Thinking isnt a guns situation. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. One week after we learned Robert Mueller had brought indictments against two top trump officials, announced a guilty plea for a third, all eyes on a former highranking official in the Trump Administration itself, Michael Flynn. A man who spent 24 days in the white house as the president S National Security adviser. Nbc news exclusively reporting that shmueler now has enough evidence to file charges in the investigation into flynn and his son Michael Flynn jr. , according to multiple sources familiar with muellers investigation. To be clear nbc news is not reporting who might be charged, only that there is sufficient evidence to file charges in that investigation. Three sources tell nbc news that investigators plan to soon speak with multiple witnesses to gather more information about flynns lobbying work, including whether he laundered money or lied to federal agents about his
overseas contacts. That news comes as the two former Trump Campaign aides facing indictments that would be Paul Manafort and his deputy rick gates were back in court today. The federal judge ruling they must remain under house arrest with her movements tracked by gps as they continue to negotiate a possible bail package. The president weighed in on manafort in combination with sinclair broadcast group. The reputation i felt was good. I had him for a short period of time. He was only in there for a finite period of time. But, you know, i feel badly for him. I always found him to be a really nice person. Were mueller to file an Obstruction Of Justice charge against the president , it would likely be flynn at the center of it. Former fbi director james comey says the president pressured him to drop the investigation Into Flynn Over flynns conversations with the Russian Ambassador during the president ial transition. Remember, flynn denied discussing u. S. Sanctions against russia with the ambassador during several
exchanges, including, according to the Washington Post, during an interview with the fbi. But intercepted communications reportedly contradicted flynns account. Now comey says he refused to drop the flynn investigation. Shortly afterwards, trump fired him. Which led to mueller being named special counsel. Do you think he would ever consider trying to have mueller removed . Or have you pledged to just stay out of that . Well, i hope he is treating everything fairly. And if he is, im going to be very happy. Because when you talk about innocent, im truly not involved in any form of collusion with russia, believe me. After the president ial Campaign Last year was over, flynn, just like the now indicted Paul Manafort, retroactively went on to register as a Foreign Agent. During a period when he was attending secret Intelligence Briefings with then candidate trump, flynn was being paid more than half a Million Dollars to lobby on behalf of the Turkish Government. Even had the audacity to write a pro Turkish Government oped in
which he called Recep Tayyip Erdogan chief antagonist, a Muslim Cleric Living In Exile in pennsylvania who erdogan blames for last years failed coup. A senior Law Enforcement official tells nbc newss ken dilanian that in the weeks after trump was inaugurated, they were asked to extradite guillen. Its not clear whether the request came from flynn. Im joined by the National Security reporter who has been doing some amazing report thong story. Lets start with that we learn head got half a Million Dollars to represent turkish interests through an intermediary. Do you actually think about expediting Fethullah Gulen which is a key goal of erdogan. What do you know of this extradition that would have happened after flynn was actually in the u. S. Government . Just the very, very basics, chris, just what we said in the story, which is that the fbi was asked during the Trump Administration while mike flynn was the National Securityadviser to take another look at this. And they had no reason to reexamine it because they had already looked at it during the Obama Administration and had no evidence to fulfill turkeys Extradition Request for Fethullah Gulen who lives in the poconos and is like Public Enemy Number One for turkey. Mike flynn at one point in the wake of the turkish coup actually gave a Public Statement saying the turkish coup could be a good thing. And then he completely 180 changed when he began being paid on behalf we now know by the government of turkey. And he published that oped on election day, which basically had Turkish Government talking points. It wasnt even disguised. A lot of people look at that and said obviously mike flynn didnt think he us going to win the election. Because why would he publish that on election day . Thats one of the really important things about this story is we are now saying that mike flynns conduct aS National Security adviser is under scrutiny by Robert Mueller in connection with this gulen
