I think you need to sit down and talk to somebody about that. Because the more we push these people away, the closer they come to crossing a line. This is an msnbc special series. All across america, support for White Nationalism is growing. And violence against yous is je skyrocketing. Im trying to fight back. Were not born to hate. Ideology isnt even what is leading people to these movements. I know this is true. Because i spent eight years of my life in americas first neonazi skinhead organization. But ive spent the last 20 years warning the public. Christian picciolini joins me now. Advising Law Enforcement and helping People Disengage from hate groups. I want to help people. I feel like thats my only redemption. Ive worked on deradicalizing more than 300 individuals. But i cant win this war alone. What i see happening is a lot of violence coming. And im struggling, can somebody like that change . Is he even redeemable . Hate can be broken. When former extremists like me speak out against it. This is an education into neohassism, from the clothing to the music to video games. Some kid could get this and walk
into the next synagogue. Tell me that is something you dont condone. Some people that are in it are strictly in it because of the hate. Other people are in it for the politics, the nationalism, the family aspect. Everybody is different. You know, now as im getting away from everything, its a whole new life in a lot of ways. Everything i knew, all the people that i knew. How hard is it . Its very, very difficult. Im sitting across from commander jeff scoop. Until recently, he was the leader of the nationalist socialist movement. The largest neonazi organization in the country. On march 1, 2019, jeff stepped
down from his position, but he hasnt publicly denounced white se peop su peoppremac supremacy. Are you ready to tell them you denounce it now . Yes. Jeff is 45 years old. For over two decades, hes been an influential figure in this hateful movement. The only way to tell the flow is to cut the head off the snake. Jeff scoop is the head of the snake. If he can find a way to disengage, it will have a massive impact on other people wanting ing ting to leave, as. But can someone like this really change . How many people did you recruit that ended up dead, in prison, ruined their lives, probably if they had never met you would have had a normal, typical life . I know a lot of people that its ruined their lives. Im still processing through a lot of that. Dont you feel responsible for furthering the violence of that cause . Thank you for checking on us. This is only my second time meeting with jeff. Im still trying to figure out if hes real. Dont we have a responsibility of the ideas we put out into the world . Theres so many things i want to say, so im probably going to be all over the place. Thats hrt. Were here to talk about these things. Its confusing time. Ive been through it. I feel in a lot of ways i have wasted my life. White power jeff reminds me a lot of myself. Were both the same age and mid westerners who embraced the White Power Movement when we were teenagers. But i turned my back on hate when i was 22, while jeff continued to rise through the ranks, taking control of the National Socialist movement when he was just 21. Hold your hand forward and salute. This is an offshoot of the American Nazi Party of the 1960s. The group stages provocative rallies across the country known for flaunting swastikas, wearing Nazi Yuniforms and glorifying hitrer. Under jeff, membership exploded, Recruiting Kids as young as 14. In 2011, jeff shared the official agenda on 60 minutes. His commitment to hate was unak big wous. Our ideal american would be all white. And everybody else has to leave, peacefully or by force. Jeff is being sued for his
role in the 2017 unite the white rally. His lawyers claim he lawfully attended a political event. But the suit accuses him of conspiracy to commit violence. We will not allow our nation to become brown. Jeffs been on my radar for 20 years. So when i began to hear from sources that he wanted out of the movement, i didnt something i almost never do. I reached out to him. Until today, its been unclear whats motivating his desire to leave. What is i see happening is a lot of violence coming. From the movement, you think its going to get worse . Oh, absolutely. What would you say to these young people who you think, you know, are ramping up for more violence . Thats what i want to do now. Because i know i can use my influence. So you want to do what im
doing, help People Disengage. Yes. I cant contain this. Things like the synagogue shootings, mosque shootings, church shootings. I understand the psychology behind it, what is driving people to that. Tell me for real, why they shouldnt do it. Because you should not kill innocent people, period it doesnt matter what color, what nationality, what religion, any of that sort of thing. Thats not the answer. I know better than anyone that change doesnt happen overnight. Its a difficult, sometimes dangerous road. Once jeff goes public, hell be branded a race traitor, and could face retaliation. Jeff is a father of five. He wants to keep a low profile and his family safe. Instead of meeting at his home, we pick up our conversation in
that parking garage. Are you sorry for leading a group that, frankly scared the [ bleep ] out of a lot of people . Do you feel any remorse . You have to understand, im still working through a lot of the processes. Obviously, theres a lot of things i regret doing. Im so used to being the commander of the National Socialist movement and giving speeches and saying those things. So this is very difficult. Like if im lying, anybody can see right through it, because its just not in my nature to lie. Did 6 million jews die in the holocaust . Whoa because thats a lie i spread for eight years that they didnt die. That the holocaust didnt happen. Im still i mean tell me the truth. If youre struggling, this is something were going to need to work on. Im having a wow. I still have some issues with the jewish question. Letting go of years of lies and misinformation, is sometimes the hardest part of disengaging from extremism. Even today, a study showed one out of three americans has doubts that 6 million jews died in the holocaust. But i know from experience that these lies are learned, and its possible, with time, to unlearn them. Thats probably going to be one of the hardest things. Ive met jews that are good,
decent people. Im just a little more skeptical about it. And thats being straight up honest. Thats going to make me sound like a monster. Its going to make you sound like a person going through transformation and is still not there. Jeff says he wants to leave hate behind, and i want to believe him. But this is not going to be easy. E easy ly. Liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Nice. But, uh. Whats up with your. Partner . Not again. Limu thats your reflection. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty
