Seriously about their relationship to these laws and will we maintain the posture of saying we want an exception here and here. Heres a nice family, a good immigrant family, or are people going to start looking at the longterm consequences of these laws and saying, you know what, having facilities all over the country keeping people locked up instead of allowing them to work, we moving people from their families and their jobs, something is problematic about that. Hockenberry we conclude with Fashion Designer and philanthropist tory burch. She talks to katie couric about her career. Instinct is good. If you believe in your vision, its important to follow it when you have a unique point of view. When i havent gone with my instinct is when weve gone wrong. With any Great Company, you need to be flexible. When you make a mistake, react quickly and i keep thinking of grace under pressure. Michael weiss, Jackie Stevens and tory burch when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Hockenberry good evening, im John Hockenberry filling in for charlie rose. We begin tonight overseas with the state, you probably know it as i. S. I. S. Iraqi forces have taken all but the western part of the city of mosul, the last i. S. I. S. Stronghold in that country. In syria, hundreds of u. S. Marines and artillery are joining local forces in preparation for an assault of the i. S. I. S. Capital of raqqa. This safe to hope this is beginning to have the end to i. S. I. S. . Michael weiss, coauthor of isis inside the army of terror, just updated and reprinted in a new edition. Pleased to we can imhim to the program. Thank you. Hockenberry seems mosul is in transition and were starting on raqqa. And part of the ambition is to keep i. S. I. S. From fortifying raqqa. A lot are fleeing from mosul because they will lose the city in a matter of weeks, so the goal is to squeeze both ends to have balloon at the same time. But raqqa i fear is going to be moch more difficult fight, not only because it is the de facto capital of their socalled caliphate, but the forces are not necessarily going to be welcomed in as liberators. So the organization or the Umbrella Group thats going to lead the fight is called the Syrian Democratic forces, largely kurdish in composition and almost wholly kurdish many military dom nanls. The sunni arabs who are part of the umbrella are kept down, theyre not allowed to exert political will for a reason, because the kurds are making their state in syria with the backing of american fire power and jets overhead. The deployment of this military force, a couple hundred marines, army rangers in syria, yes, theyre going to be fighting i. S. I. S. And waging indirect fire int in raqqa and squeezing i. S. I. S. Out of the raqqa province, but theyre more to keep piece between the kurds and the sunnis. So you have operation you euphrs shield, and they have cleared out Northern Aleppo and albab, i. S. I. S. s intelligence wing, sort of langley or c. I. A. But the kurds intervened to stop the kurds from building their statelet. They dont want the kurds west of the Euphrates River because the Kurdish Military force mounting the campaign is essentially a syrian offshoot of the pkk. They have been at war with turkey for 40 years and the turks see them as a greater threat than i. S. I. S. In the long term. So there are so many inherent continue digs to operation resolve, its almost embarrassing to say. American military forces are deployed essentially to keeping two American Allies from going to war with each other even more than waging the fight hockenberry is that because the u. S. Deems it important that the u. S. Be there to be this kind of military mediator, or have the turks demanded this as part of supporting this coalition in some way . The turks wanted to go into raqqa. They wanted to lead as part of euphrates shield, a garrison of sunni turkman, a lot of people have been peeled off from the free syrian army, a lot under the train and equip program that ended in calamity several months ago. But now the turks are blocked by the syrian forces, American Forces have been redeployed there to essentially hold the turks at bay. Erdogans ambition is countered by the pentagon, frankly. According to everything reported in the last several weeks we at the daily beast call it obama on steroids. I and others who study this think it is fraught with complications. Look, you dont use a minority to liberate a majority. Sort of middle east 101. The reason mosul has proceeded and the reason iraq has learned from mistake is the force they are using to march into mosul, not the shia militias, groups trained up by the iranian revolutionariranianrevolutionart mostly these are elite counterterrorism units, professionalized military divisions of the iraqi army that consist of sunni, shia, christians and other minority groups, these guys arent going in to help iran plant their flag. Thats working in mosul. In syria, any kind of accounting for the demographic and sectarian tensions if that country seems to have gone out the window and right now were saying lets just get the job done quickly. The kurds are good at fighting i. S. I. S. , a trusted and reliable proxy, well worry about the political aftermath later. My problem is political aftermath is all. Militarily you can defeat organizations like i. S. I. S. , we did it in 2010 known as al quaida and iraq. Its what comes next that you have to worry about. It was lets think about that. Number one, are americans aware theraware,when were talking abt fighting i. S. I. S. , i recall no u. S. Boots on the ground youre talking about hundreds of marines potentially facing i. S. I. S. Troops. The first i. S. I. S. Casualty that is in a u. S. Uniform is going to be big news and big propaganda news for i. S. I. S. Completely. I recall when the debate about whether or not to intervene in syria to counter the assad regime and proxies