Chris Hayes discusses the day's top news. sam nunberg's public meltdown after receiving a subpoena in march. he was implicit. he did not want to incriminate his mentor. >> roger stone is like my father. i am not going to go in there for them to set up a case against roger. >> after all that nunberg did testify with the grand jury. >> ultimately, mueller wants to indict roger. i think this indictment, he is going to have a sexy charge, conspiracy to defraud. my opinion as i said to you, roger conspired against himself and not the russians. >> mueller's team has continued to subpoena witnesses linked to stone. kristin davis appeared before the grand jury just this afternoon. stone associate randy. stone is the vivid mentioned. quote on or about august 15 the conspirators posing as guccifer 2 .0. there is other evidence that stone could have colluded with agents including his own claim of having been in touch with wikileaks. >> in regard to the october surprise, what is your point on that. and every reason to expect the d.c. circuit to affirm her on that. and this is at the end of the day, a lot of stern and drang with an order for him to appear before the grand jury. >> who is andrew miller and what is his role in the stone operation? >> well, sort of like nunberg and michael kaputo before him, started as a driver. he worked on a lot of campaigns with him including being a campaign manager for kristin davis' run. so you know he has basically been roger's body man and his right hand for about over ten years. >> so close to him. like a very close associate. subpoenas, it is a good sign that prosecutors are interested in you. particularly if they mention you specifically in an indictment with having been in contact with a foreign intelligence operation posing as a romanian hacker. >> it is a good rule of thumb. >> it is a good rule of them, and you know, i think, you know, one way or another, they are looking at something serious about roger stone and that seems to be coming to a head. so they are using this collaterally to attack the investigation itself. >> you know, stone has said that he knows he is going it be or he thinks he is going to be indicted and he is preparing for it. he has had a falling out with nunberg, how do you think he is preparing himself for this? >> well, he certainly doesn't seem worried but that is kind of within his m.o. but i mean, they are certainly closing in on him even with kristin davis testifying to the grand jury shortly after she was interviewed by mueller, i think, you know, clear indication that they are looking to bring charges against him and similar to manafort, might be unrelated to russian hacking or collusion. and it could be something in his past and that is what andrew miller might know about. >> davis and he are quite close. >> sure. >> was she around when you were filming the film? >> the film before the film if you will, we followed her before her run when she was running against eliot spitzer. the campaign fizzled out because she got ensnared? the fbi sting and was arrested for selling prescription drugs. and she didn't get out of prison until may of 2016. so her knowledge for working for roger. whereas andrew miller was brought back into the fold around the time of the rnc, with roger in cleveland and working for him the months after that are in question >> ben, one thing that is striking is you have mueller having referred some cases. a number of folks that work in d.c. that aren't paul manafort to u.s. attorneys. referred out the michael cohen matter. this has not referred out. >> that is right and the reason for that is pretty clear which is if you look at the gru, the hacking indictment, the link to roger stone is the collusion stuff. and the heart of the mueller investigation is the question of coordination between the russian >> for more in the legal jeopardy. joined by mimi rocah. broad you are assault on the mueller investigation. here is what he had to say. >> in order to appeal, judge howell's decision, challenging, have to have a contempt order. this is a major precedent set in the case. serious constitutional issues on the appointment clause. >> they already tried once with the district court. they tried to say, filed saying he is not improperly appointed. now they are trying to escalate. >> i think twice actually, i believe judge ellis. every reason to think on appeal they are going to get the ruling by the judge will be affirmed. but you know, as ben said, this is the way to challenge it if they want to get it up on appeal. and you know, it is risky in the sense that if they lose that, he has to then either go to the grand jury or go to jail. they don't have to, but the judge has every right to do that. i had many cases in the district court where i was involved in usually organized crime cases where they didn't want to go to the grand jury because it is against their religion i guess. and they were put in jail. and you could be put in jail until you agree to testify or you know, i think there is a maximum of two years that you ar loued to be in jail. >> he says i don't know anything about collusion or obstruction, i don't know why they want to talk to me. but at the same time he says but if i do get forced to testify, i am going to take the fifth. this is kind of hail mary pass. chris, on the off chance that this is successful, the whole mueller investigation is done. it is a wrap. this isn't only about roger miller, this is about whether mueller has the constitutional authority to do this investigation. >> that's a great point. the argument they are making is an existential assault on mueller's authority. saying it is violation of the constitutional appointment clause to create this body. it is violation of the constitution. and it would probably go to the supreme court. it would get rid of the whole thing >> yes. it could be the straw that stroke the camel's back or one of those saying. bad for the