It is 12 00 in new york. Were following what has already been a dramatic day of testimony on capitol hill from two key witnesses, former nsc Senior Adviser fiona hill and current u. S. Diplomat david holmes, both witnesses raising alarms today about the conduct they witnessed between the Trump Administration and ukraine, namely the conditioning of both military aid and a white house meeting on a commitment from the ukrainians into those investigations designed to hurt the bidens, a Smear Campaign against Ukraine AmbassadorMarie Yovanovitch who was apparently standing in the way. The conduct of both of todays witness witnesses, they believed lives could be jeopardized in ukraine. Here is some of the dramatic testimony of fiona hill and david holmes. The barrage of allegations
directed against ambassador yovanovitch, a career ambassador, is unlike anything i have seen in my professional career. I heard ambassador sondland say to the president , yes, he was in ukraine, and went on to say that president zelensky, quote, loves your ass. I then heard President Trump ask, so hes going to do the investigation . Ambassador sondland replied that hes going to do it. I asked ambassador sondland that it was true that the president did not give an expletive about ukraine. Ambassador sondland agreed that the president did not an expletive about ukraine. I asked why not. Ambassador sondland stated that the president only cares about big stuff. I noted there was big stuff going on in ukraine, like a war with russia. And ambassador sondland replied that he meant big stuff that benefits the president , like the Biden Investigation that giuliani was pushing. We advised our ukrainian counterparts to follow the rule
of law. This was a demand that president zelensky personally commit on a Cable News Channel to a political investigation of President Trumps political rival. Some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia did not conduct a campaign against our country and that perhaps somehow, for some reason, ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russia Security Services themselves. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified. Joining us, nbcs chief Foreign Affairs correspondent, host of Msnbcs Andrea Mitchell reports, Andrea Mitchell. Msnbc chief Legal Correspondent and host of the beat, ari melber. Andrew weissmann, former head of the Fraud Section at the department of justice, now an msnbc legal analyst. And former democratic senator from missouri and current msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. Were also still joined by former u. S. Ambassador to
russia, ambassador michael mcfaul, who, lucky for us, is also an msnbc International Affairs analyst. I will start with you. Reset what we have seen today, for anyone who missed this dramatic Opening Statement, a complete indictment from fiona hill of the Conspiracy Theories and those who spread them. To me, right, nicolle . Yes. Its very clear, weve been talking now for days and days about whether there was linkage, a quid pro quo, an if you do this, ill do that kind of relationship between an oval office visit and the investigations of Burisma Slash Biden and this cockamamie, crazy Conspiracy Theory about the ukrainian meddling in the 2016 election. And fiona hill, just sticking to the facts that she knows well, especially fiona hill but also david holmes, made it Crystal Clear that there was, especially
with respect to the oval office visit that was put on offer in return for investigating these two alleged activities. In other words, using the Public Office of the president of the United States, an oval office visit to help President Trumps Reelection Chances in 2020. It was clear for a long time, it became even clearer today. Andrea, ambassador mcfaul, this is a sign of how long ambassador mcfaul and i have been on television. At first they were debunked theories, now their cockamamie, and thats right. Sorry about that word. But thats right, theyre whackadoo. Im sure there are even people at fox news who are uncomfortable spreading debunked theories. I think in the cloud somewhere, there isnt a piece of hardware floating around, for those still looking for it. The idea that she is so faithful to the rule of law, to americanNational Security ideals, and to the truth, that she used her open statement to chastise those who are spreading blatant lies that benefit putin. It is the president of the United States, in person, on television, on twitter, who is spreading that cockamamie theory. Which he seems just absolutely gripped by, according to all the prior testimony, going back to early last spring, certainly by may, certainly by the recall of ambassador yovanovitch. And for the president to be used by Russian Military intelligence, by Vladimir Putin this way, is so appalling, there should be a Counterintelligence Investigation as to how this got spread, if there isnt already, because thats interesting. I mean, andrea, and weve been revisiting the intersections between what the Mueller Investigation looked at, there was some of the Collateral Damage from the president s efforts to obstruct these investigations into russian
