State of depression. They moved through the stages of grief with regards to the death of the recall referendum from mourning to anger to bargaining and now i think were in a situation of pretty much depression where there does pt feel like there doesnt feel like there is a sense of possibility or hope about political change. Hockenberry we conclude with William Cohans conversation with journalist vicky ward. Her new piece is called the blow it all up billionaires. Whats really different about the mercers is not only did they lobby very hard the to have their preferred candidate and their and people they knew very well to then work with him, they actually want to blow up the system, the whole political system. They wanted to blow up the republican establishment. Hockenberry mark landler, chris chris, michael mccarthy, and vicky ward when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications hockenberry good evening, everybody. Im John Hockenberry filling in for charlie rose. We begin this evening with a look at President Trumps meeting with german chancellor Angela Merkel. It was their first facetoface meeting since trump took office. In the past trump has been critical of merkels leadership. He said germany made a catastrophic mistake in welcoming more than a million migrants and refugees in recent years. During todays summit, trump expressed strong support for n. A. T. O. But emphasized member nations should pay what they owe to support the alliance. Mark landler joins me from washington. Welcome. Good to be here, john. Hockenberry mark, would you say this is a test of the relationship between merkel and trump . Seems to me always when i look at the body language merkel that she, from the beginning, has not known what to make of this man. Is that settling down, is there more of a clarity here . Well, i think, john, that Angela Merkel is someone whos used to dealing with mercurial sort of testosteronestyle men, if you l. Shes dealt with Vladimir Putin in russia, berlusconi in italy, xi jinping in china, erdogan in turkey, and now shes dealing with donald trump in the United States. The u. S. Is such a Major Trading partner and ally of the u. S. That merkel has to figure out how to work with the new american president , and i think thats what you saw today. Whatever she may make of him and it would be wonderful to know what her inside or interior oughts are she was going to make this relationship work. She came to washington to try to find some common ground, and i think the News Conference they held together was an illustration of two people who are literally polls apart on some of these crucial issues, but at least, from her perspective, trying to very hard to find a way to work october. Hockenberry i got try to find a way to work together. I got a sense she will take care of this part of the relationship, and he can take care of this part of the relationship. She kind of set out domains that she thought germany would be better to handle and other aspects of the migrant crisis that trump could deal with on his own and that that would build into a kind of bifurcated relationship that might function very well. Yeah, i think thats right. I mean, i think what she made a point of saying is that she is the leader of germany, will look after German National interests. She described a response to the migrant crisis thats obviously very different than what President Trump is talking about, but one that she thinks is suited to german interests. Likewise, on trade, which is the other major bone of contention between the two of them, she said, look, im also here to lobby for and push german interests, and she turned to him at one point and said a trade deal is only worth doing if both sides win. So i think youre right, she was saying i will play my corner of the court, and you play yours, and that way, well be able to coexist and perhaps even work together. Hockenberry since before the end of the cold war, merkel was a leader early on in understanding how these forces work. Demographics have been a real warning sign in germany that the Workforce Needs to grow, needs to grow somehow, the birth rate needs to rise, isnt rising. Part of the impetus for migrants to come to germany is to add to the workforce. Its not an argument that donald trump really has much context with. He doesnt think about immigration in those terms. Is it possible that he that merkel expressed to him, look, heres another way of looking at it, and a lot of these nations really need to think about bringing workers in because its helpful for them for the precise reasons we want trade to work . Well, you know, people always say that donald trump is surprisingly receptive of the arguments of people he meets. That said, i mean, the United States is, as you say, blessed with very different demographics than germany or other western European Countries. Its got a younger population, more young people, so that argument simply isnt particularly applicable to the United States. We have other very valid reasons and historical reasons for being open to immigrants, but replenishing the workforce and creating new, younger citizens is not one of them. So i dont actually think that that argument probably makes much of an influence on him. I wonder whether its more on the tried side where, today, the two talked about German Companies and the role in apprenticing and training young workers. That might be an area where chancellor merkel can actually present donald trump some ideas that will make an impact, and thats actually the subject that they discussed after the News Conference, when they went back into the white house for lunch. What do you think the urgency is for Angela Merkel to figure out exactly