The latest Political Developments of the day and interviews with top newsmakers are featured. Can i ask you, how could he feel as though he has nothing to do with Paul Manafort . A man hes known for 30 years, has been in business with 30 years, political consultant chairman of his campaign, lived in trump tower, how can he feel that way . He feels the charges under review right now in this case have nothing to do with the Trump Campaign of 2016, with the element of collusion. He believes he is innocent, trump does. And he thinks that this is that mueller is going after manafort so aggressively, specifically to try to embarrass the president , to try to take him down, to try to harm his presidency and that the media is complicit, that were going along with it and it bothers him. It has him really angry and hes been telling that to his confidants, theyve been of course telling that to us reporters. I know there is a danger in focusing too much on logic when it comes to donald trump. But if Paul Manaforts crimes have nothing do with donald trump, why would he be bothered about the fact Paul Manafort is being prosecuted for crimes that
the Michael Cohen matter referred up to the Southern District in new york. Meanwhile, Paul Manafort has a case that bob mueller wanted to handle on his own. I wanted to read you something from an aaron blake column in the Washington Post and get you to comment about it. Cohen like manafort is widely viewed as someone would could flip on trump and is under investigation for things apparently unrelated to the campaign. The obvious difference was manafort was a key figure in the campaign and had existing ties to russian interests that could conceivably be involved in the cases future. While cohen may know derogatory things about trump, manafort may be viewed as a Potential Collusion witness. So, joyce, give me a read on that. Its possible that thats the correct take. Manafort could be far more central to collusion between the campaign and russia than the bank fraud and Tax Fraud Prosecution hes currently going through would suggest. In other words, mueller could have indicted the leading edge perhaps to convince manafort to
cooperate with him down the road. But manafort might still offer a great deal of help to mueller discussing, for instance, the history of financial back and forth between trump and russia. He can talk, of course, about that important june 2016 meeting in trump tower where the campaign met with russia. He can talk about meetings in the seychelles. He may even be able to shed some light on this change in the Republican Party platform as it regarded ukraine. So, he can be very central on the topic of collusion. There is, of course, a much more benign possibility here, which is simply that mueller has limited resources. He and his Team Trust Prosecutors in the Southern District of new york. There are strong relationships there and they may be using the resources in that office to amplify what they have the capacity to do internally in the special counsels office. Joyce, i want to ask you a question, sort of a question i just asked phil, but from your perspective as you watched again, were at the end of the week, its friday, weve seen
this first week of the manafort trial is almost over. If youre donald trump and youre Donald Trumps lawyer and youre watching whats played out in that courtroom over the course of this week with Paul Manafort, are you worried as Donald Trumps lawyer . A, are you worried, and b, if youre worried, what are the things youve seen this week that as Donald Trumps lawyer you would be most concerned about . Youve got to be deeply worried. Like barb says, its a paper case and you cant crossexamine paper. It says what it says. Its evidence that the jury will have back with them in the jury room when they deliberate. The other problem that emerges for manafort from this testimony is now a string of Accountant Wets who say he either concealed his foreign accounts from them or they knew about accounts and helped him doctor his paperwork so it looks as though both on the Tax Fraud Side and the bank fraud side of this investigation, he gets convicted. And then trump has to be worried about what happens next. Does manafort stay true, hoping he might get a pardon . Or does he reach a point where he decides its in his best interests and his familys best interests for him to offer some form of cooperation to mueller. And then, john, there is still an even more attenuated situation here, which is that if manafort is convicted, even if he doesnt want to cooperate with mueller, mueller could then compel his testimony. He could take him into the grand jury and compel him to testify because he no longer has any criminal exposure. Ive done that before with witnesses. Its never great. Youd always rather have them cooperating voluntarily, but its certainly a possibility here. Jill winebanks, i want to ask you about two characters who are some of the most colorful characters in this drama, roger stone and manhattan madam, Kristen Davis who worked for stone a period of time and has met with muellers team. Roger stone put out a statement, very similar to ones hes put
out in the past. Kristen davis is a long time friend and associate of mine. Im the godfather to her son. She knows anything about the 2016 election which was the subject of this probe. I am confident she will testify truthfully if called upon to do so. Tell me, jill, as you look at the mueller at mueller hes continuing to behave to roger stone, not bringing in roger stone to this point, bringing in people before the grand jury or in to meet with ms. Prosecutors. Is roger stone destined to be indicted . It certainly looks like roger stone is a target, not just a person of interest. And i think that all of the facts that youve related show that that is why he has nt been called in yet. He is probably the person named in the Hacking Indictment against the russians as the u. S. Person because we know that hes the one who was in touch with gucifer 2. So that would suggest that he has more knowledge about the hacking and could be a key figure in the collusion part of the case. Hes also, of course, as you know, been testifying today on air about the choices of manafort which is an amusing thing. He doesnt approve of his choice of clothing. And the only time i