Transcripts For KYW 60 Minutes 20170521

Congratulations. Thanks, peter. Peter back to 18. Jim congratulations to billy horschel. Still shaking his head in disbelief. He moves into 15th in the fedexcup standings. Not the way i think anyone expected to see this end, nick. Nick no, not quite like that. We thought it will be two pars and off we go again. Definitely thought somebody was going to make a 3 at 1 but well done, billy. He was on the range early on. I said whos going to win . As he walked past he said horschel so there you go. Jim for nick the all the crew, lance barrow, home game for him, our producers, for everybody. Well see you next week from fort worth. Billy horschel wins the at t byron nelson. Captioning funded by cbs and ford. We go further, so you can. More than 800 american houses of worship are offering shelter from deportation to Illegal Immigrants and their families. Were taking a leap of faith, right, in many respects, because we dont know whats going to happen. Theyre daring federal agents to step through their stained glass doors. As a human being, i know it is traumatic for folks. But i will also say that the rule of law is something that america is built on. But this seems to be the one area where the narrative about separating families, you know, sort of gets a little bit ratcheted up. An average of 70,000 men and women pass through Cook County Jail each year. Many more than once. What percent do you think here really shouldnt be here . I would suggest, conservatively, that half of the people here in the jail shouldnt be here. The county sheriff, tom dart, says the jail has become a dumping ground for the poor and mentally ill. If theyre gonna make it so that i am gonna be the Largest Mental Health provider, were gonna be the best ones. Were going to treat em as a patient while theyre here. We are gonna think differently ai weiwei is chinas most famous political dissident. Hes also one of the most successful contemporary artists in the world a designer, sculptor, photographer and blogger whos earned legions of followers by using his art as a weapon to ridicule the authorities. Are you an artist, or are you an activist . I think, artist and activist is the same thing. Im steve kroft. Im lesley stahl. Im bill whitaker. Im anderson cooper. Im holly williams. Im scott pelley. Those stories, tonight on 60 minutes. ambient sounds, phone chirps hello. silverware clanking, chatter plates sliding tire sounds, car accelerating rain splashing, thundering pedal clanks, car braking chatter, bell dinging chatter thundering tire sounds we cut the price of trades to give investors even more value. And at 4. 95, you can trade with a clear advantage. Fidelity, where smarter investors will always be. And at 4. 95, you can trade with a clear advantage. It shouldnt be whateverfleas and ticks. Home. No, no no no no. 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Pelley there is a peaceful rebellion growing against federal immigration law, and the interpretation of that law by the Trump Administration. More than 800 houses of worship across the country have volunteered to shelter Illegal Immigrants and their families who face deportation, daring federal agents to step through their stained glass doors. The churches and synagogues are joining more than 600 cities and counties that have declared themselves sanctuaries ordering their police not to detain people if its only because of their immigration status. In no other venue of the law has so much of the nation stood in defiance of washington. Philadelphias arch Street Methodist Church was built by abraham lincolns favorite minister. Reverend Robin Hynicka we are a sanctuary church. Pelley and 155 years later, reverend Robin Hynicka is on the same chapter and verse. Hynicka my baptismal covenant, theres a vow thats taken either on my behalf when i was baptized as a child or as an adult, that i would take the power and the freedom that god gives me to resist evil, injustice, and oppression in whatever forms they show themselves. Pelley well, in your view, what is this, evil, injustice, or oppression . Hynicka its injustice and oppression, all of which is evil. Yeah, when a human beings human rights are denied, when they cant stay with their family, when they cant work, when they cant participate in the community in which they have deep roots, all of those apply. Pelley hes talking about Javier Flores garcia, who has lived in the Church Basement for six months. He came from mexico, illegally, in 1997. Hes a landscaper with a decade old d. U. I. On his record. His other offense is crossing the border repeatedly. A judge ordered him deported, but he moved here rather than leave his three children, who were born citizens. Javier garcia translated i think you have to keep fighting, and im doing this for my kids. And i would do it again if it became necessary. Hynicka were taking a leap of faith, right, in many respects, because we dont know whats going to happen. Pelley federal agents can arrest flores in the church, but u. S. Immigration and customs enforcement, known as ice, has a decadeslong policy of avoiding places of worship, schools and hospitals. Daniel ragsdale my advice would be, they should