what Donald Trumps relationship or intentions are with Vladimir Putin right now . Well, Angela Merkel has always been the leader in the west who has kind of served as the bridge to Vladimir Putin. She understand him perhaps better than any other leader in the west. Shes certainly met him more than perhaps any other leader in the west. So i think its vitally important for her to figure out what kind of a relationship donald trump is seeking, and thats not an easy question to answer in the current environment because, while President Trump came into office, calling for a new kind of relationship and a reset with russia, in recent days and i think its in part because of the continuing questions around the trump campaigns ties to the russians during the election youve seen the administration actually stake out a much more traditional position. Nikki haley, u. S. Ambassador to the u. N. , was quoted as saying we can never trust russia. So were in a bit of a fluid moment where you had a president who wanted to change the relationship but perhaps is finding out he has very little room to maneuver to do that and may, indeed, end up with a relationship thats much closer to the one the the Obama Administration had and hence to what chancellor merkel herself would be comfortable with. And would chancellor merkel be in a position to say, look, bear down on this if you like, but this isnt going to fly, these things, this never trust russia, and we have a problem in ukraine and we need to decide together how to deal with it, thats the priority . Yeah, i think probably what shell really tray to do is say, look, i know Vladimir Putin better than anyone. I have been working this issue now for years. The whole diplomatic process to try to resolve the situation in ukraine is something the germans have really spearheaded. You know, the American Administration said last week to reporters in advance of this meeting that donald trump would be interested and curious about chancellor merkels take on Vladimir Putin. For all his talk about putin, he doesnt actually know putin at all, so i think hell quiz her about how best to deal with the russian leader and, perhaps, as i said earlier, she could have an impact on him. He has a pension for listening to people and taking their ideas to water when they make a persuasive case. Hockenberry did you get any sense of the friendliness of them, the ways in which i mean, its so different to see how they address the reporters at a meeting like this. Well, to be honest, i thought it was, as i have thought to myself, sort of my tick lousily form m me meticulously forma. But to be fair, chancellor merkel is a brainy intellectual. Shes not a warm person. Even president obama, who she had, arguably, the best relationship that president obama had with a foreign leader, there wasnt a lot of sent mentality of putting their arms around each other, shes not like that. You remember the famous episode years and years ago where president bush put his hands on her shoulders and she sort of recoiled. Shes a lowkey, very intellectual person, and, so, i wouldnt have expected to see a sort of very emotional display. That said, these are really two people who have very little in common and are really poles apart on many issues and that distance came through today in the News Conference. Hockenberry so no touchy feely. Far from it. Hockenberry the last minute, what about the the notions of nationalism building in europe and such evidence that such nationalist sentiments are building in the United States . What would she want to say to donald trump about that . Well, you know, shes gotten a bit of good news on that front, recently. The far right populist party in the netherlands did not do well as some thought earlier in the week, in this election. Shes got her own farright party in germany that, months ago, many in germany were very worried about, but in recent months there is also evidence that party has declined in popularity, and were beginning to hear more of what theyre calling about a trump backlash, that some to have the far right populist movements in some European Countries appear to be running out of steam. So i think she probably feels better about that issue than she might have last november in the wake of Donald Trumps election. Hockenberry mark landler, thank you so much. Great to be here, john. Im Ethan Bronner filling in for charlie rose. Vins lawith more Proven Oil Reserves than saudi arabia was one of the most rich countries in the world. Governed by a socialist party and ravaged by corruption and inefficienty, it is now on the verge of collapse with spreading, rampant Violent Crime and triple digit inflation. How bad will it get . Is there a solution . How should the Trump Administration react . Joining me here in new york is chris sabatini, executive director of global americans and a professor of latin american studies at columbia university. From philadelphia, michael mccarthy, Research Fellow at american universitys center for latin american studies. Im pleased to welcome them to the program. So, chris, youre here in the studio with me. You will start with you. Just speak for a minute or two about how it got so bad given, you know, all the wealth and talent venezuela was payment for at one time. It was a conflict of issues. In 1998 when chavez was elected, the twoparty system dominated venezuela for almost 30 years basically imploded. You had an outside candidate, lieutenant colonel, who staged a coup earlier who came to power promising to clean up the system, and he did in that he did away with the old system, but doubled down on Venezuelas Oil wet, which as you say is considerable. Over the course of his socialistyentd economy, he