took place, the state Department Said we dont want to send 18yearolds to damascus. Instead we send them to raqqa, which is a place people heard of even less than damascus. This is a game of mission creep, if you like, the idea america could reduce its footprint or obliterate its footprint in the middle east, i thought this was a fantasy. One of the options i put forward and my coworker and i outlined this in a recent article is americas biggest mistake in iraq was not only military withdrawal but political disengagement from the country. We washed our hands, said you deal with this mess, you dont like the troops we helped defeat iraq, go to the green zone and parlay with them yourself in. Syria, its more dangerous simply because the United States has intervened, iran has intervened to such an extent they built up militias and proxy armies that really are running the Security Portfolio for assad. There was a piece this week that said assads army doesnt exist, even the russians said when they intervened in 2015, there are only about 6,000 combat ready forces beholden to the syrian army. Now gangsters. Its all proxies. Hockenberry and some russians. Yes. The russian protect rat in Eastern Syria while helping the pkk in northern syria, while essentially leaving assad the 35 of tear rain that he now controls which he considers to be a victory in this war, hell never be in control of all syria, the country is vulcanized, but what is americas end game and what are we doing the protect the bellwether constituency which i. S. I. S. Cannot thrive again, and the tribesmen who occupy jay jazeera and western and central iraq. We need to think of it as two nation states. You will never see a cohesive and integrated state of syria come out of the ashes of whats left of i. S. I. S. Hockenberry so either i. S. I. S. Is done and it means nothing, or i. S. I. S. Is not done, which would you pick . I. S. I. S. Is not done. Theyve already been planning for this. Their dearly departed spokesman, in his last communique of last year, he said, look well, he didnt say it explicitly but it was implicit in the message, were going to lose our state. So well return to the desert where rebuilt up in the 20082011 period after the Sunni Awakening in iraq and surge drove us out of that country. Theyre planning to do it again. So if america says youve lost mosul, fallujah, ramadi, raqqa, were out of here. Guess what . I. S. I. S. 2. 0. It may not look exactly the same as now, and already i can tell you im noticing a transformation i never thought i would notice with an organization like this. When founded as al quaida and iraq, it was led by foreign fighters, most famously alzarqawi. Over time it was taken over by native iraqis including former agents of saddam husseins baath party, military apparatus, military intelligence services. As of 2014, half of the shirr council consisted of former saddamists we knocked out of power. Those guys are largely dead. Now what im seeing is europeans and central asians, particularly who speak russian, rising to the forein this organization. Hockenberry President Trump made good on his promise to defeat i. S. I. S. But something will replace it. Yes, and also redouble it was to strike in the west. They speak the language, come from these societies, and as one i. S. I. S. Defector said they understand the strength and weaknesses of the societies. They know what a soft target is like. Theyve transgressed through International Airports in paris, brussels and berlin. So you will see that phenomenon happen. As they lose their caliphate, they will branch out. They had a province in libya. Theyve got one in afghanistan. Theyve got one in russia. These are not places where they exercise command and control. Albaghdadi didnt necessarily pick up the phone and say i want you to march a column of soldiers into this neighborhood or village, but there is still concern in terms of international jihaddism. People are still joining. What we are finding is and this is a cliche what looks as lone wolf attacks, are in fact being run remotely through the internet and linked up with other people whoivel cultivated or recruited. Hockenberry the battle of raqqa has begun, but what comes next does not look pretty. Michael weiss, editor of the daily beast. Thank you so much. Sure. Hockenberry growers in california and alabama may be worried about the sund shortage of undocumented immigrants to work their field, but the private prison industry stands to benefit. The department of Homeland Security has been asked by the white house to find 80,000 bed for detainees, doubling capacity, and as detention goes up, so does the prison industrys profits. Here to discuss the aggressive new defensive policies, Jackie Stevens, heads the Deportation Research Clinic at northwestern universitys institute. Welcome to the show, first of all. Lets talk a little bit about what we can expect from the aggressive policies from the Trump Administration. Well, i think what well see is a return to the raids and, you know, uptick in detentions and arrests and deportations that go back to the Bush Administration years. Right now the detentions were going down since 2012, and now there will be an uptick. Hockenberry i think people are prepared for detentions, but what is not widely known is the infrastructure for dealing with the number of people that are involved here is on a scale that i dont think Many Americans are aware of. Could you give us a sense of where people go when theyre detained, how long they stay and this sounds to me like a shadow prison system. Right, well, thats definitely whats been put in place since the early 2000s, and it really goes back to a law passed under the clinton administration, the 1996 law that increased the possibilities for people to be deported who have been in the country for a very long period of time, and took away a lot of discretion from judges ability