Prolife moniker for something else. Senator todd young of indiana summarize the meeting as being focused on, quote, pro baby policies. When all when all in starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. There have been major breaking developments tonight out of georgia. Tonight a federal judge in atlanta rejected mark meadows a chance to move his r. I. C. O. Conspiracy georgia case to federal court. The criminal defendant and former Trump White HouseChief Of Staff was the first one to try this move, to move his case out of Fulton County to washington, d. C. Now the same prosecutors remain on the case, but he would get a new jury pool, probably be more likely to draw from areas that donald trump won, and also a new judge. The argument he was making was that he was acting under federal law is a federal officer in the trump administration. That would qualify him for being tried in federal court. Meadows saw such an upside to moving his case to federal court that what he did shot legal experts. He took the Witness Stand himself last week to make his case. That was a gamble. Usually dont want to do that with your client. Granting him or criminal exposure. In the end it appears as of now the gamble did not pay off. Federal job steve jones rejected the Argument Meadows and his attorneys made. He wrote in his ruling released less than two hours ago, that, quote, the court finds that the color of the office of the white house Chief Of Staff does not include working with or working for the trump campaign. Even if meadows took on tasks that mirror the duties that he carried out when acting in his official role as white house Chief Of Staff, he has failed to demonstrate how the election really related activities that serves the basis for the charges in the indictment are relating to any of his official acts. This attempt by meadows, again, to remove the case into federal court, was also seen is a test case for the other 18 defendants in fani williss sprawling r. I. C. O. Indictment. Again, the upside for them, i mean, its going to be tried under georgia law, and the upside for them is there might be a more favorable jury pool. One of those defendants, that guy there, he is one of them, donald j trump, yesterday trump filed a notice that he may move or try to move his case to federal court. Reports that he was watching to see how the meadows case played out to make a decision. So much for that plan, at least for now. That said, im sure mark meadows will appeal tonights decision, putting that aside, this is a huge legal victory for fani willis. Its really one of the first victories. Willis is juggling this extraordinarily complex case in which she had another victory this week went two other defendants in trump cool waters failed to get their cases severed from each other. The judge, that would be a Georgia Criminal Court judge, rejected their arguments and now they are looking to go to trial next month, october 23rd. Meadows, on the other hand, possibly still could get his chance to be in federal court in fact a lot of them might. Special counsel jack smith in his federal case is famously not charged any of the coconspirators yet. Mark meadows is not one of the unnamed coconspirators, but hes in the thick of all of this. And we learned today, and this is really something, if only willis, for all her tenacity and aggressiveness in pursuing this case, all the insults and criticisms she has faced from people but support donald trump, that fani willis was actually a vision of restraint in terms of the people she could have indicted. And thats because today a judge in Fulton County released that Special Grand Jury report that the Special Grand Jury panel delivered to fani willis in january. Remember, it was a body of citizens who didnt have the power to return indictments. They were empaneled. In a kind of investigatory fashion. They had subpoena power. Their final work product is this 28page report, the District Attorney reviewed in making her final charting decisions. Ultimately fani willis indicted 19 defendants, including the ex president , in what prosecutors say was an organ orchestrated Criminal Enterprise to steal the election. Those are the folks you see there on your screen. But fani willis did not indict 21 people that the grand jury recommended charges against. Several of those beamed are fake electors. But the list of names, again, the grand jury just sort of average citizens, grafted into this process, heard testimony, went through, it came up with what they thought should happen. A list of names is truly astounding. It basically includes a whos who of trumps inner circle. So listen kloots current sitting republican South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham, former republican georgia senator david perdue and kelly loeffler. They were in power during the election and in the effort to overturn. It National Security advisor for dame front for a few weeks, michael flynn, tamp trump aide boris epshteyn, georgia Lieutenant Governor bert jones, and trump clue lawyer cleta mitchell. Again, not some random fringe people or some bizarre extreme assemblers. Some of these guys before they were Conspiracy Theorists they were a respected established people in the republican party. A few of them still are. A Special Grand Jury recommended that they be charged for their efforts, quote, with respect to the National Effort to overturn the 2020 president ial election, focused on efforts in georgia, arizona, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and the district of columbia. Republican senator Lindsey Graham actually testified before that grand jury last year, before this group of citizens, even though he fought tooth and nail, take the case all the way up to the supreme court, he lost. Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger so green called him twice in the aftermath of the 2020 election and suggested that Raffensperger Throw OutAbsentee Ballots. To put a fine point on, and heres clark cunningham, Georgia StateUniversity Law of ethics. Hear how he puts the testimony on nbc earlier today. He testified in front of the Special Grand Jury when he came out he said he answered all the questions he was asked. This suggests he did not take the fifth. A Special Grand Jury listened to him, testifying under oath and then decided he was criminal. Listened to him testify and decided he was criminal. A majority of jury of his peers decided what he did was criminal. Senator Lindsey Graham defended his actions earlier this afternoon. This is troubling for the country. We cant criminalize senators are doing their job when they have a constitutional requirement to fulfill. It would be irresponsible for me, in my opinion, as chairman of the committee, not to try to find out what happened. It would be irresponsible for me to tell the voters of South Carolina what i did without actually trying to find out with the right answer was. So were opening up pandoras box here. At the end of the day, nothing happened. What i did was consistent with my job as being United States senator, chairman of the judiciary committee. I think the system in this country is getting off the rails, and we have to be careful not to use the legal system as a political tool. Yes. Careful not to use the legal system as a political tool, which is why he has endorsed donald trump for president. Graham is saying all the same things trump is saying, just for the just in a gentlemanly southern drawl. Im a senator, im allowed to do this. The Justice System is being politicized. And again, there is a defense for grahams actions. Sort of more so than some of these other folks. But i will just say, the Special Grand Jury thought those phone calls to raffensperger were illegal. And while not yet gone to trial in this case against the ex president , as steve staff, the whole going in the special counsels case, when this was happening in realtime, as we learned about the events, ive got to, say it sure as heck seemed unlawful. It didnt seem like they were doing normal politics. It didnt seem like Lindsey Graham and these folks were making calls, trying to get to the bottom of it. It seemed wrong, downright criminal. A Special Grand Jury in georgia agreed. Andrew weissmanns formerly prosecutor, special counsel office, now the cohost of the prosecuting donald trump podcast. Lisa reuben is a former litigator and a legal analyst. Good to have you here. Lets start on the people that were not indicted. Andrew i will start with you. What do you make of it . Not to put cold water on this but i do think its important to i got no stake in this. Good. This is so unusual because in the federal system you would never learn this. If there is a put up or shut up rule, meaning that you are either charged or not charged, for the same reason, when Jim Comey Denigrated hillary clinton, you dont get to say were not charging someone, but let me tell you how bad they are. Right. For the people who are not being charged, this is just an unusual situation, to be able to say, here are these people the grand jury considered. It is also worth noting, that means that the grand jury determined by probable cause. That is this. It doesnt mean you have a case. And very often, if youre a prosecutor, the grand jury might be able to say yes, this is probable cause, but you are thinking, i need to be able to prove this Beyond A Reasonable Doubt to a trial jury. With these people, yes, it is newsworthy that there are many grand showers who found that of these people, by probable cause did this, but there may be very good reasons that fani willis is saying no way, it doesnt reach the requisite standard for criminal conviction. I dont want to imply otherwise. Im not saying how did united ate these people . I think what you say also about the reputational matters, the put up four or shut up would rules, its a good rule. Theres a lot of litigation out of over whether this report was gonna come out. Basically it was the press who sued to get it out. Theres a Public Interest in this. What i find interested, in a social logical level, is thinking about those folks that were in that grand jury, and thinking they are watching this testimony. Absolutely. Unlike me, watching this whole thing played out, before the election, during the election, after the election, january six. It really seems wrong that they had the same determination in almost a folk sense, whether or not theres a prosecutable case there. I think thats right. Again, to go back to your point about it being a folk sense, there are people on this list that fani willis and her team may have determined