basically consolidated the economy around oil. Today 96 of Venezuelas Oil exports are based on oil. That was fine when oil was prized at 120 a barrel, but today its around 40 a barrel and the country is hurting. And beyond that there are questions of institutions able to withstand the kind of corruption that came in with all of this. He broke down the barriers between the then semistate oil company and the government and basically raided its coffers which also meant he didnt invest in infrastructure and development. So production has been e central bank has been raided. As well, hes basically sort of corrupted and undermined and enviesiated demococratic institutions. The Electoral Commission is under his kroll and the congress has no power. Michael, a little less than a year ago, you wrote, i think, in the Washington Post that a venezuela is a powder keg, and you said that theres widespread social disorder and triggering instability throughout the continent. Now, im not saying sort of a reasonable thing to say, but is that right . Is that still true . Or has something lifted and why . Has something shifted and why . Great question, ethan. I think its fair to say that in 2016 the biggest fear those of us in politics had was the possibility of the country exploding in terms of social unrest. There was, in fact there were, in fact, a number of episodes of instability on a sort of citywide basis. However, the government hunkered down, deployed the armed forces to repress these protests as much as possible, and it managed to hold on to power. At the end of 2016, when the opposition managed to mobilize millions of the population on behalf of a recall referendum, the government then blocked that effort, which then set the stage for what people thought was going to be a clash in the last couple of months of 2016. But, lo and behold, an international supported dialogue process began immediately, and that cooled the street down and basically deescalated the situation as 2016 came to an end. I would describe the venezuelaian population as a state of depression. They moved through the state of grief with regards to the death of the recall referendum from mourning to anger, to bargaining, and now i think were in a situation of pretty much depression where there doesnt feel there is a sense of possibility or hope about political change. That helps explain why the beginning of 2017 has been calmer on the streets of venezuela despite the fact the country is experiencing a recession marked by hyperinftion pardon me i should say depression marked by hyperinflation and devere shortages. The thing is that this dialogue you mentioned that, as you say, calmed things down, was very much promoted by the United States government under president obama. I think the dialogue essentially collapsed but i would be eager to hear from both of you whether you think the dialogue was the right policy. I want to compliment him on what he said. This is a pouter keg. It may seem depressed now but what happened in venezuela is the disarticulation of the immediate cra and rules that could have provided an exit. You have a hyperpolerrized situation. 90 of the families are not getting enough food. You dont have medicines coming in. People waiting in long lines. There is a boiling caldron of discontent and the institutions are not there to mediate it and the government basically postponed what would have been a constitutional referendum or recall referendum and the elections of the governors so you dont have any exits. The hope was there could be a dialogue. The problem was both the United States and later the vatican intervened and also the union of south american lateral organizations tried to foster dialogue, but there were no rules to the dialogue. They were basically holding the government unaccountable for the basic rules and rights that it was violating. There were over 100 Political Prisoners in venezuela and not being released or on the table for discussions. Before i get to the dialogue, let me go back to something you said. Michael said, a year ago, said it was a powder keg. Now he says theyre in a state of depression. Seems to me there is a difference about whether the place is about to blow or too depressed to do anything. Is it your sense the streets could explode in venezuela . I think it could. The problem is the situation economically and socially has become so dire that people are pursuing basic human needs and basically scrounging in garbage to get food, people are starving. Poverty is at 80 . They are pursuing those basic survival needs now. That does not mean that there is not deepseated discontent and a level of repression from the government that, should they begin to protest and take to the streets, i simply dont know where it will go. Again, back to you michael, on this question, do you have a sense of when you spoke from moving from powder keg to depression, the impression you gave me was, you know, its not about to explode. Do you feel it is . Did i misunderstand you . I think your analysis of my review of 2016 is correct, ethan. I think, at this point, the venezuelan opposition leadership has a gigantic challenge in front of it which is to somehow get over the sense of demoralization that exists in the venezuelan population now and create a sense of belief again. Brings me to asking you whether the dialogue approach was a problematic one, from your perspective . So, i think that there needs to be some nuancing in terms of how we understand the dialogues negative effects in country in terms of taking away the oppositions main resource at that time, in october, november, which was street mobilization. And then to say that the opposition accepted a request from the vatican to