this notion of a caliphate this Historic Movement, come be a part of it. It has had a dramatic effect on the recruiting. When they were able to say join the caliphate, its an Historic Movement and expanding. The catch phrase is retain and expand. Thats what the say in their propaganda, the flags taking over the middle east. They cant now because its shrinking. Now theyre saying join this movement, were under test and challenge and thats why you have to join. Its a different message than come be a part of this kind of historic, linear, expanding homeland of which you can be a part of and where you will be taking care of. Because its shrinking is shrinking dramatically and will continue to shrink. Rose do we know if theyre getting support from within the countries that are a part of the coalition, nongovernmental, but people of influence and, in some cases, institutions, foundationings and others, who have been very supportive of the expansion of wahhabism and in some cases supporting i. S. I. L . When it comes to i. S. I. L, i think weve pretty much shut that off. So all of our best information now is that i. S. I. Ls resources is selfgenerating, so they are very dependent upon the territory they control. Thats why theyre still trying to take oil fields, gas fields theyre not being very successful. But its mostly self generating. Think we pretty much cut off the external and there is a reason for that. We were just in saudi arabia. I. S. I. L is in saudi arabia. Theyre trying to launch an attack. We had very good meetings with the saudis about every 12 days an attack is launched or broken up by the saudis. Rose at the same