come out of the basement of the churches and follow the law. Pelley Daniel Ragsdale is Deputy Director of ice. He runs the daily operations and oversees 13,000 officers. Ragsdale so if they are to check in with ice, they should come and check in with ice. Pelley checking in with ice is going to get them deported. Ragsdale checking in with ice will follow the law. And in cases where theres a removal order, of course we would execute it. Pelley how much concern do you have about separating families in deportations . Ragsdale as a human being, i know it is traumatic for folks. But i will also say that the rule of law is something that america is built on. But this seems to be the one area where the narrative about separating families, you know, sort of gets a little bit ratcheted up. Pelley well, you can understand why. Ragsdale well, i can. But i would suggest that every person who has, you know, come to the United States illegally, just like if i went somewhere and, you know, resided in violation of law, i could expect at some point that sovereign country to want to remove me. Candidate trump were rounding em up in a very humane way, in a very nice way. And theyre gonna be happy, because they wanna be legalized. Pelley before the election, candidate trump told us he would deport all of an estimated 11 million Illegal Immigrants. Trump and, and, by the way, i know it doesnt sound nice. But not everything is nice. Pelley now, President Trump says hes pursuing violent criminal immigrants first. President trump you see whats happening at the border. All of a sudden for the first time, were getting gang members out, were getting drug lords out. Were getting really bad dudes out of this country. And at a rate that no one has ever seen before, and they are the bad ones. Pelley its not just the bad guys. The fact is, in the Trump Administration, according to ice, about 11,000 undocumented people with no criminal records have been detained so far. Thats twice as many as last year. Because of this, the number of religious institutions across the country offering sanctuary has doubled to 800. Just last week, this church in buffalo, new york, offered sanctuary to a family of six from honduras. The church has opened its doors to 40 Illegal Immigrants since january. When congregations in cities including phoenix, denver and philadelphia give sanctuary, they are in open defiance of immigration law. That leads me to wonder whether theres any internal conflict within you. I mean, you preach morals and yet youre breaking the law. Hynicka theres no conflict. I think ive said this before, that when a law breaks the backs of gods people, then its time for us to think about breaking those laws. Pelley trouble is, those laws never stop changing. And that is one reason the immigration debate is never settled. Since 1790, congress has rewritten immigration law, on average, about every four years. America imported Chinese Labor to build the transcontinental railroad. And when it was finished, congress banned all chinese. In world war i, nearly 20 of u. S. Forces were not citizens. In world war ii, america begged more than four million mexicans to come to work. And in 1986, Ronald Reagan granted amnesty to Illegal Immigrants. Trump day one, my first hour in office, those people are gone. Pelley mr. Trump blames immigrants for violence. He often fired up his rallies by raising the murder, by an illegal immigrant, of a woman in san francisco, a sanctuary city. But according to the department of justice, the incarceration rate for Illegal Immigrants is onethird that of citizens. Jim kenney to lay criminality at the feet of immigrants is not only morally unfair, it is factually wrong. Pelley one of jim kenneys first acts as mayor was to declare philadelphia a sanctuary, which means his police do not ask about citizenship, and will not hold Illegal Immigrants if the only reason is that ice wants to deport them. He says it violates the constitution to hold people without a warrant. There are more than 600 cities, counties and states that consider themselves sanctuaries. Two years ago, there were half as many. Trump weve ordered a crackdown on sanctuary cities. Pelley President Trump is now trying to cut off federal funds from these sanctuary cities, but hes been stopped so far by the courts. Kenney this is not a us versus them. This is this is we upholding the constitution of am the United States of america, and asking them to comply with it also by presenting us with a proper judicial warrant so we can release that person to their custody. Pelley the feds are talking about taking your federal money away. And mr. Mayor, i bet you cant afford that. Kenney no. But think about the conundrum that that that this presented. If you if you accept the assertion that undocumented immigrants cause crime which i do not accept, and i think its wrong why would you Defund Police departments . Pelley there are people shouting at the television right now, saying, if they came illegally, they shouldnt be here. Its a terrible thing, but they shouldnt have come. Kenney well, you know, ellis island had opened in 1892. The bulk of irish diaspora came to america in the 1840s. We didnt have papers either. We