arrangement. Be a little clear there and then well move on to the reporting about sufficient evidence. Because to impact that the key there is this is an unregistered Foreign Agent that is established to represent turkish interests writes a oped. And there is some question about whether that overlapped while he was in the white house. We dont know. Im not saying thats the case. But it seems to me that thats a Road Investigators are looking at. That is absolutely at issue according to our sources is what official acts mike flynn took that seemed to align with his financial interests in terms of orchestrating the extradition of gulen to turkey. Which, i should noted a big deal. And as law professor Steve Vladeck pointed out, if the case were to be proven a felony. Lets talk about the idea sufficient charges in the flynn investigation. Explain that reporting a little bit for us. Yeah, chris. And were not trying to be cute here. Obviously both of these men, mike flynn, the former National Security investigators and his son appear to be in serious
criminal jeopardy. We just dont have the precision of sourcing. Were not saying charges are eminent against both men. What were saying is mueller has the evidence sufficient to file charges. Charges could come. Charges may not come if they are negotiating a cooperation arrangement. Right. If they reach a deal to cooperate, we may not see charges, chris. All right. Ken dilanian, thanks for being with me. Former federal prosecutor renato mariotti, a frequent guest on the show. Lets talk about flynn jr. And the behavior of flynn and flynn jr. This is flynn jr. Who was its not just that he is his fathers shoefnlt was a partner in their business enterprise. He was his adviser. He was originally going to be brought in to get Security Clearance as a staffer to his father, National Security adviser. Him this morning, flynn jr. , the sjw route, the disappointment on your faces when i Dont Go To Jail will be worth all your harassment. I believe that was yesterday. He also retweeted something accusing Robert Mueller of having conspired with hamas. What do you make of this as behavior from someone currently under investigation with possible criminal exposure . Its unbelievable. Its something i have not seen before in my experience as federal prosecutor. Not only in my cases, but observing other cases. Typically when people are facing a federal indictment, theyre crapping their pants so to speak. Theyre very concerned. It is a big deal. Its a scary thing. Usually you are not trying to upset the prosecutor. Youre usually trying to see if you can convince them not to indict. So this sort of thumbing your nose at the prosecution, it tells me that either these people are extremely foolish or they are angling for a pardon in some way. Or maybe they think theyre totally innocent, and the government has nothing on them. You know, thats really hard to believe. Im sorry. I dont really believe that. I think that, you know, theyve got smart lawyers. Michael flynn seems like to me hes had a very intelligent
lawyer, i mean, the father does. I think that theyre very soberly explaining this to their client. If not, theyre not doing their jobs. Mueller and his team have amassed significant evidence. If this reporting is accurate, which i presume it is with all the sourcing, theyre telling people either flynn or these lobbyists that theyre potentially trying to get to cooperate, that they essentially have the goods on flynn. Theyre going to be pursuing indictments. We should note, it jumped out to me that there are two things that reporting indicates flynn has done, which is lie to federal investigators when they asked him when the fick first questioned him about the conversations he had with kislyak about sanctions. And also Didnt Register as a Foreign Agent. Right. Both of which are, you know thats what George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying, and not registering as a Foreign Agent is one of the things that manafort is being indicted for. And the second one, not registering as a Foreign Agent is a very straight forward thing for a prosecutor to prove. Thats the sort of charge
prosecutors love. Because either you register order you didnt. Its the sort of thing, maybe there is some way in which flynn could say i wasnt really a Foreign Agent. But if thats something that mueller can prove. When you go and retroactively register, it hurts your case. Either you did or you didnt. Things that require intent or the intent to defraud, that can be complicated or corrupt intent weve talked about on the show before. Something like this is a fairly straight forward thing. How does mike flynn intend to beat that charge . Its hard to see. One of the dynamics that is at issue here is the idea of pardons. Because the person at the center of this is the president of the United States who has this incredible power under the article 2 of the constitution to pardon. Federal crimes. And the signals being sent back and forth, i want you to listen to what he said about manafort and get your reaction to it in this most recent interview. Take a listen. What was it that convinced you he had to be let go . Well, i think we found out something about he may be
