Twitter, i dont just tweet about hamilton, ben said this shows two strands of the investigation which we thought of as separate things are really the same thing. That is, the obstruction of justice question is essentially, is trump a compromised russian asset, maybe unwitting, maybe witting. Thats the same question that has to be asked on the obstruction of justice investigation. So whereas last week i would have answered your question the same way chuck did, look, you can break off obstruction pretty easily, mueller could write an interim report, its not that easy. Hearing you put the question, is the president an agent of a foreign power, can you believe were having this discussion . I think its mindblowing, quite honestly. It does underscore two things, number one, how important this Mueller Investigation is to the future of our democracy. This is something republicans wanted to shut down and call a witch hunt and here we now know, because of mueller, the president S National Security adviser has pled guilty to a felony involving the russians, the president s Campaign Manager pled guilty, manafort, and now that plea is being unraveled because of the same stuff, cooperation with the russians and so on. It also demonstrates the importance of that election back in november because now finally congress is going to fulfill its madisonian responsibilities and start to ask these questions and not just have it be within the shrouded Law EnforcementCommunity Run by bob mueller. Cynthia, can you believe this is the conversation . No, i cant. Every once in a while i say, no, that cant be right, its too scary. It really is, its threatening to our democracy. To pick up on the obstruction question, in addition to Benjamin Wittes obstruction is the collusion, there is the other aspect that the president is completely unpredictable. As pressure is applied to him, he has a tendency to do really stupid things which can be obstruction. We saw that first with the firing of comey. We saw that with flynn. Weve seen that in a lot of different ways. If something happens with a member of his family, with roger stone, he may reimbursemeact in way that he blows up and is even more dangerous. I see the potential, given his behavior and demeanor, to continue. Do you chalk that up to the fact that hes run a Family Company and is not used to living with consequences of his actions . There is no evidence that hes ever lived with any consequence of any action. And couple that with the fact that hes a bully and a liar, thats the recipe for future obstruction. One thing i would say about that, though, he may be a liar, but god, i hope hes not a russian asset. Oh, me too, absolutely. I think we all share that. That would be so devastating for the country if we found that out. Im with you. Thats why we need to know the facts. Thats why barr is so important too, because he is i mean, like it or not a lot of this is going to rest a lot of it is going to rest on him. Look, i think the point cynthia made about obstruction is exactly right. I dont know how you wrap the obstruction piece up while the rest of the investigation is going, given the way the president behaves. The obstruction of justice investigation of the president has expanded. The president called Matt Whitaker after the sdny investigation and put pressure on him and asked why more wasnt being done to rein in the prosecutors who are investigating the president , the president s family, the president s personal business. Thats probably the most damning evidence weve seen against the president. You could make a plausible case his intervention with mike flynn was because he thought mike flynn was a good guy, or the strong article ii argument on behalf of the president. Theres no argument for the president to intervene in the sdny investigation other than to stop investigation of his own criminality. The prosecutors in the Southern District of new york, they saw that report, and theyre not going to let that go. Theyre not just going to be investigating the president of the Campaign Finance crimes. Theyre going to be expanding that into whether he tried to obstruct their investigation. Whether they do it or it goes to a new prosecutor or mueller does it, i guarantee we have not heard the end of that report. Its amazing, he gives this interview on fox where he says, you know, i think you have to go after Michael Cohens take a look at Michael Cohens fatherinlaw and see whether hes committed various crimes. Then the trump defenders say, they always say take a look at the guy who is ratting me out and so forth. But the president is different than everyone else. He cant even be indicted because he controls the prosecution power. Everyone else, we can all do that if were under suspicion, but the president can do it because he has an awesome tool to go after anyone, prosecute remember and investigate to the hilt Michael Cohens fatherinlaw. Whats amazing is he doesnt learn anything. You would think, after everything youve been through in this investigation, that somebody would have gotten through to him that you cannot threaten other witnesses. And yet he has not learned that basic question. Thats why i think hell do more, if theres more pressure applied to him, because he learns nothing. To bring it back to the barr hearing, one of the interesting answers that we havent discussed is this question of whether the president could pardon someone in exchange for trying to silence their testimony, would it be a crime. Its an important question, most of the conversation about barrs memo has been around his argument that fire jim comey would not in itself be an act of obstruction of justice. But he also made the case that the president had a right to fire people who were witnesses against him. But what barr made clear today is if the president was pardoning someone to silence him, that