were undocumented. There was an antiitalian slur, when i was growing up in my neighborhood, called w. O. P. Thats without papers. If you come to the country without documents because youre starving in your country or youre being held hostage by drug dealers or youre afraid your children are going to be shot in the streets or on their farm, i think that thats self preservation and selfsurvival. And any group of people would flock to america, because thats been the Historic Place where people came to be saved. Sixto paz this is my country. Im working hard. Pelley sixto paz would have been deported ten months ago if he hadnt confined himself to Shadow Rock United Church of christ in phoenix. Ismael delgado moved in four months ago. Ismael delgado we came to work. Pelley paz crossed illegally in 1985. Under the policy of president reagan, he was granted a work permit, which was revoked under the policies of george w. Bush. His four children are citizens by birth. His youngest is five. Paz i spent 32 years over here, and i dont want to leave him alone. And i paid my taxes for 28 years. Pelley paid your taxes 28 years . Paz yes, yes. Pelley there are people watching the interview who are saying, you shouldnt have come here. Paz when someone, youre hungry, you not have a job, you not have money. What are you gonna do . I not come to United States to take vacation, man. Im here because i had to. Im come over here, and i respect all the law, i respect the people, im working hard to do the best. Ive got a clean record. And i learned a lot over here, i learned a language. Its not, i dont speak very well, but im working on that. And my son, my daughters, theyre professionals. Pelley you have two older daughters who are medical assistants . Paz yes. Pelley they both graduated from college here in the United States . Paz yes, yes, sir. Pelley sounds like the american dream. Paz yes. Pelley if the priority is serious criminal offenders, why are we seeing deportation orders for little old ladies and middleaged men whove never committed a crime . Ragsdale thats a great question. So if someone who was placed in removal proceedings goes through that entire process, again, all at taxpayer expense, and gets a removal order, if we encounter that person and that order has been litigated and challenged and due process has been met, its odd that anyone would expect us to simply ignore all those decisions by lawyers, by judges, by federal court judges in some cases, and simply say, were going to make policy on the street and ignore it. Pelley one of the changes in the guidance from the Obama Administration to the Trump Administration is that President Trumps executive order prioritizes the removal of those who entered illegally. Well, thats everybody. Thats 11 million people. Ragsdale well, we only have the same size workforce. Theres just no way that that could simply be done in any rapid fashion, which is why we are still focusing on the folks that i talked about, which are people that present the greatest risk to public safety. Hynicka javier embodies the spirit of sanctuary. He and we together are sanctuary. Pelley do you worry that the government might take steps against sanctuary congregations across the country . Hynicka i do worry about that. I think it would be a huge breach of the ageold traditions of providing, at least having some place in our Civil Society where there is, there is an opportunity to challenge laws, and policies, and procedures that are creating more injustice than they are creating justice. Pelley in rare cases, ice officers have made arrests near schools and churches. A man was arrested in california dropping his child at school, and in virginia, several Illegal Immigrants were arrested shortly after walking out of this church, leaving many to wonder, where are the lines once the borders been crossed . Ragsdale those are the laws that congress has passed. I dont think its anybodys question that if you dont have lawful status that at some point you could be removed. And i think thats something that people should be aware of. And, again, i think the president , when he announced the program, was pretty clear about that. Money watch update sponsored by lincoln financial, youre in charge. Good evening, the Congressional Budget Office is expected to release a cost estimate of the so called Trumpcare Bill this week. Housing reports are expected to show a hot market with a shortage of homes for sale. And tonight the ringling brothers circus endings its its 146 year run, im elaine quijano, cbs news. Will you be ready when the moment turns romantic . 