mueller investigation. but again, we can go down that road. >> you think it is unlikely. >> unlikely given this statute was written with concerns in mind about the watergate special counsel. so things written it like the main one being he has to report to the deputy attorney general. and so i think that you know, as the judge said in this case, these are good questions to raise, but no. >> right. >> and i think that is where we are with this. >> i want to ask you about a surreal moment that happened today. sean hannity has a radio show. and the president's attorneys took it over. >> flynn is the example. no crime. if it had been said, the president said go easy on him. >> which the president says -- >> he didn't say stop it, don't do it. so no crime. however, it didn't take place according it the president. according to comey, it did. >> of course if it did, it wouldn't have mattered. but you are right. two recollection of a meeting. >> have you ever in your life seen something like this? >> no. this is stunning. this act of what they did. they took over a radio show to make arguments on behalf of their client. >> they took calls. >> i think giuliani has been skirting the line and in my opinion, has now gone over the line of violating the rules of professional conduct as a lawyer. and i don't know the exact process of who or where that complaint gets filed. but i wouldn't be surprised if somebody did. >> chris, these guys -- >> i was going to say. >> this is a different proceeding. there is a trial going on now and going to be others and that is clearly what they are doing, poison the well of the american public jury pool. >> and these guys, they don't need to be on tv. they need to be preparing him for whatever eventuality. he is running scared and that is related to the first part of the segment, roger stone. act one was this indictment of the russians for hacking the e-mail. and act two potentially is the indictment of roger stone. act three is going to be dramatic if it happens. >> well, and let me say this. they understand, giuliani has said this. he views this as entirely a political proceeding and not a legal one. so he is doing something that is outside the bounds of legal procedure. >> he is saying that, he is a lawyer. he still needs to abide by the rules. >> thank you for joining me. testimony about manafort's action while serving in the trump campaign. that story in two minutes. this isn't just any moving day. resigned to dangle possible jobs in the trump administration to a bank ceo over a month long process to get millions of dollars in bank loans. dennis raico testified in court under grant of immunity the bank ceo stephen calk. bank ceo was hoping for treasury secretary or hud secretary or secretary of the army. rick gates testified that he was trying to get him the job. manafort got two different loans from that bank totaling $16 million. for more on today's testimony, joined by elie honig. >> calk seems to be working with manafort and others. so that is the bank fraud charge. what is not charged but springs to mind could be bribery. talking about this outrageous cabinet position. delivering this enormous loan to manafort. why did manafort take this job for no pay at a strange time. just washed out of his ukrainian business. >> manafort joins the campaign march 29, 2016. in may, they have dinner. he has dinner with the bank ceo. in july they video conference. august 3rd, manafort asks for calk resume. november 11 calk believes he might be up for job. >> no legitimate explanation. it ties together. and tells you a story as to why he would have come in as campaign manager. >> this trial has to do with manafort's activities largely before he enters trump's orbit. but here he is using that position in a corrupt way allegedly. using his proximity of power. and it is the closest we have come to the actual administration in the campaign. >> and this is the key turning point in the time line. living large, has his crazy wardrobe, his landscaping. his business goes busts and then lying to the bank because he has got to maintain this lifestyle. he outright lied, doctored documents. >> one theme of the trump era is grifters grifting grifters. everybody is lying. there is a book out which seems to be in that theme. you have paul manafort telling this dude that he is trying to roll for a loan. you might be up for secretary. >> we say, it is grifters grifting grifters. you can't flip, you can't get into a closed secretive criminal organization without some grifter walking you through it. so, you take a page right out of the southern district closing play book. >> what i find amazing is manafort pulls off the grift. at the end of the day manafort walk the out with $16 million and calk doesn't end up with a job. >> and compare it to gates. the defense is it was all gates. but look at the money. manafort makes ten times what gates makes. >> thank you for your time. still to come, laura ingram afraid of massive demographic change. and a reform white supremacist on how he broke away from the hate movement next. it has been one year since white supremacist gathered in charlottesville, virginia chanting jews will not replace us. to protest the proposed removal of the statue. our own trymaine lee . what did you find? >> i really wanted to better understand the deep connections to these monument. i headed down south and we talked to folks in the community where these monuments exist. we learned a lot. if we learned everything at all, it was never about a monument at all. >> would you mind spelling your first and last name for us. >> first name gordon. last name cotton. just like you pick. >> is it time for us to move forward? >> no. if we move forward on this, we will leave everything out of our history. are we going to be selective if what we are going to keep and what we are going to forget. >> what about the idea that these men were fighting to maintain this system of