to appeal decisions. Weve seen an increase in detention to 475,000 people a year detained under the Obama Administration in 2012. To accommodate that increase in detention and deportation, there has been a big upswing on private prison industry, which itself played a very, very active role in lobbying to accommodate those kinds of ends. In 2010, Congress Passed a law requiring that the government maintain, on average, no fewer than 34,000 beds a day in order to keep people in custody under immigration laws. There is no comparable law for requiring people to be locked up absent any particular penalty in the penal system. So, you know, this is law that was lobbied for aggressively by the prison industry and is still on the books today, and its outrageous, and its not anything that would be consistent even with conservative values, which would, you know, tend to want to limit government. Its something that is, you know, again, going to be experiencing. Its the basis for the kinds of policies that will be allowing the expansion of the prison industry going forward. Hockenberry first the question of the relationship with the prison industry. Is it the case that there is an incentive for private prisons to take detainees because at a get some sort of reimbursement from the federal government, and then that money goes into their revenue stream . Well, right. I mean, in order to keep people locked up, ice develops a lot of contracts, and about 65 of people in custody now are in custody with firms that, are you know, privately owned. The balance are in wings of county jails that are rented out by ice. Hockenberry and, so, this could be in any community. There could be an Ice Detention Center down the street, and you might not know it, because its either a part of an existing prison system or its just a wholly new facility. How would you know . Well, you know, there is actually some really good data that are available through a web site run by track at syracuse university, and if people want to find out where the facilities are, that would be a really good place to look. They have a number of different interfaces for Law Enforcement data from the government, and one of them has information on immigration detention facilities, including the private facilities, as well as the places that are kind of off the grid that might be in a local neighborhood, they might be in an office park, even, and not have the sign and not even have a u. S. Flag, and many of those also are listed on that web site. Hockenberry and this is not toncrease awareness because we consider these people dangerous. I mean, it is the case that most the vast majority have committed no crime, theyre just on their way out of the country and are in a kind of suspended detention that could be fairly openended depending on the speed of the governments detention hearings and the like. Well, right. Well, just to be really clear about this, you know, many of the people who are being held are actually challenging their deportation order. So they get an order that says ice believes youre not in the country lawfully, and theyre allowed, in many contexts, an opportunity to contest that charge in immigration court. So the people who are being held in ice custody are not being held because they have been convicted of any particular immigration crime, or any other crime. Theyre being held because they are challenging a civil order to deport them. They are administrative detainees. Theyre not there because they have been convicted of a crime. They are being held because theyre either a flight risk or there might be some factors in their record that would suggest theyre a danger to the community and additional risk factors construed as bed space availability. Those are the three factors ice detention officers weigh when deciding whether to keep someone locked up or allow them to be free while appealing their deportation order. Many people who are detained actually have their orders terminated or have other discretionary release, and, so, theyre actually not deported. So theres a whole range of different kinds of outcomes. Its also important to point out that thousands of people being held in these facilities are u. S. Citizens, and these people are completely, you know, unlawfully detained and, you know, held under very horrible conditions. Hockenberry let me stop you on that one. Theyre u. S. Citizens because theyre caught in a dragnet inat verntdly . Or what is the reason a large number of american citizens would be in this system . These are typically young men of color coming out of the prison system or some other encounter with Law Enforcement and their claims of u. S. Citizenship are disbelieved. Evidence consistent with deporting them is treated as accurate an and other evidence s discredited. Hockenberry there are people who will say the depondensy of individuals who illegally came into the United States doesnt concern me a lot, they took the risk, theyre in this situation, why should i be terribly outraged by this even if it is at this scale . Right. So i think there are a couple of ways to think about this question. One is about the magnitude of the response to what is a civil infraction. Many of the people who are locked up are here on visa overstays and so forth and theyve violated no criminal laws. The second question does, i think, have to do with a very serious question this country is coming to terms with now and that has to do with our deportation laws and our borders. I think were at a moment now that reminds me perhaps of where the country was in the 1850s, and this was in the context of there being legal slavery in the south, but in 1850 Congress Passed the fugitive slave act, and that allowed the slave catchers to go into the north and required communities there to return escaped slaves to the south. Communities in the north, in the past, may not have been so, you know, favorable about