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The county sheriff, tom dart, is getting a lot of the credit. A former prosecutor whos been elected and reelected sheriff since 2006, dart, as youll see, is unconventional. It was a cold day at Cook County Jail when we met tom dart. He has redefined the role of sheriff. He sees the job as not just keeping people in jail, but helping some of them get out. He says many behind bars shouldnt be there. Sheriff tom dart how are you guys doing . Pretty good. Stahl several times a month, dart mingles with the men in the jails minimum security division, all of whom have been charged with low level, non violent crimes. Dart whats your charge . I had a violation of probation. I was on probation for driving while license revoked. Stahl dart says the jail, with a population today of about 7,500, has become a dumping ground for the poor and mentally ill. What percent do you think here really shouldnt be here . Dart i would suggest, conservatively, that half of the people here in the jail shouldnt be here. That they dont stahl half . Dart they dont pose a danger to anybody. The people in most jails 95 of the people in this jail are waiting on a trial. So everybody here are people who havent been convicted yet. So you say to yourself, all right, theyre presumed innocent. Who is so dangerous that we need to hold them here while were waiting on a trial . You had some violence a long time ago . Nothing, a long time ago . So, nothing. Stahl as he makes the rounds, he sounds less like an incarcerator than a defense attorney. Dart i cant im not promising you guys anything, cause i dont know what the hell theyre going to do. But i promise you, we will push it. All right. Stahl the biggest problem for most of the inmates, he says, is they simply dont have enough money to make bail. Im trying to find out why my bonds so high. Stahl how many, percentage wise, people are really poor and cant afford bail . Dart on any given day, we have probably 200 to 300 people that, if they came up with 500, they would leave here. But we find that if you have access to money, wherever it may come from, and frequently its coming from your gang and if you happen to be the guy in your gang who is the guy who does most of the shootings, youre a very valuable person, they want you back out on the street. But you have some individual whos in here whos never been a danger to anybody, he cant come up with 100. Hes sitting. The guy with the gun, hes out the door. Next guy is possession of cannabis. Stahl he usually turns his notes over to his top advisor, cara smith, who runs what you might call a youshouldntbe here squad. Cara smith and what are you charged with . Retail theft. Smith and what did they say you tried to steal . Some red bulls. Smith some red bull drinks. Stahl smith and her staff hold office hours, looking for inmates they can help. Smith what we need to work on is trying to get your bond reduced so that you can bond out, so that you can get out of here. Okay. Smith okay . Yes. Smith okay. Good luck, well be in touch. Stahl combing through cases, cara smith discovered something disturbing. They call them dead days. Smith we made up the term, but we call them dead days because people spend so much time pretrial here at the Cook County Jail that once theyre sentenced to prison, theyve already served their term. Stahl they probably spent more time here than the sentence in some of the cases. Smith so, last year alone, we had 1,024 people who spent their entire prison term here in the Cook County Jail, but the more incredible statistic is that same group of people spent an extra 222 years of custody here in the Cook County Jail. Stahl lengths of stay run from a week or less, to eight or nine years. Some of the people who spend years here are the mentally ill, who make up about a third of the population, and are the jails biggest cost. Elli montgomery and do you know what your charge is today . Retail theft. Montgomery retail theft . 70 worth of ground beef. Montgomery 70 worth of ground beef . Stahl every inmate is screened for Mental Illness when they first arrive. I was diagnosed as schizophrenic when i was in group home. Montgomery in a group home . Okay. Were going to make sure that you get help today. If i dont get the medication that i need, i know its gonna go wrong. Stahl this man, who also has a history of Mental Illness, has been in and out of the jail 37 times. Montgomery i understand. Stahl how does that happen . How does someone come back to a jail 37 times . Dart what in gods name do you expect to happen with that person . Okay, so this person has a serious Mental Illness, hes not being treated. His family and him have been disconnected for years. He obviously doesnt have a job. He has nowhere to live. What do you think is going to happen . Ill tell you whats going to happen. He will come in contact with Law Enforcement, either because hes trying to find a place to sleep or hes trying to find something to eat, and hell be back in here. Its not because he walked out of here saying, listen, i want to go and commit horrific crimes. Its like, hes trying to survive. Stahl in many ways, society has turned jails and prisons into Mental Health clinics, and youre actually running one here. Dart yeah. I said, okay, if theyre gonna make it so that i am gonna be the Largest Mental Health provider, were gonna be the best ones. Were going to treat em as a patient while theyre here. Its like, we are gonna think differently. Stahl Cook County Jail was already one of the Largest Mental Health facilities in the country in 2012, when chicago closed down half its Mental Health clinics. These men, the highfunctioning mentally ill, are bused five days a week to a program that is now a model for other jails across the country. They get medication, visits