Chris Hayes discusses the days top news. Probes next target. One of his close allies, the Manhattan Madam, testifying before a grand jury in the investigation today, while another one of stones allies is being held in Contempt Of Court today for refusing to comply with the judges order to testify. Which means hes choosing potential jail time over cooperating with robert mueller. Here to help us understand all the days developments, joyce vance, former u. S. Attorney and law professor, frank figliuzzi. On set with Us White House reporter from the the Washington PostAshley Parker and mike schmidt from sniemz. The new york times. Joyce, let me start with you and the machinations of this for a nonlawyer and someone outside this court, it seems like a bizarre, bizarre trial with a very interesting character as a judge. Tell us what it means that they were on pause for so long, do we know what they were doing and what are the scenarios for what could have been going on. He could know about contacts between people involved in the campaign and russians. So there are a lot of possibilities for what he might be able to narrate. Well just have to remain curious a little bit longer. Frank figliuzzi, he was around on the campaign when figures like carter page were also swirling around, that rather chaotic campaign. George papadopoulos was around that campaign. It started as a counterintelligence investigation, something you know a little bit about. How would you use rick gates in the larger investigation into potential collusion or conspiracy with the russians to impact the 2016 campaign . What questions would you have him answer in exchange for what joyce just described, potentially no or little jail time . So i never thought that rick gates was all about a White Collar Crime case against manafort. He can answer the key question, the umbrella question of what this is all about, which is to
what extent did this campaign collude with an adversarial government to impact the outcome of an election. And did the president of the United States have as his Campaign Chairman an agent of a foreign power. Thats what gates gets to the heart of. Thats what hes answering. And i believe he knows the answers to those questions and has already provided them to the mueller team. And you reminded us today that gates was around a lot longer than manafort was. Theres been a lot of fire attacking manafort saying he wasnt around long, he gets the papadopoulos coffee boy treatment. Rick gates was and they havent done nearly as an effective job of distancing themselves. He was around during the transition, he was around in the white house, he was in and around these meetings until he was indicted. Rick gates is a survivor. I remember on the campaign the president wants him gone, the president wants him fired, then there he was. Not only does he have this
perch as manaforts righthand man but hes there through the rest of the campaign. The convention is mentioned. He was a role on the inaugural committee. Through President Trump he was deeply involved in the daytoday business of the white house, spotted on those 16 or 18 acres. Really, as you said, up until the day he was indicted. This is another reminder of how deep the tentacles of muellers probe potentially go and how much we dont know. And so while theres not a ton of concern at least yet in the west wing of manafort flipping, there is more concern about, a, gates has already flipped and, b, what he may know. Do you have any sense, mike schmidt, there is any growing anxiety about all these fronts theyre managing now since the manafort trial . The ruling yesterday there is a value gates has to the larger investigation. We havent heard much from cohen this week but thats obviously ongoing and unfolding. Is the president there sort of stewing . Is that why we see jay and rudy . This is what happened. Then you have another witness that recalls, well, no, thats not how i recall it, it happened this way. Someone writes a report and says, well, we believe this one, we dont believe that one, thus its perjury. Flynn is the example. No crime. If it had been said, president says go easy on him which the president says he didnt say stop it, dont do it, so no crime. However, It Didnt Take place according to the president. According to comey it did. Now of course if it did, it wouldnt have mattered. But youre right. Im thinking my cousin vinny. Why are they acting out how the president might perjure himself in interview after interview after interview . This cannot be said enough. They believe the only thing that matters is public opinion. And if they can muddy the waters and make it more difficult for the average voter, the average voter will put less pressure on people in the House Of Representatives and the president will not face an impeachment. Its that simple. If theyre on the air going on and on about Different Things making it more confusing, muddying the whole thing, then to them they think thats effective. Rudy will look at the poll numbers from before he came in and where they are now, and theyd say, look, we have eroded muellers standing with voters. That is an accomplishment for us. Thats how they see it. Joyce, it seems like that is a strategy of necessity. And if thats a strategy of necessity, it would seem the facts are not on their side. I think there are probably, what, four witnesses who can corroborate the other side of what rudy is describing, who can corroborate comeys side, Andrew Mccabe who is his deputy and others in the fbi. But the larger point seems to be that his own lawyers are making their client sound guilty of at least obstruction of justice and maybe making it sound like a legitimate line of inquiry to ask what he knew about the meeting with russians to get dirt on his opponent. They are on the one hand, but
