Upon doras box. The shutdown continues zim proud to shut down the government. As a white house envolkswavo senator Kamala Harris makes it official. I am running for president of the United States. And im very excited about it. What we know about the campaign and the candidate. All in starts. Why not yes, we are diverse y and we have so much more in common than what separates us. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Key questions about the president s purity of a real estate deal in russia during the 2016 campaign and his lawyers efforts to hide that deal from the public are once again front and center. Now, things have only gotten more confusing in the wake of buzzfeeds explosive report last week that the president directed Michael Cohen to lie to congress about the socalled moscow project. That was knocked down in a remarkable but somewhat ambiguously worded statement from the office of special counsel Robert Mueller. And then since then, the president s lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, has made things even worse by claiming and then retracting information material to both the russia probe and the future of this presidency. It is all wildly confusing, even, frankly, for someone who follows it for a living. Lets take a step back and look at what we know for sure. Whether or not buzzfeeds report turns out to be true, there does seem to be widespread consensus the president instruct ing a witness to lie to congress would cross an obvious bright red line. It would constitute an Impeachable Offense and thats thats what drove the freakout over buzzfeeds story. That freakout we now know included the president s legal team. A source familiar with the matter telling nbc news that friday morning after the story had been published, the president s own lawyers, quote, raised concerns in a letter to the special counsels office before it released its own statement disputing buzzfeeds report. Another thing for sure is that the president s company was continuing to pursue a deal in moscow seeking putins approval far later than they diflgd to the public. We dont know the truth about whether the president intervened directly with Michael Cohen to try to cover it up, even after the special counsels denial, buzzfeed is standing by its story. I have further confirmation that this is right, were being told to stand our ground. Our reporting is going to be borne out to be accurate, and were 100 behind it. In an interview yesterday, the president s own lawyer appeared to weirdly bolster buzzfeeds regulatporting when refused to rule out that he had talked to Michael Cohen before his congressional testimony. As far as i know, President Trump did not have discussions with him, certainly had no discussions with him which much he told him to lie. If he had any discussions with him, they would be about the version of the events that Michael Cohen gave them which they all believe was true. You just acknowledged that its possible that President Trump talked to Michael Cohen about his testimony . Which would be perfectly normal, which the president believes was true. So its possible that happened, that President Trump talked to Michael Cohen. I dont know if it happened or didnt happen. Not perfectly normal at all talking to someone testifying before congress. Today giuliani tried to take back those very comments, telling the New York Daily News they never spoke to cohen about his testimony. Giuliani yesterday raised the possibility that talks about the moscow project continued well past the last known date in june 2016, lasting all the way until election day. Its our understanding they went on throughout 2016, werent a lot of them, but there were conversations. Cant be sure of the exact dates. Throughout 2016. Yeah, probably up to could be up to as far as october, november. Our answers cover until the election. Okay. Today once again giuliani tried to take that back as well, telling nbc news my recent statements about discussions during the 2016 campaign between Michael Cohen and thencandidate donald trump were hypothetical and not based on conversations i had with the president. The weird thing about this is we know the president s lawyers have already had to nail down the details on all these matters as part of their clients written responses to Robert Mueller. For more on what could possibly be going on with giuliani, im joined by elliott williams, former Deputy Assistant attorney general and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade. Barbara, you are now a law professor. Do you teach this particular type of lawyering in your school . No. I dont think so. You know its hard to know whether Rudy Giuliani is just being really careless or he floats these statements in an effort to diffuse them and sometimes realizes he went too far. But either way it doesnt seem to be serving the best Interest Rates of his clients. He seems to be working more as sort of a pr agent than as a lawyer for donald trump. Im not sure hes helping his cause much by making statements that he then has to retract. Elliott, the time line here is important for a number of reasons. If the moscow project is an active sort of front burner concern throughout the entire campaign, that is, clearly leverage that Vladimir Putin holds over the the president , its also quite relative if after they know the russians have hacked after theyve been briefed by u. S. Intelligence, theres still a channel set up to talk about a moscow deal. I want to read what giuliani told the new york times. He said it was a hindsigypothet. The trump tower discussions were going on from the day i announced to the day i won. Mr. Giuliani quoted mr. Trump as saying during an interview during the new york times. So it