with psychiatrists, and group therapy. Counselor so today, i want us to continue to move forward. And youre going to have to have some things thats going to take you to another level. Stahl about 60 of all the jails Corrections Officers have advanced Mental Health training, and dart has moved new people over to the medical facilities. Dart what i did is redefined job positions and where it wouldve been a Law Enforcement position, i changed it into a doctor position or a Mental Health position. And so, weve been bringin on a lot of doctors, counselors, therapists, and i have stahl are you running a jail . Dart well. I, sometimes i wonder. Stahl nothing exemplifies his new direction more than who he chose to run the jail. Not someone with a Law Enforcement background. He named a psychologist to be the warden 39yearold dr. Nneka jones tapia. Dr. Nneka jones tapia im going to go cell to cell. Who should i talk to . Stahl she started as an intern at Cook County Jail almost ten years ago, and worked her way up. As warden, she tries to infuse more humanity into a pretty heartless place the maximum security wing, where she offers some toughlove therapy. Guard he wouldnt let the officers handcuff him. Dr. Jones tapia why is that . Guard put up a fight. They had to take him to the ground and cuff him. Dr. Jones tapia are you going to keep getting into it with staff . If they keep denyin my rights. Dr. Jones tapia okay, see, you have the wrong attitude. I aint got the wrong attitude. Dr. Jones tapia because im tryin to help you. But youre still tellin me that youre going to have issues with the staff, and i cant have that. So its up to you. Stahl we filmed you doing rounds like a doctor in a hospital, but you talked to every single inmate that you passed. Dr. Jones tapia yes. Its because we understand the person is a person. Theyre not what their charge is, theyre not their crime. And so, we want to give that individual attention to as many people as we can. Sorry, gentlemen. Stahl on a walk through a medium security cell block, she works on attitude adjustment, trying to change their way of thinking so they dont come back here. Dr. Jones tapia and all of you guys with tattoos, you might want to think about having those removed. You need to, cause how are you going to get a job when you get out . Yeah. Dr. Jones tapia i mean, cause First Impression is everything. You cant do that. How many of you guys have kids . Stahl oh, my. Dr. Jones tapia so its not just you thats impacted by you being here its our families. Our families. Dr. Jones tapia but your families, your children. Stahl to reach out to their families, shes listed her phone number on the jails website. Dart and his methods have come under intense criticism. Hes too soft on the inmates, say some of the Corrections Officers. Their antagonism grew into outright hostility last year when dart, intending to be transparent about life behind the walls, released videos to the public showing guards brutally beating up inmates. Dennis andrews, the business agent at teamsters local 700 that represents the Corrections Officers, says his members were furious. Dennis andrews the anger was, he didnt release the videos of the detainees attacking the officers. You cant release a small segment of something happening, without releasing a tape of how you got from point a to point b. Stahl does the public have a right to see those men beating the prisoners . Dart if we arent releasing that information, then it furthers the publics feeling that Law Enforcement is covering things up, and that were hiding things, and we dont have anything to hide. We have good people here, is the majority. But we have some people that dont. And we cant shy from that, because its what poisons the well with the public. Stahl after the criticism, sheriff dart did release videos of inmates attacking staff. But Dennis Andrews says that didnt improve morale. Andrews he doesnt address the situations of his own staff at the jail, who are being attacked daily by detainees. He presumes them innocent, but he doesnt presume his staff innocent. Stahl he presumes his staff guilty . Andrews yes. Stahl it cant be good if they think that youre not on their side . Dart you know, i become puzzled when they think im not on their side. It is the most difficult job. And you start with that, and then youre dealing with mentally ill folks. So theyve been asked to do all sorts of things that they didnt sign up for, and i am outrageously sympathetic to that. Stahl what sheriff dart cant tell us yet is whether recidivism rates are coming down. On any given day, he says he releases roughly 200 people to the streets, but he accepts another 200 some still the old familiar faces. To improve the chances they wont return, again, hes introduced activities like chess lessons. Dart people said, you know, your Chess Program, you know, how is that work i said, you know what . One of the major issues we have with the people here is they dont think about consequences. They just think the very first move. Theyre playing checkers. Chess makes you think four, five, six moves out. I cant tell you how many of the guys in the Chess Program has told me they never thought like that in their