i think it is absolutely 100 accurate that all that they are doing here is playing the Public Relations strategy. They dont want to see motivated citizens doing what they did on health care or on immigration, calling their representatives on the hill and demanding impeachment. So theyre willing, in essence, to sacrifice the more legal argument in favor of that strategy. But what theyre describing as a perjury trap and we know we discussed this a time and two before, that it really is utterly inane. What the government has to do is prove perjury beyond a reasonable doubt. So, when you have rudy saying, well, one person says one thing and another persons memory is different and the government charges perjury, thats Utter Nonsense because the government will have to go into court and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. A he said she said isnt enough. When you have perhaps a president who tweeted he knew Michael Flynn lied to the fbi and the president goes to jim comey and asked him to go light on flynn, you might be talking
about obstruction and perjury and a little bit of a different manner than just this he said she said that giuliani consistently talks about. Frank figluizzi, let me get you in on this. Why did they acting out this . Why are they doing that . We know rudy believes in hanging a lantern around your problems, but this is a spotlight. When youre deciding something beyond a reasonable doubt youve got to put things on a scale and you have to start determining who do i believe and is there enough credible evidence to make a conclusion. What theyre afraid of is that the president is unable to tell the truth because the truth is going to jam him up. Thats the problem here. So hes going to have to lie to the mueller team if hes going to come out of this, and they
know that theyre trapped. Its not mueller trapping them, they have put themselves in a box. The president himself has said conflicting statements. So its a question of its not only a question of who do we believe, which statement from the president do we get to believe. So this is simply why im continuing to assert that hes not going to be interviewed. If he is interviewed, it would be completely on his own defense all advice of counsel. Id love to see it happen. Is it going to happen . What they also have to do, if the president doesnt do an interview and it looks like its going to be difficult, theyre going to have to explain that to the public. There is going to be a political question. If you did Nothing Wrong, why cant you answer questions . So part of softening the Public Relations thing is coming up with an explanation for that. And that is why you see them say perjury trap because theyre going to have to say to the public, look, heres why he cant do this thing, that most people would say if he did Nothing Wrong why cant you answer. Thats their strategy as well for ignoring a subpoena . That would be their strategy . The president would have to explain. He can say this is a witch hunt over and over again. The average person will say, just go and answer the questions. If you have nothing to hide, thats what i tell my 6yearold. Ashley parker, roger stone seems to be the person in the swirl today on the Collusion Side of the investigation, the Manhattan Madam went in and testified, another former aide is being held in Contempt Of Court today. Does that trigger any anxiety around the don Junior Circle or the jared circle or any of the other individuals who were in the room with the russians who promised dirt . I think right now yes and no. Roger stone is pretty loyal to the president. They have a very complicated love hate relationship that goes back decades. As far as we know. But stone sort of understands the psychology of President Trump better than most people in that orbit. And he said publicly so far hes not going to testify against the president. I think thats probably viewed as reassuring, although this white house understands that people can flip like, for instance, Michael Cohen. Michael flynn. And Michael Flynn. And rick gates. So and pretty much everybody except Paul Manafort has flipped. So theyre aware that people can change when theyre getting pressed by the feds. There is also a sense when you have someone, a sort of selfdescribed colorful character, a practitioner of the dark arts like roger stone who sort of relishes in that image and plays up that idea of himself, its never great if he ends up going before muellers team. He does have these long ties to donald trump. It doesnt seem like a good fact, good piece of the pattern. The person who arguably was around him in the context of politics the longest was the colluder. Right. Not a good fact. Not a good fact. Frank, what would you do as an investigator if you were able to put roger stone in the category of people who you can prosecute beyond a reasonable doubt if you were able to do that, able to charge him . Where does he fit into this collusion puzzle . Yeah, i think weve been because theres been so many people to focus on, weve been ignoring the significance of