involved with certain nations. And i dont even know exactly what it was in particular. But there was a point at which we just felt paul would be better off. Because we dont want to have any potential conflicts. And if there was a conflict, i dont want to be involved any conflicts, even though it was i could have kept him longer, i dont think anybody would have complained. But we dont want to have any potential conflicts of interest at all. No potential conflicts of interest. Its kind of weird, right . Its not at all what weve seen from this president so far. We had the head of the ethics walter shaub leave because he was so concerned about the conflicts in the administration there doesnt seem to be much interest in clearing that up. In fact i think his assets have not yet been moved to really a blind trust like they should be. So thats hard to believe. You know, i think a lot of the things were hearing from the president right now are hard to believe. He has been going around saying he is not under investigation. Which anybody with two eyes can see that he is. I mean, if his lawyers are telling him that he is not under investigation, theyre
committing malpractice. One thing i would just remind people of, the original sin here that started all this was that phone call between flynn and the ambassador that they lied about. If they hadnt that got the ball rolling. So there is something at the beginning of this, its useful to come back to remember where flynn was. Renato mariotti, its great to have you here in new york city tonight. Thank you very much. Joining me now conservative Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin and independent president ial candidate evan mcmullin. And jennifer, its striking to me that the american First Campaign appears to have had a number of high level officials who were essentially secret Foreign Agents. Yeah. Its very peculiar. And most of them are connected to russia, which is even more peculiar. You know, if you talk to people who have been on president ial campaigns democrats, republicans, they have never seen anything like this. There werent people communicating with the russian government during the bush campaigns or during any other campaign. And then you have on top of that
the financial web that entails jared kushner, Entails Trumps son, Entails Trump himself. Now we learn that wilbur mills has a connection. So its a lot of coincidences, if thats what it is. But weve never, i would suggest, had either a campaign or certainly an administration that was this intertwined with a hostile power after an election in which that hostile power intervened on their behalf. And that just stinks to high heaven. Well, and that that pertains to russia, which is sort of true to the bulk. But evan, one of the things that is interesting to me here, because i think it sets a it gives you a sense of the general atmosphere around this campaign is the turkey part of it, right . There is no reason to believe that turkey did anything like russia did in the campaign and intervened. But here youve got a guy who is one of the senior advisers to the president ial candidate of one of the major parties. And on election day, he is using that opportunity to write an oped on behalf of essentially
his foreign client. Its hard to conceive of that in another president ial campaign setting, or am i wrong . No, youre absolutely right, chris. What you have here is an example of how much leadership really matters, both good and bad. And when you have a president ial candidate who sets the tone in the way President Trump did, not releasing his tax returns, encouraging russia to interfere in our elections, then the signal is received by especially his team. And indeed it was. And not only, by the way, that signal received by his team, its also received by interlocutors around the world, foreign governments, especially authoritarian or dictatorships that people are for sale in washington, at least in that campaign and potentially in the administration in the case that President Trump won, which he of course did. So its a signal that goes out far and wide. And it sells out country out, our integrity, our interests. Most importantly, the
sovereignty of the American People to choose their own leaders and have them serve in their interests and their interests alone and have them be accountable to them, the people. Thats what is for sale now under this administration. Not only, that jennifer, i am reminded of the fact that a Central Campaign theme was that Hillary Clinton was essentially a Foreign Agent, that she essentially had outsourced american interests to whoever had given cash to the Clinton Foundation or Something Like that. And meanwhile weve got Paul Manafort. These are guys who are at the very, very top of this campaign, which was Small Campaign and not that many people. Youve got two people at the very top who are functioning literally cashing checks on behalf of representing the interests of foreign governments. And that tells us a few things. First of all, it reminds us that they had no competent people on that campaign, and very few people in the administration. Because he was toxic. Most of the Foreign Policy professionals on the right or the center right really were writing letters, correctly as it turns out, saying he is unfit to
serve. So he didnt have quality people. Second problem you had is apparently no one was vetd. It was wellknown that Paul Manafort represented all kinds of horrible people, dictators, authoritarians, thugs. So did trump not know than . Was there any vetting process . And third, there is a question as to how much they knew about flynn during the transition period. Yep. Were they told . Did they know . Did they not know . Who exactly was told . And that also involves the Vi