life, that their way of thinking has changed. Stahl theres more than chess. Dart has enlisted volunteers to offer all kinds of classes you rarely see in a jail Christopher Jacobs and you can always move in closer if you want. Stahl a photographer teaches inmates how to find new ways to look at the world, and themselves. Musicians provide therapy through rhythm and sound. Chef bruno abate et voila and we gonna put a little rosemary. Stahl italian chef, bruno abate, gives cooking lessons. Chef abate im not here just to make food, im here to change the way you thinking, so you dont come back in this place anymore. We say, you know, we touch the bottom, now we can only go up, right . Stahl what about your Corrections Officers . Do they look at you and say, wait a minute, this is all upside down here. Dart yeah, i mean, theres definitely employees here that are puzzled by me. You know, sheriff goofy is out giving pizza to all the inmates now, cause he loves them. Stahl sheriff goofy . Dart yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I wear it proudly. Stahl people are going to say youre on the wrong side of the street, you know. Dart thats been suggested. Stahl yeah. Dart but, youll never find anybody that is more strident in going after the bad, the evil, the ones that hurt people. I used to prosecute them. I arrest them now, in my sheriffs office, as well. But when it comes to just, blindly, and truly out of indifference, just saying theres segments of our society that we will treat in this horrifically callous way, im not going to be party to that. And if that upsets people, thats fine. This cbs sports update is brought to you by the lincoln motor company. Billee horshell wins the buy ron nelson way par on the first role with jason day three putted in the playoffs. Meanwhile in hockey the pitsberg penguins are one game away from the stanley cup finals after thrashing the senators. In baseball the yankees defeat the rays and now are back on top of the al east. For more sports, news and information go to cbs for more sports, news and information go to cbs sports. Com. Yeah, but maybe you should. laughter standby. Hey katy, let me show you how behind schedule we are. Yeah. Are those the pyrotechnics that are gonna startle me from a distance . Yep. 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Weve been saving a lot of money ever since we switched to progressive. This bar is legit. And now we get an even bigger discount from bundling home and auto. I can get used to this. It might take a minute. Swing and a miss slam dunk touchdown together sports chrit can happen to anyone. S a help is within reach. All you need to do is ask. Vanessa i was a fullblown heroin addict, selling my soul to get high. But i got help, and you can too. James i just know i didnt want to feel that pain anymore. I got help. You can too. Aj most people think addicts are beyond help. When i see an addict, i see hope. Chris christie dont suffer. Dont wait. Call 844 reach nj or visit reachnj. Gov. Williams ai weiwei is chinas most famous political dissident, a provocateur and a troublemaker whose clashes with the Chinese Government have gotten him harassed by police, thrown in jail and driven out of the country. Hes also one of the most successful contemporary artists in the world a designer, sculptor, photographer and blogger whos earned legions of followers by using his art as a weapon to ridicule the authorities. And we should warn you some of his work can be offensive. But when you meet ai weiwei, hes softspoken, self deprecating and shy, the last person youd expect to be an enemy of the state. They thought your intention was to subvert state power. Ai weiwei which is true. Williams which is true. You want to bring down the Chinese Government . Ai weiwei not bring down. I dont think i have the power to bring it down. Williams but you want it to change. Ai weiwei yes. Of course. Williams those are dangerous words in china, where even after decades of modernization, the government has little tolerance for dissent. But thats never bothered ai weiwei. This is the work hes perhaps most famous for. What youre seeing in the background is a portrait of chinas revered former dictator mao zedong, part of a series in which weiwei gives the finger to other symbols of power around the world. Ai weiwei just like this. laughs williams it laughs are, are we creating a new a new ai weiwei as we stand here . Ai weiwei you can see. Its so easy. Everybody can do it. Williams easy. Certainly not subtle, and maybe a little silly. But the chinese authorities took them very seriously. They thought it was subversive. Why was the regime frightened of art . Ai weiwei because theyre afraid of freedom, and art is about freedom. Williams theyre afraid of freedom. Ai weiwei yes. Williams are you an artist, or are you an activist . Ai weiwei i think, artist and activist is the same thing. As artist, you always have to be an activist. Williams you have to be political to be a good artist. Ai weiwei i think every art, if its relevant, is political. Evan osnos thats the purpose of his life. Williams evan osnos is a writer for the new yorker, who spent years in beijing and chronicled ai weiweis confrontations