Enforcement. And i think that thats part of it. I think its part of it, sort of thinking about what is it we want our officers to be doing . What is their role, you know, and sort of just acknowledging, like, what we ask of them when we put them on the front lines. Rose and we continue with comment and perspective from charles blow, a columnist for the New York Times. There are two things happening simultaneously here, i think. There is a focus, necessarily, on interpersonal racism, what you and i may share back and forth, whatever biases i may have, whether im aware of them or not aware of them, and thats a very real conflict when people come into contact with each other, particularly in heightened situations of kind of stress. There is another conversation being had about the systemic forces of racism, the kind of racism that does not require any active participation by any particular person, and those are the sorts of structures that push these two populations of people into contact in the first place. Rose then we turn to john micklethwait, effort and chief of bloomberg for an analysis of the new Prime Minister to be in great britain. There are a lot of europeans who would argue they are not enthusiastic about george but are now extremely confident to keep him in that place but now aosborne is less toxic of those who want to leave. Rose derek pitts, lauren grus h and Miriam Cramer about what juno spacecraft is learning about jupiter. Jupiter is probably the first planet to comecnto form after the sun was formed and probably in a way jupiter represents sort of a museum of the early history of the solar system. The more we can understand about jupiter, the more we can understand about the formation of our solar system and how the plants formed. Rose tragedy in rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with the aftermath of the shootings last thursday night in dallas. The city is in mourning after the five Police Officers were gunned down at the hands of a lone assassin, micah johnson. The attack marked the deadliest day for Law Enforcement since 9 11. Thursdays massacre came on the heels of two caught on video Police Shootings of black men in minnesota and louisiana, president obama will speak tomorrow at an interfaith memorial service. President is expected to meet with families and local Law Enforcement officials. Manny fernandez, chief of the bureau at the New York Times, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me on. Rose give us an expectation of the president and Dallas Police coming together, with Vice President biden. Dallas is in a very interesting point now because, on the one hand, when you walk around downtown, its a very relaxed, typical city. Theres a bunch of school kids coming in my hotel as i was leaving, getting ready for some sort of event. Yet, on the other hand, there is a hint of tension and there is just a lot of grief. I talked to one Police Officer yesterday, and he said that it took him 30 minutes to go from his car to go inside a store and buy a coke and then walk out because so many people stopped to shake his hand, to hug him, to interrupt him, to come up to him. And then as i talk to him for a uh few minutes, people came up to him out of the blue and shook his hand, asked him how he was doing. That really sort of kind of captures for me what the city is going through right now. Rose part of it, for me, too, is the chief of police seems to have done and communicates both with the sense of calmness, integrity, and understanding. Yeah, his role and his sort of Performance Today at this press conference in the morning really sets the tone, and youre right, hes been extraordinarily personal, hes been extraordinarily frank and honest, he hasnt shied away from talking about race and talking about how hard it is to be a police chief. This morning, he used a little bit of humor. He talked about i think im quoting verbatim he said, my brain is fried. You just dont hear a police chief on the National Stage talk about that, use those phrases. Hes projected calm. We talked to a loft africanamerican residents who trust him and feel calm. Rose is there a sense that dallas believes in itself and can recover from this . Definitely, without a doubt. You hear that not only in the public sort of statements and in the, you know, press releases and in sort of the official side of things, but you see it in the unofficial side, you see it in just talking to people, in just walking around. You know, dallas, everyone is talking about this sort of dallas strong sort of idea. Rose yes, yes. And, by the way, can i just say that, you know, dallas has been really sort of, you know, battered in the last couple of years. Not only did you have the ebola crisis, but then you also had, last year, you had a gunman in an armoreds;n vehicle attack poe headquarters downtown, and some of those very officers that were fired on last year were fired on this year, and i just think that that, you know, there is that little sense of a beleaguerment, of a what is happening, but there definitely is a resilience at the same time. Dallas lived with the idea for a long time after the kennedy assassination that it was the city of hate. Yes. Rose they had to over come that and had overcome that. Yeah, and that phrase, that motto, that really stung the city, and it continues to sting the city, and one of the things that happened was that, on the anniversary of the j. F. K. Assassination, the 50t 50th anniversary, dallas used that as a way to look at itself in the mirror and say, were with we a city of hate . Were we a city of hate . What does it mean if we were . What are we now . Going through that process, i was there for some of those events, that helped dallas sort of deal with itself and its future and its past. Rose and the mayor . Hows he doing . The same way. I think hes done great. A lot of people have praised what hes doing. You know, these are officials that are going through something extraordinary. Theyre dealing with the investigation, theyre dealing with the grief, theyre