Revenues will come from guess who . The rich. Maybe they need to learn a thing or two from president obama. This is a solvable problem. I do remain optimistic that we can get something done that is good for families. Its exactly one month since the president s resounding reelection, but if you thought the campaign was over, youd be wrong. In the fight over the fiscal cliff, the president is again reaching out to voters for their support. This afternoon a Northern Virginia family got a special visit after sharing their story about how a 2,200 tax increase would hurt them. And for the president , it was a chance to remind the public and congress that without a deal, taxes will go up for everyone at the end of the year. The message that i think we all want to send to members of congress is this is a solvable problem. The senate has already passed a bill that would make sure that middle class taxes do not go up next year by a single dime. Its very important that we get this done now, that we dont wait. With just 26 days before the country goes over the edge, the president and Speaker Boehner spoke last night, both are staying mum about what exactly was said, but the president made clear today that hes not budging on top earners. Just to be clear, i am not going to sign any package that somehow prevents the top rate from going up for folks at the top 2 , but i do remain optimistic that we can get something done that is good for families like this ones and that is good for the American Economy. Indeed. Even some of the top minds in conservative circles are waving the white flag of surrender on tax cuts for the top 2 . So are you saying then for pr purposes, that they should give into obama on the tax rate . Not exactly. Well, yeah, i guess i am. Im sorry, that was not one of the top conservative minds. That was ann coulter, but you have to and it to her. Shes onto something there. A new quinnipiac poll shows 65 of americans support higher taxes on incomes over 250,000. The same survey showing the president s Approval Rating at a threeyear high, 53 . The highest level since the body of Osama Bin Laden was dumped in the north arabian sea. Perhaps thats why Senate Majority leader harry reid felt confident enough to declare that until republicans move on tax rates, more spending cuts are off the table. The president made clear, i have tried to make very clear, until theres some movement in tax rates, were im not talking about any other proposals, not about where there will be a cut here or a cut there. No. As a matter of fact, the only cuts the senate is talking about today are in terms of staff on the republican side. With the surprise news today that senator jim demint after blasting Speaker Boehners Debt Reduction plan will step down from the senate to head a conservative think tank. Quote, ive decided to join the Heritage Foundation at a time when the conservative Movement Needs strong leadership in the battle of ideas. Yes, the strong leadership of lobbyists. Asked by Rush Limbaugh if boehner was forcing him out, demint replied, it might work a little bit the other way. Lets get to our panel. With us from washington is msnbc political analyst david corn, msnbc contributor dr. Jared bernstein, senior fellow at the center on budget and policy priorities and a former economist for Vice President joe biden and also with us is msnbc political analyst karen finney. David, first, senator demint dumps all over boehners job plan, now hes jumping ship altogether. How much of a loss is mr. Demint, a man who once said single mothers who live with their boyfriends should not be allowed to teach in Public Schools . We at mother jones. Com just put up the seven craziest things jim demint has ever said. There was a lot to choose from. Dont ask me why we stopped at seven. Do you have one better than the one i just quoted . That was pretty good. I think thats on the list. Good. Any others . People can just go there. The main thing here is that jim demint has been more an obstacle in the senate than, of course, in the house and i think his departure from there is good news i think for the one remaining moderate republican senator because hes really been quite responsible for choosing and picking and getting behind these Tea Party Republicans like rand paul that have burrowed their way into the senate and made it much harder for anyone to come up with a reasonable deal there or any place else on capitol hill. So if he wants to go make a Million Dollars at the Heritage Foundation, which is i think what the last guy made, it may make things work easier in the senate, but i still think its not going to make a big difference on the negotiations between the white house and john boehner because i dont see much progress there. I think boehner, even though in control of his kau tus, doesnca have a lot of negotiating room because of the tooe party. Do you think mr. Boehner will be glad to see the end of mr. Demint. Im sure he will. I think it represents the weakens of the tea party within congress. Jim demint is a movement conservative. We have certainly not seen nor heard the last of him. He will find other ways to create headaches for both boehner and mcconnell, but i agree with david. Most importantly, it may be a slight relief from the headache for john boehner, but hes still got a big challenge in that he is negotiating at this point with himself and not facing the reality that he doesnt really have a lot of leverage. Indeed. Jared, speaking of the details themselves, Speaker Boehner is saying that his is a serious offer that produces sufficient revenue and savings for the next decade. Youre an economist, does it . Do his numbers really add up . Well, no, they dont add up because they lack any level of specificity that you would need to even write them down and put a plus sign next to them so see if theyd add up. He did the same hang on a second though. He