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reporting nearly 2,000 incidents last year. But the past decade has seen an unprecedented decade in attacks. One of the first in this recent wave took place on june 10th, 2009 when an 88yearold man named James Von Brunn made his way into washington, d. C. He was a decorated world war ii veteran, but also a lifelong antisemite and white supremist. He walked into the United StatesHolocaust War Museum and opened fire. A gunman opened fire inside the Holocaust Museum in washington. Von brunn killed a security officer, before being shot in the face and apprehended. Thats why i have come here, to meet a broken man. 43yearold eric von brunn, jamess only son, who reached out to me on twitter. This is an unusual case even for me. Because eric was never part of the White Power Movement. And, yet, his whole life has been defined by it. First memory i have of my father would be the letters i received from him of this war he was fighting. And i always imagined him as a Hans Solo Kind of figure. We were fighting the corrupt, evil regime, war of the rebellion. For most of his childhood,
eric was told his father was far away fighting a war until his mother told him the truth. I said, you know, people do bad things. Your father did something that was pretty bad. And he went to jail for it. And thats where he is right now, not at war. Hes in jail. Can you tell me what your relationship was like . I loved him to death. He was my john wayne. He looked like john wayne. But pat tells me that over time that love was poisoned by hate. Her husbands obsession with bigotry and antisemitism spiralled out of control. He was so engrossed in it. He was eaten alive like a cancer. And then eric was born and eric was to be the prince. So he wanted to groom eric to be his legacy. Yes, yes. Neither pat nor eric can tell me why james became infected with white supremacist ideology. He was College Educated and a successful ad executive. But he was also a heavy drinker and prone to violence. And in December Of 1981 when eric was just four, his father walked into the Federal Reserve in washington, d. C. , with a revolver and a sawedoff shotgun intent on taking hostages to expose what he believed a jewish conspiracy to control the nations economy. He didnt see his son again until he was released from prison. Eric was 12 years old. And thats when the indoctrination wrapped up. What did your dad get you to believe . That whites were superior. That the holocaust never happened. I knew what he was saying was wrong, but i had to play that
game of, please teach me more because i felt that if i accepted what he believed he would love me. I said, okay, dad, lets go to a movie. It was a jam packed theater. Opening credits rolled. And every time a producers name would pop up, he would stand up and shout, jew jew that guy is a jew the whole theater just turned around and looked at me. Im just like this. I wanted a father. But he wanted a disciple. Eric shows me the manifesto his father left behind. A nearly 400page document warning the world of the threat he believed that was posed by blacks, liberals, and jews. The protocols of the elders of zion. This was my homework. The protocols of the elders
of zion was a fraudulent document released in 1903 by the russian czar. This was a way to demonize the jews, but putting out this document that claimed a secret group of powerful jews were conspireing to control the finances of the world and the entertainment and the media and things like that. Through the roaring 20s and the crash that followed, the protocols were held up as proof that economic suffering was caused by a jewish conspiracy. Half a million copies for printed by henry ford, complimentary with every car sold. Eric tells me he defied his fathers indoctrination and endured years of emotional and physical abuse. This is it, right . Yes, sir. But a lifetime of resistance took its toll. Is this where you took drugs . Yeah. I had a 1,600 a month habit. Where would you find the money for that . Stealing, selling, repeat diving, that kind of stuff. You said you had squatters in here . Yeah. Wow. You cant even see the garage. For nearly a decade, eric has struggled with ptsd, anxiety and addiction. The legacy of his fathers effort to bend him to his will. And he tells me that as james grew older, his hate grew more extreme. He even posted his racist manifesto online for all the world to see. Eric didnt know where to turn. So he moved james in with him to get a closer watch. I was pretty much keeping him in a cage. One day i took him to lunch at applebys. Out of nowhere, he says, its time for you to prove yourself. I need you to go to washington, d. C. , with a bomb and martyr yourself for our cause. You father wanted his son to be a Suicide Bomber . Yeah. I was like, youve got to be [ bleep ] kidding me. After 20 plus years you want me to kill myself because you think ill be a good martyr for your cause . No. Were done. Even though you hated this man, you felt contempt for him and he abused you, this was somebody that you still went out of your way to protect. Well, i was protecting others from him. But, you know, he would frequently say, son, listen, im going out with my boots on and there is nothing you can do to stop that. He was going to kill somebody or he was going to die trying. Banjo . man go home. woman banjo sorry, it wont happen again. Come on, lets go home. After 10 years, weve covered a lot of miles. Good thing i got a subaru. avo love is out there. Find it in a subaru crosstrek. avo get 0 during the subaru a lot to love event. I switched to geico and saved hundreds. Thats a win. But its not the only reason i switched. Geicos a company i can trust, with over 75 years of great savings and service. Now thats a winwin. Switch to geico. Its a winwin. I come facetoface with a lot of behinds. So i know theres a big need
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tells me his father plied him with alcohol and played on their tortured relationship. He said, look, youre kicking me out. Youre going to florida. Youre starting your new life. Thats great. But just give me my dads. 22. Thats all im asking for. James was referring to a family heirloom, a century old rifle passed down to him from his father. I was drunk, and i was tired. After 20 years, i was tired. And i said fine, just take it. And it was the worst mistake of my life. The gun erik handed his father was the same one james used to commit murder immediately after the museum shooting, federal agents located eric and his mother 800 miles from the scene of the crime. It was just surreal, you know. The secret Service Coming in asking me if i had any intentions against president
obama. Im like, are you kidding . The investigation cleared eric and pat, while james was charged with the first degree murder of Special OfficerSteven Tyrone Johns who left behind a 10yearold son. Do you miss your daddy a lot . Yeah. At the time, eric granted only one interview with diane sawyer on good morning america. I want to start with this little boy and the fact you said you wish it had been your father who died and not his. The wrong man died that day, yes. Seven months af