meddling, especially when they sought to examine his campaign. There was one into whether or not the president might be working to benefit russia. And whether or not, you know, there was a lot in that report which never reached any conclusion for the obvious reason of the way that the president is immune from prosecution. But certainly there was indictment of those russian gru and Military Intelligence officials, 13 officials. Those indictments are Still Standing, outstanding, theyll never arrest those people, presumably. But the fact is this even preceded 2016 in terms of russias operations. There were Counterintelligence Investigations here into what russia was doing, not even knowing who the candidates would be in 2016. So this was just part of their disruption operation. There were two people arrested who came into the United States, according to Chuck Rosenberg who has said this publicly, there
were two russians arrested because they were trying to interfere with u. S. Elections. This testimony is so powerful because of its specificity. If they are going to try to they obviously are, the republicans are going to try to go after her, shes going to come back strong with how damaging this is. Her warning is we have to protect that 2020 election. Shes a former Intelligence Official on russia. And that is her oath to the United States, that is her career. She wants to protect the u. S. Election in 2020, that it does not happen again. She says its already under way. That could not have been a more clear and present warning of imminent danger to National Security. Im sure you have it in front of you, i imagine youre prepared like you always prepare for trial. I would like to look again at what is the transcript. There is evidence, and its been reported that Donald Trumps mind had been poisoned. And it seemed her testimony today in indicting theConspiracy Theories was harkening break to what she was hearing in communications from the president , where it says shes going to go through some things but Marie Yovanovitch. Those were Conspiracy Theories about yovanovitch being on the wrong side. She was on the right sigde on corruption if you are against it. If you are following u. S. Stated policy and the policy of the new president , zelensky, youre against corruption, as was yovanovitch. There is so much evidence that the white house has put into the public record. Right. The white house, by putting giuliani in charge of what became the regular channel of u. S. ukrainian regulations, was basically cosigning onto rudy what was your word, ambassador cockamamie theories. It was a window this morning into what the professionals had to deal with, a president whose mind had been poisoned on ukraine and his right hand guy was more of a court jester ofConspiracy Theories than a serious policy or legal person in Rudy Giuliani. Thats exactly right. As you mentioned, i have my Investigation Binder which is swelling with evidence and testimony, what mr. Weissman and mr. Rosenberg and others keep in their mind, i have to write it down. They have more experience than i do. But yeah, we keep the call notes handy because remember the question of, oh, will there be tapes. Lordy, i hope there are tapes. When you deal with the Foreign Policy process, there are, as andrew was explaining earlier, very careful notes done through the normal process. And this now declassified by order of the president , september 24th, includes all of that, with the president , as you say, saying, i want you to talk to rudy and my Attorney General. Wow. If you could speak to them, that would be great. The former ambassador, the woman, quote, was bad news, the people she was dealing with, bad news. The other thing, much talk about bide ens son, biden stopped the prosecution, quote, a lot of people want to find out about
that, whatever you can do with the Attorney General of the United States would be great. Biden wednesday around bragging, it goes on. He comes back to it later in the same call notes, mr. Giuliani will give you a call, ill also have Attorney General barr call, we will get to the bottom of it. Added to this very incriminating information, as you say, is the testimony of the people who were involved, at the top, in the middle, and even now in kiev, the people who happen to be in a restaurant, not the number one official, and they all say the same thing. The condition of money that was so desperately needed, thats how extortion works, to get the bribe, the campaign help. When they got busted, they ran around and said things that have now been basically blown up by their own aides who are still, some of them, employed by the Trump Administration. The other thing that hangs over all this, ill say briefly, some people ask, how did someone like donald trump get this far . If you look at the way hes been