does seem like hes trying to extend that window. You know how on meet the press he said truth isnt truth . Apparently conversations arent conversations either. Seriously. Either theyre hypothetical or theyre not. Or hes having them or theyre not. I would like to second the the point barbara made that perhaps because they are rational actors, the president , Rudy Giuliani, and so on, this has to be a strategy to get the information out there that either the conversations happened well until i guess late in 2016 or they didnt, that something might be coming out to confirm the information and hes trying to blunt the potential fallback for the campaign that it would come out. Its the only real way to explain these continue continue dictions. Whatever Michael Cohen was up to the president was only tangentially involved. The case that giuliani is making does seem to matter for ultimately what we learn about this very crucial deal is essentially that whatever cohen was doing, the president kind of knew about it but doesnt really remember, right . I think that does seem to be part of the strategy. Also telling conflicting stories may be part of the strategy so the public throws up their hands. It does contradict things donald trump said. That he had no business negotiations with russia. This at the at the same time it appears there were going on. The contradiction catches the eye of the prosecutor. Shifting stories tends to show something that gets referred to as consciousness of guilt. They know theyve done something wrong, which is why they have to lie about it. At one point President Trump said this business was very legal and very cool. If it was, then why were you lying about it . Why were you telling different stories about it . That seems to suggest the truth is something even worse than the risk of being caught in a lie its a great point, barbara. We dont know what in the buzzfeed story ends up being true or not. But one of the details is the idea of ten facetoface briefings between Michael Cohen and the president on trump tower. Thats a very front of mind kind of thing. Theres a kind of motive that supplies the way the president talks about Vladimir Putin from the beginning which is down right bizarre. Take a listen. I believe i would get along very nicely with putin. Okay . And i mean where we have the strength. I dont think you need if putin wants to knock the hell out of isis, im all for it 100 and i cant understand how anybody would be against it. At least hes a leader unlike what we have in this country. Again, he kills journalists that dont agree with him. Well, i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe. Do you think the United States needs to rethink u. S. Involvement in nato . Yes, because its costing us too much money, and, frankly, they have to put up more money. I have nothing to do with russia. I dont have any jobs in russia. Im all over the world but were not involved in russia. Figuring out whats behind that seems crucial here, elliott. Ronald reagan must be rolling over in his grave at these statements. This is not the policy certainly of the america i grew up in. Frankly, this is also around the time the Republican National committee was amending the Campaign Platform with respect to russia. So yes, it would seem that trump had a huge business interest in russia or some interest, something held over him in russia. Chris, i cant explain it better than you can because it is absolutely perplexing that someone who aspires to be president of the United States is speaking this favorably about russia. That morning joe clip is the most instructive one when equating whatever killings happened at the midwebehest of United States, particularly what we know about the execution of a very highprofile report happening around the world. Its just not the america that any of us are used to and its astonishing. The ongoing deal provides a crisp and clear concrete motive if indeed we do learn the president was involved. Seems to be thats why this is crucial in understanding this. Elliott williams and barbara mcquade, great to have you both. For more on how this fits into the big picture, im joined by michael isakoff, a veteran on this beat who has been digging into it. What do you make of the last 72 hours . Look, i was really struck by giulianis correction today, amendment to his statements yesterday, that he was speaking hypothetically and not based on any conversations he had with the president. Well, if hes not speaking based on conversations hes had with the client hes representing, then why are people having him on at all . Whats he doing . Hes only there because hes the president s lawyer. If hes just riffing on his own, it does raise serious questions about exactly what hes doing. But look, to me, all this only underscores how really important it is for congress to finally step up to the plate here. I mean, were going to have a real test on february 7th when Michael Cohen appears before the House Oversight committee. And its up to elijah cummings, the chairman, to hold his feet to the fire and ask every question about every aspect of this without regard to what the impact might be on the Robert Mueller investigation. Congress has its own duty here a constitutional responsibility to get to the facts and act on them and not outsource its investigative responsibilities to an executive branch official. Mueller has his job to do, but there are other jobs and equally important if not more important job that congress has to finally resolve all these many questions we have. I couldnt agree with you more strongly. Its a point ive been trying to make for the last year, and its only in the last few days that people are starting to recognize that, you know, getting to