would be a crime. Thats so important because we know the president s attorney, john dowd, had conversations with Paul Manaforts team, with mike flynns team, the president has dabbled with the idea of pardoning roger stone and others. I thought it was very interesting that the potentially incoming attorney general was willing to endorse that. Now, if hes asked about the specific factual nature of the president s behavior, im sure he wont answer that, it would probably be irresponsible for him to do so. But that was an important thing for him to say, especially given we know the president s behavior and we know, there have been reports that the special counsel is investigating the president s offering of pardons. Lets take a quick shot of the hearing room, if we can, just to show you. It is remarkable that were supposed to be back under way in seven minutes. Its also remarkable just how much food can be consumed by that many people. But theyre all taking advantage of this break. High above that room is our own ari melber, our chief Legal Correspondent and host of the beat on this very network. Ari, notable in this conversation, in addition to what were talking about where mr. Barr is concerned, is the fact that our nations former solicitor general just said, god, i hope the president isnt a russian asset. I heard it. It is the particular situation we are in that hangs over this entire hearing, which in some ways is why this is always, in the worst case scenario, felt potentially bigger than watergate, because its an international watergate, because its a National Security watergate, because its a watergate that implicates a former nucleararmed power that already, according to this mueller probe, was actively taking these measures to both intrude in the election, interfere, and try to coopt americans. All of that hangs over here. I think thats why this week feels very real. When you look at what happened behind me, and as you said, well see how quickly the senators refill their seats, one thing that we havent touched on much had our coverage which i think is significant is bill barr trying to explain or clean up his conflicting accounts of the James Comey Firing and the james comey handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation. Theyre obviously linked, because during the campaign barr backed up comey, and afterward, trump said he fired comey because of the way he handled clinton, i backed trump up. That firing remains an issue in the mueller probe. Barrs offered reason for the discrepancy is because he thought originally comey had doj approval for what he did but of course comey made very clear when he announced the findings of the Clinton Probe that he acted alone, thats what made it such a big deal. That was a discrepancy today that i think well hear more about in the future questioning. I also want to go to chuck rosenberg, chuck, it struck me today, and i was thinking about you, Lindsey Graham, as chairman of this committee, started his presentation with dual attacks on the department of justice and the fbi, and further, ill quote Gregg Jarrett on fox news last night about the fbi, quote, this is an allpowerful, out of control agency, rogue agency, and frankly its time that it be halted in its tracks, reorganized, and replaced with a new organization. It is time that the fbi be halted. Let me presume, chuck, you disagree with that premise. I do, brian, that is deeply and maliciously false. And other words come to mind that probably would not you would prefer me not using on television. Let me tell you this about the fbi, because i had the privilege of working there. They are deeply tethered to the rule of law and to the constitution. In particular with respect to counterintelligence investigations. They are among the most highly regulated investigations in our federal government. The means of overseeing them are multiple and manifest. For instance, just for a counterintelligence investigation, in the executive branch you have oversight through the foreign intelligence Advisory Board and the president s Civil Liberties and oversight board. Congress overcea ceassees the w. The Inspector General oversees the work. In some respects the media oversees the work, although not formally. And of course anything the fbi does, they will have to account for in the years to come. The rule books, the manuals, the guidelines for counterintelligence investigations are significant, theyre complex, and they are adhered to. And so the things that the fellow on fox had to say or the new chairman had to say are deeply wrong. Theyre offensive. Theyre malicious. And they undermine the work of the men and women of the fbi. It really breaks my heart to hear. Cynthia, can you believe in your time in and around the law that were witnessing this direct a frontal attack on the fbi and its reputation . No. And i would echo, it breaks my heart, because the people who work there are so wellmeaning and work so hard for very little pay to try to make this a more perfect union. And its offensive. And i have to tell you, Lindsey Graham opening this hearing, going after these agents, you know, this is a guy who apparently no longer has any commitment to the truth at all. Hes mr. Trump. And during the campaign he called him a racebaiting, xenophobic bigot. He called him a cookook. He said he was the worlds biggest jack ass. He called him one of the worlds biggest liars. I have no tolerance for him at all. He lies with impunity. Im sick of him. Neal katyal, somewhere in the United States someone is hearing the words fbi at their door. Theyre serving a warrant, doing their jobs, somewhere out there an fbi agent is a witness in a courtroom acting as the governments investigator. Thats right. President trump has accused people who cooperate with the fbi as being rats, i cant imagine anything more demoralizing to the