slavery. >> they were fighting because our homes were invaded. and the whole thing based on money. >> going back to charlottesville. someone was killed, someone was shot at. someone beaten up. does it surprise you when somebody is that virulent in their support in robert e. lee and the rest. >> they are not the ones that started. had the people not wanted to tear down a beautiful monument it would not happened. >> perhaps it could be moved to somewhere where it is respected. >> i disagree with you. it happened here. we commemorate it here. >> what do you think of jefferson davis? >> he is my hero. >> he was someone who supported the expansion of slavery. >> he wasn't the only one. i think growing up in this community seven miles from briarfield, going to a school name jefferson davis, they will never destroy the man. >> stone ghosts. much more on the state of the union 1 year after charlottesville after this. i think there is blame on both sides. you look at both sides, i think there is blame on both sides and i have no doubt about it. and you don't have any doubt about it either. >> charlottesville, virginia preparing for the one year anniversary for the white supremacist rallies leaving one person dead. here a former white supremacist working to separate people from that moment. a documentary about his journey breaking hate airs sunday on msnbc. my question to you is whether charlottesville was a kind of victory for that movement or a defeat. >> i think it was a victory because any sort of publicity they consider good for them. they go to progressive areas like charlottesville or even berkeley. they are trying to provoke people and we are still talking about it a year later. unfortunately heather higher was killed because of that and they are threatening to come back. and done for decades. i used to do it years ago. we used to march and did this same exact thing. >> one of the thing that comes through is it is not an accident that those folks who are out in the streets in charlottesville, continuity between the ideology between this is someone we should memorialize. >> it is ahistorical. it is hard to go anywhere in the south, their schools are named for robert e. lee. the idea that you are fighting for virtue. whether you want to keep the brown people across the border. you can't separate the roots of the trees from the leaves. >> you were from north. you were from chicago and got into this movement. and one of the people in the a.c. thompson document was a ucla grad school working for northrop grumman. >> it is not about ideology. the pre radicalization starts early for that. it is about a search for identity, community and purpose. if we hit what i call potholes in our journey of life, sometimes it detours us. and there is a savvy recruiter waiting for a vulnerable people. we would stand outside of a punk rock concert to do that. today it is the internet that is that punk rock concert. so many people online that can live there. >> does it help recruiting to have a president of the united states who says, you know, there were blame on both sides. >> right. >> who, you know, uses all sorts of tropes of white supremacy and racist language and behind the scenes calls african countries s-hole countries. does it help the movement? >> absolutely. 30 years ago we recognized the language we were using was putting off the average american white racist. so we were going to massage the language. go from boots to suits which david duke did in the early '90s. that is the m.o. they are trying to massage this and normalize it. and unfortunately it worked. and the president is absolutely enabling that. >> one of the things heather hyer's mother and father living with the aftermath of white supremacist. you memorialize in your reporting. i want to play this bit in the documentary. where you talked to a woman about her father who was lynched. take a listen. >> when you think about what you missed not having him. >> my mom went from prosperity to poverty almost overnight. sometimes i wonder what my life could have been had he lived. what my life could have been. >> think being the mourning and trauma of those folks down through the years and in charlottesville right now as they prepare to commemorate this one year. >> you see the battle flag, you see the statues around every corner. but sending a clear message. to those misguided, those lost who are seeking identity and find their identity in their whiteness. it is actionable. ultimately at the end of the day, it ends up being about racial terror. on the other side of it, so often from, we go from the lynch memorial in montgomery, alabama. and you see 4,000 names. the many more who have been dumped in shallow graves. >> question about how to deal with what seems in white supremacist, white national rhetoric. channeled in less and less disguised fashion. question about persuasion and arguing. can you argue with this ideology or must you defeat it. how do you think about it. >> that is a question on everybody's mind right now. we can have these conversations without enabling the ideology. without endorsing it when we do that. the work that i do is based on empathy. so i sit across from white supremacists almost every day or talk to them because my goal is try to enlighten them not through a debate in ideology, but through humanization. i try to destroy the demonization that is happening in their head by introducing them to the people they hate. and that is a powerful thing for people. >> does that work? >> absolutely it works. it has worked over 200 times. helping people to disengage from hate groups. every single one of them will tell you it is the compassion that they received from the people they thought that they hated. that changed their mind. >> thank you. "breaking hate," is this sunday 9:00 p.m. eastern. two years ago she was forcefully removed from a trump speech and tonight she is my guest after winning democratic primary