were just not not only not worth indicting but people whom they could not indict. Mike flynn comes to mind, for me. We know that on december 18th, 2020, mike flynn and Sidney Powell and Patrick Byrne and others gathered in the oval office and talked about the seizure of Voting Machines and tried to persuade the president to enact an Executive Order that would allow just that. Whether that has a nexus to the state of georgia to justify prosecution, is a completely different matter. So he may have joined a conspiracy to overturn the election. Did he join a conspiracy to overlook overturn the election in georgia itself, it wouldve been something that would give fani willis pause. Shes got a lot of with the 19. Whos already what shes undertaking is the most huge, probably the most ambitious State Criminal Case ever brought. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, in terms of the broader social historical ramifications. Not in legal terms. Im sure there are more complex ones. In that respect you can understand. I want to talk about, i want to pivot to the meadows ruling today. Again, this is something, there are things i feel strongly about and things i dont. Whether he should be in federal georgia or state court, i feel is in the latter category. What do you think . Let me tell you why you should care just give me an opinion. More than simply the jury pool would change, there would be no cameras in the courtroom, so that is a real reason youd want to move. But heres a reason the second part of the equation of moving into federal court was then getting federal immunity. So its not necessarily like the night follows the day, but its close. Unnecessary predicate for the pursuing immunity. This is something the market to be able to satisfy for federal immunity because this was something part of the campaign not part of their office. So that is The Big Picture of whats happening behind the scenes. I think the thing that i have a strong opinion about is, the question that was before the court. In terms of where hands up, the question before the court is, was what you were doing in your official capacity . Im gonna read from the ruling, lisa, and i want your response. As a substance of the overt acts, constituted a significant part of Meadows Testimony and proof of his acting within the scope of his federal office. Gore concludes the based on the factual evidence meadows was not acting in the scope of his office for purposes of federal officer remover. No, he wasnt. We were talking about this earlier. In some respects this legal result that took him 49 pages to get to, strikes all three of us in our non lawyer capacities as intuitive and obvious. What he was trying to do here was overturn the results of an election. I dont care how broadly you define the scope of the Chief Of Staffs role, it doesnt involve usurping the role of states in administering elections or political activity forbidden by the hatch act. Its not like a Hurricane Hit Savannah and president tells his Chief Of Staff staff, get down there right now, thats not whats happening. Even if he said i want your eyes on, and i want your eyes on the Signature Audit is going on in cobb county right now, on december 22nd, 2020. That doesnt justify his invading the province of the state and running its own election. Theres a whole discussion here about federalism that i know andrew and i both thought was really important. It sort of turns the federalist principles that the right has been advocating for on their head. Do we think this has implications for trump, in terms of the georgia case . The court goes out of its way to say im just deciding this case and it will not have an effect as of yet on the other cases, meaning he is protecting his record, saying im going to let everyone else have their day in court. But of course it will. Because hes laying down the view of the law thats going to apply, thats not going to change. And even with respect to the facts, obviously, each person has different facts, but if youre donald trump, or, frankly, any of the other defendants looking at this, this is a terrible ruling for. Away we should say that meadows had just got word that he has appealed and i imagine this is the kind of thing that could find itself before the supreme court. It could, but to lisas point, at The Big Picture, which i thought the judge was brilliant on, was saying the Removal Statute is there because you are trying to prevent State Interference with federal action, and he says this is the exact opposite of that. This is federal interference with the state. Andra weisman and lisa rubin, take you for being here. You dont have data all weekend yet. If we nominate trump, will get destroyed and will deserve it. Linda how Lindsey Graham went from Donald Trumps biggest critic to nearly in avoiding an indictment, next. Indictment, next my names dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. My wife magda and i have been married for 39 years. About three or four years ago, i wasnt feeling as if i was as sharp as i used to be. I wanted to try something that was overthecounter. I saw the prevagen commercials. After a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference that im remembering this, im remembering that. 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