said he stuck 800 billion in revenues on the table. So he did the same maneuver that mitt romney did, and as i have said, thats the kind of thing you might want to do in a president ial campaign. Though interestingly, it didnt work for mitt romney. He said i can raise x billion, he said 800 billion, by closing undisclosed loopholes and tax expenditures, but once you get down to the level of specifics and you say, i want to close the charitable deduction, i want to close the mortgage interest deduction, i want to close the state and local deduction, then you awake a lot of o opponents for whom your loophole is their treasured program. Thats are not scorable, addible numbers at all and the president is correct to say, look, weve got weeks were weeks out from the fiscal cliff. Bring to me a deal we can start negotiating. David, karen was saying earlier she feel that is Speaker Boehner doesnt really have a lot of leverage or room for maneuver. Weve all been focused on the president s assertion that the tax rates for the top 2 are going up but thats not the only thing that the president wants to alive is it . Because he also wants to prevent these periodic fights over the debt ceiling. Hes had enough of that, hasnt he . Well, it sounds like you read the piece i had out today, so thank you for doing that, martin. Talking to people in the white house, the president is very adamant. He has a red line here which is if theres going to be a big deal, and i mean a deal that gets into entitlements, spending cuts, and pearce them off with tax rates, he says that has to include no more hostage taking on the debt ceiling. People remember this from a year and a half ago. The president felt it was an unconstitutional ewe surption of power on behalf of congress by saying you cant pay for the bills that we ourselves accrue with our spending and threaten default unless you do what we want you to do in terms of spending cuts. The president feels this personally. I think hes rather adamant. I dont think its gotten a lot of attention because the focus has been on the tax cut issue, but hes willing and he said so yesterday publicly, hes willing to kill any deal, any big deal, that doesnt let him extend the debt ceiling without going through that rigmarole again. I think a big deal probably will be off the table. We may just be focusing on what can be done about the tax cuts. Jared, why is this debt ceiling fight so detrimental to the overall American Economy . I would actually say global economy. Okay, global. Its because we have significant borrowing from creditors not just here in the United States but across the globe, and if Congress Plays this game of chicken with the debt ceiling, we are literally threatening to default. That is we are saying were going to prohibit the congress from going out into credit markets and borrowing what it needs to pay its creditors for spending as david correctly pointed out and as krystal ball brilliantly summarized, spending that has already occurred. Now, will you lend money to any debtor who just defaulted on their debt . I mean, its unthinkable. Interest rates would go through the roof. Wed jam the economy into a devastating recession. I mean, david said it well in his piece this morning. If you think the fiscal cliff is a problem, this kind of hostage taking around the debt ceiling is multiples of that and the president is, i think, very correct to stand extremely firm and be extremely clear that hes not going to play that game. Karen, the politics of this are frightening for the republicans. The latest polling does not support their stance. And given that they spent four years obstructing this president and failed, why do it again from the outset of his second term . Well, you know, theres good news for the republicans, martin. Karl roves group, crossroads gps is going to spend some money for some ads, and we know thats a successful strategy in convincing the american people. Thats good news. I cant pass that chance up to do that. I understand. I think part of whats so important about the polling, we talked about this on monday and the quinnipiac polling you were showing, the republicans have had time to make their arguments and its not working. More people are moving towards siding with the president. They believe its the president and democrats who are making a legitimate effort. The private has been privately and i think publicly very clear from the beginning that hes no longer going to engage in this debt ceiling hostage taking. Again, i think we mostly were focused on the top 2 piece, but hes been very clear, and i thought yesterday he was brilliantly clear with the business round table by talking about what games he was simply not going to engage in. Karen, theres one point the reason hes talking to the business round table about that is because they have a real vested interest thats right. In precisely this kind of hostage situation not occurring. But politically speaking i think one of the things thats brilliant that the white house is doing is were talking about the mcconnell provision as a way to get around the debt ceiling. So using it against them. This is a mechanism that Mitch Mcconnell himself came up with last time to kind of get us out of this. So now, you know, you have had geithner talking about it, the white house talking about it, lets adopt the mcconnell provision. Again, the republicans politically are becoming further and further isolated and seeming to be more and more like petulant children. David, you can speak but i dont want you to promote your magazine or anything you have written. Ill promote the show. Okay. But the republicans, especially the Tea Party Republicans, are going to get trapped in a corner. A lot of them are already saying if we give on the tax cuts, then we want to have a fight on the debt ceiling. We want to do something. And so you asked before, martin, why will they