the facts, the public responsibility here. Ill ask you one question as an example going back in history. When sam irvin held the Senate Watergate hearings, did he ask archibald coxs permission to hold those hearings . When they began hearings on richard nixon, did he ask for gentleman warskis permission to do so . No because everybody accepted that congress had a job to do. You know, were now going to see whether elijah cummings, adam schiff, jerry nadler will step up to the plate and now their job here. And that means public hearings, not behind closed doors crucially, to your point here, february 7th now becomes even more key because Michael Cohen is going to walk into that room with all this swirling around. Again, the word of Michael Cohen even under oath is not ironclad as we have learned from his own plead, but he will have an opportunity to lay out at least his sworn testimony is going to be. Your point is so key. Before you get to anything else about the rendering of judgment, establishing record of the facts, which is what can start for the first time in the trump era since comeys testimony on february 7th with Michael Cohen. Absolutely. Look, it has been now more than two years since the house and the Senate Intelligence committees announced they were going to be investigating these matters and not a single public hearing has been held with a single fact witness in the entire russia investigation. That is astonishing to me. All the hearings that were held, all the interviews were done behind closed doors. We still havent seen the public release of that testimony, by the way. So Michael Cohens testimony, donald trump jr. s testimony, go down the list, Jared Kushners testimony. All behind closed doors and were still in the dark about exactly what they said michael isakoff, that is a great point. I think theres a divide between journalists and prosecutors on this. The prosecutors say you have to leave them alone, its a criminal inquiry and the journalists tend to want public transparency. You saw chris murphy say this. I thought it was interesting on friday after the buzzfeed story. Its even more important in some ways after the carr statement to say, look, we got to do something here in congress publicly about what the heck is going on in this country and with respect to this president. Absolutely. You know, with all due respect to all your legal analysts who talk about the sanctity of the investigation, fine, Robert Mueller has a job to do. He should do it. And he can do it. Others in our democracy have jobs too that are just as important. Michael isakoff, thank you. Thank you. What to make of the special counsels rare move on comme commenting on the news. Why now . Should we expect to hear more . A look at what Robert Mueller is up to in two minutes. Factorytrained technicians. Or it isnt. Its backed by an unlimited mileage warranty, or it isnt. For those who never settle, its either mercedesbenz certified preowned, or it isnt. The mercedesbenz certified preowned sales event. Now through february 28th. Only at your authorized mercedesbenz dealer. But some give their clients cookie cutter portfolios. Fisher investments tailors portfolios to your goals and needs. Some only call when they have something to sell. Fisher calls regularly so you stay informed. And while some advisors are happy to earn commissions whether you do well or not. Fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. Maybe thats why most of our clients come from other money managers. Fisher investments. Clearly better money management. And the army taught me a lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Until friday, the special counsels office was the most notoriously silent major operation in all washington, d. C. Not only did it never leak, peter carr, its official spokesperson basically never gave a comment. So notorious was his tightlipped approach, yahoo called him a man of mystery. That changed on friday when carr issued a statement on the record disputing the accuracy of the buzzfeed story about trump directing cohen to lie to congress. Its been followed now by a number of stories that appear to be sourced to people inside muellers office explaining their rationale off the record. Now the question becomes since muellers office has spoke up in response to one story, what to make of their silence for all the others. Joining me is the author of that peter carr man of mystery profile, hunter walker. Also broke major part of this trump moscow story. What do you as someone who wrote about peter carr make of what happened friday and what it does now i should note i wrote that profile with my colleague nyc southpaw. Weve been fascinated by peter carr because he is in one of the most highly scrutinized and important offices there is. Hes one of the only ways mueller speaks apart from court filings. And yet its usually sounds of silence. His typical refrain is will decline to comment. Thats what made what weve seen in the past couple days so amazing as you point out because in statement from him was nothing short of extraordinary compared to the just courthouho no comments before. If they dont comment on anything, then not commenting can be interpreted as assent to the basics of the story or denial. Now they have come out to dispute a story on the record. You got to wonder what happens from now on because if they dont do it with the next story and its wrong, theres a presumptive sense that they came out of the last one. Due to the importance of the allegations here and also due to the rarity of carrs statement, you saw a lot of people trying to parse, you know, what is this punctuation mean . I would assume thats part of why youve seen them participate in these followup stories just t