dealing with a little bit of the chaos, and theyre able to not forget that theyre human and to sort of talk in very human ways, and i think in a way that helps calm people. It helps calm the city in a lot of ways. Rose everybody is asking all kinds of questions about, you know, this unraveling of this relationship between a segment of the population and the police you. Hear eloquent voices within the police like the chief suggesting, you know, were talking about where there have been awful acts by the police, theres a small minority of the police, that we have a lot of men and women risking their lives and this is a terrible reflexion on them to see these kinds of things and we hate them as much as anyone else does, yet they continue to happen, yet we seem to be a society in not knowing how to find a way to get on the journey to healing. You know, thats true. The only thing that comes to mind is i go back to this morning with the chief and near the top of that press conference, he gave one of the best summaries of what its like to be a policeman in america today. Ive heard from other Police Officers, and essentially the chief was saying we put too much on our officers, we expect our officers to solve too much of societys problems. Rose right. Schools fail, give it to the cops. There is a loose dog problem in drays, give to it in dallas, give it to the cops. He went through the litany and he said, its too much. Ive heard it worded differently from a lot of people in Law Enforcement. I think thats part of it, thinking about what is it we want our officers to be doing . What is their role . You know, and sort of just acknowledging, like, what we ask of them when we put them on the front lines. Rose da dan balz wrote in the washington post, a president ial campaign that convulsed the country in more than a year suddenly seems small in the face in the shocks from dallas, louisiana, minnesota and the racial divisions they exposed again. He has a point, doesnt he . He does. Even for the reporters covering, this how are the kids doing, is everyone okay, it really puts things in perspective. There was a false alarm the other day at the Dallas Police headquarters. There was word of a suspicious person in a parking garage at the back of dallas p. D. Headquarters, and that caused a scare downtown. The police shut the streets down. There were s. W. A. T. Officers with their weapons, and there were some members of the public who happened to be caught up in this because they were at the memorial outside of the headquarters, and to be there and to talk to regular people and see how scared they are, it brought some of that home. There was this idea of everyone was sort of, like, whats happening now . What is is this . You know, it struck home. Rose manny, thank you for coming. Pleasure to have you on the program. Hope we can do it again. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Rose well be right back. Stay with us. Rose we continue our conversation about police use of force, about force applied and violence applied against the police and the idea of the black lives matter movement. We talked to charles blow, a New York Times oped columnist and contributor to cnn. Im very pleads to have him at the table. Welcome. Thank you. Rose you have said this tears at the fabric of our nation. Right. Rose give us a sense of how you i mean, whenever we see the one more story, one more story right. Rose of a minority person being shot by the police, we say, why . Whats wrong . What do we need . And then when we see Something Like the rebellion against the police, we say, how could they do that when these are people who are trying to support us, for the vast majority of them . You know . Right. I mean, there are two things happening simultaneously here, i think. There is a focus necessarily on interpersonal racism. What you and i may share back and forth, whatever biases i may have, whether im aware of them or not aware of them, and thats a very real conflict when people come into contact with each other, particularly in heightened situations of kind of stress. There is another conversation being had about the systemic forces of racism, the kind of racism that does not require any active participation by any particular person and those are the sorts of structures that push these two populations of people into contact in the first place, and i think that having both those conversations simultaneously are really incredibly important is that some will draw the line back to slavery and say we have never dealt with the aftermath of slavery even though there has been huge amounts of racial progress and laws have been changed. Absolutely, laws have been changed, sufficient dealing with slavery, you may actually argue that has not taken place. But in addition to that, we also have to talk about all the things that happened after slavery, all the structural inequities that we as a society put into place from federal, state and local municipalities that created the kind of continueconcentrated poverty wee that created the american ghetto, everything from housing policies, loan and banking policies, these are infrastructure decisions about where we put our highways and streets and ways in and out of our cities, all of these are kind of systemic, structural things that we did as a society that created powder kegs, and then we then say, oh, these are personal choices that people have made to live in the toughest, most violent, poorest part of our cities, they simply made the choice to live there. In fact, they have not. We have designed a system that created those places. Then we say, well, there is violence bubbling up out of these places and thats why our police are there. But, no, we have to take the responsibility that we as americans created these places and these are our chickens coming home to roost and we have to deal with often tangling all of with untangling all of that at the same time we withre dealing with the tip of the spear, last interactions were dealing with. All of that has to be dealt with