prosecutors and agents. President trump is going after the fbi and saying they shouldnt have had this counterintelligence investigation. Theres a hypothetical that maybe some people are going to climb his wall and arm the United States. And here the fbi has information that the president may be a compromised russian asset. What would he want them to do . Of course its the most important National Security question facing the question. Of course you have to have an investigation. How could you do anything else . Anything else would be undemocratic, unamerican, and irresponsible. Here is the problem. People think, oh, this is just washington, its a mess, you just kind of want to dismiss it. But recognize this. To bring up your to follow up on your point about fbi agents in cases, all over the country we are relying on these men and women to bring criminals and drug dealers to justice. And if you go into the courtroom and you say, this fbi agent says this criminal did x and nobody believes him, these guys are all going free. So it isnt that this is a washington problem. This loss of trust in the fbi and at the same time when we have a loss of trust in the church, at the same time that we have a loss in trust in congress, its not a washington problem. Its a National Problem that is ripping the fabric of our country. And so when trump says this and when Lindsey Graham says it, we have to push back. We cant just say, oh, its washington. Its not just washington. Were losing something in our country. And a good president , i dont care if its george bush, barack obama, they build up the institutions that are under threat. They dont win at all costs. They say, whats the right thing to do long term for the good of the country. Matt, one second, this is an interesting conversation were witnessing on the screen. Again, were minutes away from the hearing getting gavelled back into order. Sheldon whitehouse on the right, the democrat from the state of rhode island, is having we would love to have a microphone on this, is having a spirited conversation with Lindsey Graham, the new chairman of the Judiciary Committee on the left. Whitehouse, a former u. S. Attorney himself, is an aggressive questioner and he will again start off the next half of this hearing. Matt, go ahead. I think youre right, its a very interesting conversation. Hes about to be up, and he has signaled to bill barr what he plans to ask him about. He had a private meeting with him, he sent him a letter saying hes going to press him very much on the disposition of the Mueller Investigation when its done. And i suspect what you see Lindsey Graham is giving him a little bit of preemptive pushback and a little sign of how hes going to exercise his discretion as chair. One thing about the republicans, they have a much more capable chairman now. The Lindsey Graham that you saw at the kavanaugh hearing, he was completely able to hijack the hearing when the witness got in trouble, thats what you saw at the beginning of this hearing. There are real concerns about this nominee and some of his actions. You saw chairman graham try to kick off the hearing by a little bit hijacking the hearing and instead attacking someone else. It wasnt a witness against the nominee at this point. It was the fbi. And as cynthia and neal both point out, it was a very cynical move that along with the president s delegitimatezation of the institution, it will have long term ramifications and impacts on this country. What you saw was a sin scall at a bit a cynical and strategic way to redirect attention. Theyre about to gavel back in. The hearing will come to order. And i recognize senator whitehouse. Thank you, mr. Barr. Thank you, mr. Chairman. This is my first chance at a Committee Hearing to congratulate you on taking the gavel here. We worked well together when you were chairman of the crime and terrorism subcommittee and i hope that that will continue here. Mr. Barr, welcome. Did you make it a condition of taking this job that Rod Rosenstein had to go . Just to be clear so were not bandying words here, did you request or signal or otherwise communicate in any way that you wanted Rod Rosenstein to go . No. The president said that the decision on the deputy was mine, anything i wanted to do on the deputy. So we will find no william barr fingerprints on rosensteins departure . No. Rod and i have been talking about his plans. He told me that he viewed it as a twoyear stint, and would like to use, if im confirmed, my coming in as an occasion to leave. But we talked about the need for a transition. And i asked him if he would stay for a while. And he said he would. And so as of right now, i would say theres no he has no concrete plans, i have no concrete plans in terms of his departure. Were going to sort of play it by ear and see what makes sense. And you have not undertaken to run him out in any way . Absolutely not. That leaves an opening at the dag position, whenever you work this out. Can you tell us, since attorneys general are very often defined by the immediate appointments around them, chief of staff, dag, criminal chief, what are the characteristics and qualifications that you will seek as you fill particularly that position but all three that i mentioned . Im sorry. The deputy and what was the other one . Chief of staff and criminal chief. There is already a criminal chief. I know, yes. Theres already a Deputy Attorney general, but hes leaving. Well, for a deputy i would like someone who is a really good manager and who has had Good Management experience running government programs. And i want a first rate lawyer and someone whose judgment i feel comfortable in. Experienced in the department . Not necessarily. But experience in government, at a high level. When we met i gave you a letter that you have seen, just so none of these questions would be a surprise, so i hope i