for congress. >> tonight's thing one, thing two starts next. >> biggest electoral margin. so why should americans trust you. >> i was given that information. i was just given. we had a very, very big margin. i was given that information. i have seen that information around. but it was a very substantial victory. do you agree with that? >> donald trump is given all sorts of information. where he claims his approval rating is 90% without mentioning it is just republicans. actually, president's bush, reagan, nixon, were popular, at one point in the other. and there was no gallup polling during the civil war. the president's fuzzy grasp runs in the family. numbers that seem too good to be true. numbers that appear to be altered. and that is thing two in 60 seconds. don jr. took down the post this afternoon. but hey, he was just given that information. >> i was given that information. actually, i have seen that information around. but a very substantial victory. do you agree with that? >> you're the president. >> thank you. good answer. a distinct determination. to do whatever it takes, use every possible resource. to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. specialists focused on treating cancer. using advanced technologies. and more precise treatments than before. working as hard as we can- doing all that we can- for everyone who walks through our doors. this is cancer treatment centers of america. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. treating cancer isn't one thing we do. it's the only thing we do. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. are echoing the white nationalist claim that america is at risk because the nation is growing more diverse. an argument that treats the mere presence of nonwhite people, citizen or noncitizen, as an existential threat to the country. it is true the nation is growing more diverse but here's the thing. a big part of the country sees it not as a threat but a benefit. cause for celebration. this year has seen a really incredible explosion of democratic candidates from all kinds of back grounds. people like xanld rhea cortez whose comments prompted the rant and chairise. and then the first muslim woman ever elected to congress seen here interrupting a trump speech in detroit in 2016. she was one of several protesters dragged out of the hall that day. she is the daughter of tin immigrants, the eldest of 14 kids. she is now poised to represent a district 57% african-american and occupies a seat previously held by the civil rights icon john conyers who resigned last year amidst sexual harassment allegations. it was a really contested primary. you had this inspector. the way that he won't hanging over it. how did you win? >> i think i focused on the human contact. when you look at people in the face, in the eyes, on their porch. i think it changed people's minds and hearts. they were able to engage me and see that i really do want to elevate them and help them thrive and i believe it is because of that aggressive center door to door. >> the district is 57% african-american. and amidst this african-american about diversity and representation, you find yourself in a position where you have your own interesting representational role. how do you think about it? >> i think about it because i grew up in a community predominantly african-american. it is so much in line with the needs and the priorities for my families in the 13th congressional district. i don't think it is so far that i'm not african-american. i can tell you that i'll surround myself with a lot of people with that lens of growing up african-american. there is a lot of discussion around the connection and trauma sometimes. i recognize that and honor that. you have agendas or positions that are similar to people more to the left. abolish i.c.e., medicare for all, tuition free college. what do you say to people, people like yourself are feeding republicans a kind of useful caricature of the terrifying socialists who are coming to scare away middle america. we're not scaring anybody away. we're like the mama bears of the delegation about to come. it's. true i don't think you will find any women, especially women of color, that doesn't want to take care of their constituency. doesn't put them at the heart of what they perceive, as they move forward. we'll be able to help every person live in a free, just society. i am excited with exposing who i am as not only a detroiter, a democrat, a progressive, as a woman, to so many people across the country. not just in the 13th congressional district. people should not be afraid us. we are an incredible breed and i can't wait to work with them. to get elected this coming tuesday. i want to walk hand in hand with these beautiful women that the heart that we need in congress. it is something completely missing in the culture. right now president in the u.s. congress. >> do you think differentfully what your heart and job will be? the odds of you winning are overwhelming at this point, should you actually enter congress, which is likely, the difference between being a member and a minority member? >> i am a former michigan state legislator. i worked in the majority and the minority and i know this is bigger. if your work and the issues around your constituency, your district, if your center is them, then you'll be able to be effective. i was able to do so much more in the minority in bringing resources back to my community. i had a neighborhood service center in the heart of my district and i'll continue to do that in congress. it keeps me grounded and focussed and it help me bring resources to my families. so they're not waiting. all the things that are really critical to work. on it are not me getting connected. that doesn't even imagine for the majority or minority. >> thank you for spending some time with us. >> thank you for having me. >> this is your friendly friday reminder. our podcast, why is this