with the authorities. He calls him an entrepreneur of provocation. What does that mean . Osnos it means that no matter what hes doing, hes figuring out a way not to cooperate with the prevailing wisdom or the people in charge. And this can make a lot of people very angry. Williams whats wrong with how things are, to ai weiweis mind . Osnos in china, you are being constantly told that the world today is so much better today than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, when Chinese People were literally starving. That you should be satisfied. And what ai weiwei is saying is, absolutely not. You should demand more. Williams its not good enough to be rich . Osnos exactly. Its not good enough to be rich; you need to be free as well. Williams in 2008, ai weiweis oneman rebellion turned into a war with the Chinese Government, after a massive earthquake shook sichuan province. It killed almost 90,000 people, including several thousand children, many of whom were crushed in poorlybuilt government schools. It was a national trauma, and the authorities tried to put a lid on the publics anger by covering up the number of children who died. It was a state secret how many children had died in these schools . Ai weiwei yeah. They always use that as some kind of, you know, excuse not to give you the correct numbers. Williams weiwei assembled a team of activists to interview the parents, many of whom had lost their only child. He called it a citizens investigation. China had never seen anything like it. So you were trying to get to the truth. Why did that make the Chinese Government so angry . Ai weiwei to control the information, to the limit the truth. Its most efficient tactics for Totalitarian Society for the rulers. Williams he gathered the names of more than 5,000 dead children and published a list on the internet, shaming his government, and across china, people took notice. It was a challenge to the Governments Authority . Osnos and they couldnt accept it. It was an act of radical transparency. Nobody had ever done that before, and they didnt immediately know how to respond. They had never really encountered a person like ai weiwei. Williams what what were they worried that he might do . Osnos inspire people. Inspire people to do and live the way that he did. Williams the chinese authorities responded brutally. Ai weiwei says police beat him up, and he later had to be hospitalized. Doctors discovered bleeding in his brain which he says could have killed him. He documented it all on social media for his followers around the world, infuriating the government and escalating the confrontation. Osnos he weaponized social media. He figured out that in a country in that controls information so carefully, that seizing the tools of information distribution is a very powerful thing to do. Williams what did the Chinese Government think about that . Osnos they began to think he was a very dangerous person. Williams ai weiwei was groomed to be a dissident since childhood. His father, ai qing, was a celebrated poet who was denounced as a traitor and exiled with his family to the edge of chinas gobi desert, where weiwei watched his fathers humiliation as he was forced to clean public toilets. Williams you were an outsider from the beginning. Ai weiwei yes, im a natural outsider. I always been pushed out, and but that also give me very special angle to look at things. Williams it made you an independent thinker. Ai weiwei it made me a individual, and i was always having to make my judgement independently, because the mainstream will never accept somebody like me. Williams weiwei got out of china at the first opportunity, moving to new york in the early 1980s. He was intoxicated by the city, chronicling everything in pictures, drawing inspiration from american masters like andy warhol, and stringing together a living doing odd jobs and street art. So you were drawing portraits of people, and ai weiwei yeah. Williams selling them for how much . Ai weiwei 15, 15. Williams 15 . Some of his work now sells for millions, but in america, he discovered something you cant put a price on. You once said that once youve experienced freedom, it stays in your heart. Williams is that true . Ai weiwei yeah, its true. I think its true. You taste the most important thing in life, and you will never forget it. Yeah. Williams after a decade in the u. S. , he moved back to china and set up a studio in beijing, breaking new ground and challenging old sensibilities with mischievous, provocative art, like this piece, in which weiwei photographed himself destroying a 2000yearold chinese urn. He wants to shatter the communist partys official version of history. Williams you smashed a priceless urn. Ai weiwei its not priceless. Williams for a lot of Chinese People, its its a priceless part of their history. Ai weiwei for me to smash it is a valuable act. Williams if you buy that and the art world certainly did look at what he did to these urns doused in bright paint, or emblazoned with the cocacola logo, paying tribute to his idol, andy warhol. By 2010, new commissions were rolling in, and weiweis work grew more ambitious. Not all of it was political. He cast giant animal heads in bronze