in business, the bankruptcbankr the troubles hes had in his campaign. Is he getting this far by cheating . Does he habitually cheat, is he cheating in ways that are illegal or impeachable . This is the disorder of my mind, we had a guy on who wrote a book about how he cheats at golf. Cheating is cheating. The behavior of cheating doesnt really pick and choose between cheating in business. Cheating at golf, not impeachable. Yes. Going out on a limb. Briefly, david holmes testimony today about that phone call, overheard phone call, the republicans presumably this afternoon will try to undermine that but that links the president directly to sondland and to the orders to go after biden. It also, in terms of the other sort of court, in terms of court of public opinion, you can hear sondland and trump having that conversation. It makes us cringe, it makes the prudish side of me cringe, he
loves your bleep, ew. Who would make that up . Its very bleepable. If you remember the complaints about Hillary Clinton using an email server, im certainly not justifying that, but here you have a call on a cellphone, lots of discussions about sending emails and texts, but this is one where youve heard from everyone who is in ukraine, you worry about everything being tapped. So one of the interesting things going through my mind is, why Isnt The President and ambassador sondland worried about the fact that you know that call is going to be monitored by the russians. Right. Why would you i mean, youre there asking for an investigation into the bidens. Do you care about the russians
having it . Normally what you would worry about is, as sally yates said when she was dealing with the flynn situation, you worry about kompromat, which is that the russians now have leverage over you because they know something thats not true. Why werent the president and ambassador sondland worried about the fact that the russians would undoubtedly in ukraine be able to hear this conversation . What are the scenarios, why wouldnt they be . If your thinking is i dont care because the russians will be siding with me in the 2020 election, then youre all on the same team. Thats right. And that was one of the pieces of testimony reintroduced by these witnesses. And we heard it from george kent last wednesday. We heard the timeline was detailed again, between the first call to congratulate president zelensky, there are known conversations, just that we know about, between Vladimir Putin and his ally. Is there any question in your mind about whether they were steering him against zelensky . I think they knew that russia was listening. I dont know if trump thinks about it, i dont give much credence to his thought process, but im sure that clearly anybody who is speaking on a cellphone, i think russia owns the Mobile Phone Companies in the ukraine. So not only are they listening, they have the ability to listen and transcribe. Its probably recorded somewhere. This is a little far afield, but its related. Bob barr are running all over the world. Absolutely. Trying to dig up dirt on our own Intelligence Community, which is populated, as you all well know, with mostly veterans and active military. He is doing things, going to australia and going to european
nations. Italy. And this is the Attorney General of the United States is doing this. What is your view about where this is right now with your knowledge of how justice works, i know hes got this special u. S. Aide hes appointed to handle this. What is going on with that, what did they hope to prove here, that our Intelligence Community was on the take . So first, there is enormous damage to the Intelligence Community, to have theres such a trusted relationship between our Intelligence Community and what is called the five is, which is britain, new zealand, canada, australia. People really operate together and view themselves as a collective mission, it can be about terrorism, it can be about a whole variety of issues. And theres enormous
cooperation. The idea that the Attorney General would be showing up in a five is country to say what kind of dirt do you have on my own Intelligence Community is the kind of thing, having been at the fbi, is unthinkable and its of such damage to the relationship, that theres such distrust of the Intelligence Community. And one thing thats just so wonderful for the American Public to see in the last two weeks, and again, leaving aside the substance of the impeachment, is your seeing career people, and its really useful, this is supposed to be the deep state, hallelujah. These are wonderful, wonderful public servants. Let me bring in im sorry. I was just going to say to claires point, when the president announced that investigation, he gave Attorney General barr access to the deepest secrets, ordering the director of National Intelligence to declassify sources, the most secret sources. That sent a shiver, and it was
shortly after that that dan coats resigned. It is a very damaging process. Let me bring into our Conversation Author and president ial historian, our friend jon meacham. Youve been listening to some of this. If a theme runs through it, its the Wrecking Ball that donald trump is, we knew to the rule of law and Law Enforcement agencies, but now it would appear in plain public testimony to sort of the Heart And Soul of the State Department and our diplomatic efforts around the world. Your thoughts, jon . I think this has been a good week or so for