stone. Stone is a significant player here because, lets not forget, the whole connection to russian social media propaganda, the connection to julian assange, the wikileaks issue, hacking, all of this is encircling stone. And mueller is getting closer and closer. Lets not forget that the Manhattan Madam was interviewed first voluntarily by the mueller team, and then put in front of a grand jury. That tells us she said something very significant, very worthwhile, and likely against stone or someone else being targeted by the mueller team. So this is a man to keep watching. Im beginning to envision a Cafeteria Table in a federal prison where one guy says to the other guy, hey, what are you in for . Im in because i Couldnt Rat Out the president. Yeah, me, too. These people are going to prison. Thats a good tv show. I think you just pitched a pilot. After the break, in service of an audience of one. The president s allies up the ante for their war on justice, Readying Subpoenas for leadership. The oneyear anniversary of the deadly protest and counterprotest in charlottesville is this weekend and the president who saw good people on both sides, he marked it by reupping one of his favorite wedge issues, attacking nfl players who kneel in protest. And more hush money. Brand new reporting from the Washington Post about another woman offered money to keep quiet about donald trump. All of that coming up. Stay with us. Door Bell Rings its open hey. This is amazing. With moderate to severe ulcerative colitis, are you okay . Even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart. So i talked to my doctor about humira. I learned humira can help get, and keep Uc Under Control when other medications havent worked well enough. And it helps people achieve control that lasts. So you can experience few or no symptoms. 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Better life. Money managers are pretty much the same. All but while some push High Commission investment products, Fisher Investments avoids them. Some advisers have hidden and layered fees. Fisher investments never does. And while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, Fisher Investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. Maybe thats why most of our clients come from other money managers. Fisher investments. Clearly better money management. Its pretty clear first it was no puppet, youre the puppet. Now maybe its no collusion, you colluded. Rudy giuliani tweeted this this morning. Maybe its time for Attorney General Sessions to appoint a Special Counsel to investigate the conspiracy to defeat donald trump by buying and disseminating fake dossiers, obtaining illegal wires and commencing baseless fbi investigations. And as is so often the case in the new world in which we live, giuliani apparently has backup on capitol hill. A new report out today says the republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee is Readying Subpoenas for people connected to the controversial steele dossier. Sources tell the hill. The committee will go after other current and former fbi and doj officials, including jim baker, sally moyer, jonathan moffa, and George Toskas the sources said. Joyce is back. Ashley is on set. You believe it to be an important piece of all this. Why . Once again, nicolle, we are seeing not oversight, but rather complete attempts to obstruct by calling as witnesses under subpoena to the hill people who some of whom are career Public Servants. Jonathan moffa, for example, is a longtime career Intelligence Analyst in the Counterintelligence Division of the fbi. Hes very smart. Hes been with this case since day one. So what theyre doing is they have identified him by name. They are going to call him to the hill under subpoena. They are going to threaten contempt if He Doesnt Spill Everything he knows as sensitive as it is about this case, and its shameful that theyre going to attack a Public Servant for political reasons. Thats what were going to watch happen here and i hope it doesnt happen. Mike schmidt, how do they destroy the credibility of the fbi attacks land at the fbi . Some of these people were, are highly regarded figures who had the bureaus interest in mind and they are now political chum in the water for rudy and the president. Look at the damage theyve done. They got rid of the director, the deputy director, the general counsel and the top counterintelligence agent. So, in that sense theyve cleared out the folks the closest to this investigation. I think the fbi is as good enough of an organization that whoever replaced those folks are probably as capable. But what a deterrent and what a success it has been to hollow out the agency in the way that they have. But is there any fear all those people did that we just named, theyve scrutinized the fisa application. Theyve scrutinized the dossier and original application. The surveillance was fruitful enough to continue to reauthorize it. Is there any change how they go about doing their jobs because of these attacks . I dont think so. My guess is theyre probably a little more nervous. Do you really want to be on a big case now if youre a line fbi agent knowing you may get called before congress. You may have hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal
bills, you might turn out like pete strzo