and sent them on tour around the world. He hired 1,600 artisans to handcraft porcelain sunflower seeds, then carpeted the floor of a giant atrium in london with 100 million of them. It captivated the public, and helped turn ai weiwei into an art scene superstar. Youre the darling of the art world. Ai weiwei im a darling of art world. I dont really care. Williams you dont care. Ai weiwei no, i dont really care. They can just forget about me. I dont care. Williams but theyre not forgetting about you. Ai weiwei well, thats their problem, you know . laughs they should. They should learn how to forget about me. Williams the Chinese Government wanted everyone to forget about ai weiwei, blocking his name on the internet in china and making it impossible to search for him. But that didnt stop weiwei from needling the authorities relentlessly. When they put his studio under surveillance, weiwei decorated the cameras with lanterns, then fashioned replicas out of marble for his exhibitions. When officers were ordered to follow his every move, he got his own cameraman to film them filming him, ridiculing the state in a way no one else in china had ever dared. Osnos i mean, in a way, people have learned to be, keep your head down. And ai weiwei doesnt. Hes, no, im not gonna keep my head down. Im gonna wave my big head with my beard and my crazy haircut all over the place and youll have to deal with it. Williams he was making the Chinese Government look ridiculous. Osnos yeah. He was mocking it. He was mocking it. And the Chinese Government is many things, but it is not possessed of an abundant sense of humor. And i think, you know, at a certain point, they said, were not going to take it anymore. Williams and they didnt. Early one morning in 2011, as he was about to board a plane, they put a hood over his head and took him away. It was the beginning of 81 harrowing days in solitary confinement, under 24hour surveillance. They watched you shower. They watched you use the toilet. They watched you when you were asleep at night. They were trying to humiliate you. Ai weiwei i think thats the very routine way when they detain somebody they think is very important. Williams were they trying to break your spirit . Ai weiwei i think they dont have to try. Williams did they break you . Ai weiwei somehow, i think. Williams when he was released from detention, his passport was confiscated and he was forbidden from speaking publicly. Ai weiwei i cannot talk, im so sorry. Williams but ai weiwei couldnt help himself. He recreated his prison cell with these threedimensional models, which were exhibited around the world. It helped pile pressure on the Chinese Government, and two years ago, he was finally given his passport back. Within days, he was on a plane out of china, setting up a new studio in berlin. When we visited him, hed shifted his attention to the plight of refugees struggling to reach europe, turning these clothes they discarded into a new work. He told us hes staying in europe for the time being, out of concern for the safety of his young son. But he hasnt ruled out moving back. Ai weiwei has now left china. Doesnt that mean that the Chinese Government has won . Osnos i dont think so. I think im not sure how far we are into the game here. But the game is not over. Williams he might start the fight again with the chinese regime . Osnos laughs i would not be surprised. Any time people have sort of counted him out, theyve been proven wrong. Is ai weiwei a better dissident than an artist . Go to 60minutesovertime. Com. Sponsored by lyrica. Before fibromyalgia, i was a doer. I was active. Then the chronic, widespread pain drained my energy. My doctor said moving more helps ease fibromyalgia pain. She also prescribed lyrica. 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And get realtime notifications that could help save you money. Use cars. Com and save. Wenit gave me a leafput in the names almost right away. First. Within a few days, i went from knowing almost nothing to holy crow, im related to george washington. I didnt know that using ancestry would be so easy. Whitaker now, an update on a story we called shots fired. Last september, in a brief encounter on a street in tulsa, a white police officer, betty shelby, shot and killed an unarmed black man, Terence Crutcher. Most of what happened was caught on police cameras. Officer shelby, while awaiting trial for manslaughter, told us Terence Crutcher wouldnt obey her instructions to stop when she confronted him walking in the road. He put his hands up, but to shelby, crutcher seemed disoriented and possibly on p. C. P. He had abandoned his s. U. V. In the middle of the street, and now seemed intent on getting back to it, where, shelby told us, he began to reach inside, perhaps for a weapon. Betty shelby if i wait to find out if he had a gun or not, i could very well be dead. Theres something that we always say id rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. Whitaker this past week, a tulsa jury of 12 after deliberating for nine hours found officer shelby not guilty of manslaughter in Terence Crutchers death. Im bill whitaker. Stick around. Well be back in a moment with another new edition of 60 minutes