simultaneously. Rose how do you do it . To deal with it means what . Part of dealing with it is kind of legislative. There are, in fact, ways to deal with overpolicing. We make decisions about overpolicing, whether or not its stop and frisk in new york city or the colossal disaster that was the war on drugs, we made cultural decisions that this was how we were going to deal with particular problems, and dealing with those problems had incredible racial imbalances embedded in them. So we can take legislative steps to change our policies. That is really important. Martin luther king once said, the law may not make you love me, but it can stop you from lynching me. The idea that we can do things that will kind of limit the adverse impact on particular populations is a real the thing. Separate from that, thi there ie moral argument that must be won that says that there are not populations that are genetically prone to this violence, that there are conditions under which human beings behave in certain ways and we have contributed to making those conditions ripe for certain populations in this country and that we have to, as a country, figure out ways to back off from that. Rose is that president ial leadership or is it grassroots leadership . I think its all sorts of leadership, right, so that is this president and whoever the next one may be setting the proper tone for how to engage in a conversation, but it is also people voicing their opinions in protest and what have you. Rose i mentioned this to Manny Fernandez and we talked about it, it clearly is the president who has the bully pulpit and the executive resources to say, you know, we need the full weight of the Community Behind this. This is urgent, this is demanding, this is necessary. I think that he can do that, but as you and i both know, policing is kind of a local. Its not federal. He can talk but its very little federal government can do with local policing. We have to change hearts and minds so people who believe they are not part of this discussion, who look at it and say this is a conflict between the people who wear blue and people born into brown and black skin and that rub is happening separate from me and you, thats actually not the case. You are complicit in whatever the police do in this country because police simply are articulations of our desires and mores and laws. Rose whenever there is an act of violence and overexcessive use of force, then everybody is complicit in that act . No, im saying we are complicit if all of the architecture that pushes more and more of these people together and increases the number of interactions and then, when you increase the number of interactions, invariably, some one person will do some one thing wrong and that will be the end result of what we have done as a society to push them together in the first place. Rose to puck the to push the button. Right. Rose this is a decade kind of endeavor we have to make . I do believe these sorts of changes are generational changes. If you look at the kind of civil rights movements of our times, theyve all been generational. It looks like it happens within a couple of years but in fact there was a lot of groundwork that went into it, the civil rights movement, gay movement, womens libbing Regulation Movement womens liberation movement, all of them. Rose we always say this about gun control, these kinds of moments, that this one has been so troubling, the combination of baton rouge to dallas, that at long last we will wake up, or do you believe Something Else will come along and two weeks from now well be talking about Something Else . Strangely enough, i am kind of maybe ill logically optimistic always about this. Rose yeah, me, too. I actually believe that there is sort of an awakening of young people and being able to connect the dots, historical, cultural, present about what the system has done and how they operate and make choices in it. I believe that enlightenment is positive advance. Whether or not it immediately leads to some sort of peace and harmony, i have no clue. I believe, however, strongly in the longterm effect that knowledge is, in fact, a transformative thing and that coming into knowledge of self, coming into knowledge of systems is a transformative thing and that, in the long run, we will look back on this and see all of the ups and downs and all of the strife, that it was part of a positive. Rose i can hear people within reach of your voice thinking, i hope hes right. I want to talk about black lives matter and rudy giuliani, and in terms of i firmly believe he believes what he says, what do you say about that . You mean him saying it is inherently racist . Rose yeah, and blackonblack crime is a predominant crime in black neighborhoods and whiteonwhite in white neighborhoods, and white police are called into black neighborhoods to do whatever. Yes, of course. Its a fascinating deflection to say that people who point out that there are people who have been racially oppressed and want to lift those people out of that racial oppression by centering them in the conversation and elevate them to you are paying attention to what they have suffered are people whom are called racist. Its an incredible thing and an amazingly rhetorical slight of hand that you see all the time now. In terms of this idea that, you know, black communities are inherently violent and that white people are actually saving black people from killing themselves, that argument is inherently racist because it says at its base that there is something deficient and defective about you that we just save you from that we must save you from yourselves, rather than turning the lens rose thats deeply racist. Absolutely. Rose black lives matter, where did it start and what is its mission . Im not part of black lives matter. It gained steam after the Mike Brown Killing in ferguson, right . Rose right. And it has grown incredibly as an idea. This is both the formal structure of it, which is there are actually chapters, you know, but there are also people who just sympathize with, an