take this even though Public Opinion seems poised against them, even though the president is organizing the business round table against them. I go back to the old story of the frog and the scorpion. If you dont know it, wikipedia it. Its this their nature. Now hes plugging for wikipedia. Karen, jared, david, thank you all so much. Next, the Empire Strikes back. Why the Koch Brothers matter even more in america. This vote in the senate, it was bipartisan in support, they needed 66 votes, and it failed. Its a christmas miracle no rights for disabled foreigners. Suck on that figgy pudding, tiny tim. You and the rest of the great britains crutch crowd can eat your goose on the stairs. [ female announcer ] Research Suggests cell health plays a key role throughout our lives. One a day womens 50 is a complete multivitamin designed for Womens Health concerns as we age. It has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. One a day 50 . Stop stop stop come back here humans we are beautifully imperfect creatures living in an imperfect world. Thats why Liberty Mutual insurance has your back with great ideas like our optional better car replacement. If your car is totaled, we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. Call. And ask one of our Insurance Experts about it today. Hello . we believe our customers do their best out there in the world, and we do everything we can to be there for them when they need us. [car alarm blaring] call now and also ask about our 24 7 support and service. Call. And lock in your rate for 12 months today. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . Neural speeds increasing to 4g lte. Brain upgrading to a quadcore processor. Predictive intelligence with google now complete. Introducing droid dna by htc. Its not an upgrade to your phone. Its an upgrade to yourself. Cut the hell out of spending and balance the budget and reduce regulations and support business. That was david koch, one half of the Koch Brothers, whom Forbes Magazine describe as among the 50 most powerful people on the planet. That interview was recorded two years ago, so we have to assume that neither brother is entirely happy that his preferred party is about to cave on taxes. However, forbes is out with a lengthy cover story, an interview with he and his brother, charls, which suggests that the Koch Brothers didnt get where they are today by backing down. Joining us is the editor of r forbes. In the piece it says charles used to give his children sunday afternoon economics lectures. What do you think the lecture will be now that it appears Speaker Boehner and others may be forced to accept a tax hike on the rich . Well, charles, when he lectured his children, he fancied himself more of a sucratic lecturer. If you look at the Koch Brothers, they are playing a game thats not measured in days or weeks or months or election cycles. Theyre playing a multidecade game. Whatever is happening this week with the fiscal cliff, its just one little blip in a multidecade goal to reshape how america looks politically, business. They are very philosophically focused and very, very disciplined, and very, very wealthy. The piece is to mark his 77th birthday, so he has been at it for some time. Here is another interesting passage from your article. Charles many critics owe on the left, including the president of the United States, accuse him of accumulating too much power and using it to promote his own economic interests through a network of secretive organizations they call the kochtopus. What is it and how far does it stretch . On the left the idea is that they are funding many if not most, certainly many, of the leading right wing think tanks. If you think about it, this is how they play the game. Theyre talking about longterm investments. A lot of people are focused on how much money was spent by super pacs and donors in this election cycle. What the kochs have always done is said were going to look at this and say how can we lay the seeds . They know their message, this individualist kind of very, you know, based on the ideas of these are kind of deep economic thoughts, are not going to be the kind of thing youre going to pass in a populist kind of way, so they have to change the debate over time. Thats why they fund think tankings. So its kind of what the super pac idea it really isnt where their action is. They are playing a long game and if you look at what they have done with Koch Industries where charles koch took it over in 1967 when it was worth, i dont know, 10 million, 20 million, somewhere in that neighborhood. Both kochs are closing in on 100 billion, each of them are worth 31 billion. So you dont get that kind of wealth and its a private company, so they didnt get some bang from being public. They slowly built, theyre disciplined. The story goes into great detail on how they built their business and how that can then be applied to how they think politically. I am assuming randall, final question, that notwithstanding the fact that mitt romney was emphatically defeated, they are looking forward to 2014 and 2016. They are looking forward to 2040. David said in our story, we are going to do this until we stop breathing, until our last breath. Everyone who thought, 2012, they put a lot of money in, theyre going to go away. David koch said were not going to play dead. They arent going anywhere. Intonations of immortality. Randall lane, thank you so much. Stay with us. Music is a universal language. But when i was in an accident. I was worried the Health Care System spoke a language all its own with unitedhealthcare, i got help that fit my life. Information on my phone. Connection to doctors who get where im from. And tools to estimate what my care may cost. So i never missed a beat. Were more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. Thats health in numbers. Unitedhealthcare. I just finished a bowl of your new