ever met roger stone, the first thing he said to me, i cant believe they booked me on two panels without enough time to change cloekts. Im going to have to wear the same suit twice. So i can understand why hes commenting on Paul Manaforts wardrobe choices. Roger is a bit of a dandy, thats for sure. I want to get to the question with all three of you of our lawyers here on the panel and ill come back to phil at the end. I want to talk a little about the question weve been talking about the last couple days which is the question of been talking about it for months frankly, the question of the interview and whether or not its going to happen. Nbc news is reporting that basically trumps team is starting to realize there is no way he might he may be forced to answer bob muellers questions about collusion. The legal team facing the reality he might struggle to fight a subpoena over collusion. He can fight a subpoena over obstruction of justice, stuff hes done as president but he wouldnt be able to fight a subpoena over the question of collusion. I ended with you, jill, i want to stay with you. Is it your sense that thats basically the president s team, if they are coming to that conclusion, that theyre right to come to that conclusion . There might be a fight on a subpoena over obstruction, but they would lose a fight over a subpoena on collusion, so therefore theyre sort of cornered on that part of the investigation . I think they would lose on both issues. I think that the watergate Nixon Supreme Court decision which says you can subpoena a president for documents would equally hold to you could subpoena the president for testimony. So i think they would lose on both issues. There is a crime exception to any Executive Privilege he might claim, so i dont think hes going to win on that. But i also may be the only one who thinks that his testimony is, first of all, wouldnt be credible because look at how many lies he tells. Hes up to, what, 16 a day, it was at 6 a day. Why would we believe his testimony . And two, i think that he has been colluding and im sorry, i just used the wordy said id never use. Hes been conspiring with the russians and he has been obstructing justice from the very beginning in public, in plain sight. And so i dont think you need to question him about what his intent was to show his corrupt intent. His corrupt intent is already blatantly clear to me. And so i dont think its all that important that if i were Robert Mueller, im not sure id be wasting my time on a Supreme Court appeal of whether i could subpoena him or not. And its clear that his lawyers have given him bad advice on a
number of occasions and are just wasting time going back and forth. Eight months of negotiating. Id say a large number of occasions. Joyce, i think you believe that the president might be on slightly firmer Ground Fighting a subpoena over obstruction than he would be fighting a subpoena over collusion. Explain. Well, im not entirely sure that thats true, john, but what the dilemma that the president faces here is if he complies with the subpoena, he will undoubtedly have to relay some facts that would tend to incriminate him. We know that from what weve seen in the public domain. And so his lawyers will be faced with having him appear to testify and then asserting his 5th amendment privilege to avoid testifying, to avoid incriminating himself. And although congress ill just say has not had the stiffest of spines when it comes to disciplining this president so far. I think it would be difficult for them in light of a president
asserting his 5th amendment right to avoid testifying because he believes his answers would incriminate him in a criminal case. It would be very hard for congress to ignore that. So, in many ways, mueller wins simply by issuing the subpoena and forcing the president to assert the 5th amendment whether he goes through litigation over the ultimate question here, which remains unanswered, can you require a sitting president to testify pursuant to subpoena. Barbara, given the extant facts and the brilliant analysis of your two colleagues here, what is the best play for the president with respect to this question, with respect to how to handle this end game now, what we think is the end game of the matter of whether or not hes going to sit with bob mueller and on what elements of the investigation he might want to try to restrict it to . Whats your play if youre advising donald trump at this point . I would tell donald trump you dont really have to testify until you get that subpoena. And so i think that they are
telling one story to the public, that he really wants to testify and the lawyers arent working it out, but that the truth is he doesnt want to testify in front of a grand jury and he doesnt want to sit down with Robert Mueller for an informal interview. But he can continue the negotiation up until even after he receives that subpoena. Even after he receives the subpoena, he could still workout an informal agreement for an interview. I think hes going to play chicken with Robert Mueller. This is really President Trumps opportunity to tell his side of the story and so rather than engage in litigation, it may very well be that Robert Mueller stands down before he serves his subpoena. I think donald trump is going to play the waiting game until that happens. One word answers, does donald trump really want to do this interview . Yes. Is donald trump going to do this interview . Potentially yes. Wow. Okay youre outside the conventional wisdom on this. He i have to let these wonderful women go, the amazing barbara mcquade, Astonishing Joyce Vance and remarkable jill winebanks. When we come back so much for that show of force. It didnt take donald trump very long to stop on the message from his top officials sending the alarm on the russia threat why his latest rant about the socalled russia hoax might be one of his most unnerving so far. Also ahead, trumps interesting thats a euphemism, interesting relationship with the truth took an even more bizarre turn last night. Well show you the latest in the increasing pace of lies coming from this president. Plus the attacks on the press. Threats of government shutdown. Is this really Donald Trumps midterm strategy . Well talk about that in a second. Hundred roads named park in the u. S. Its americas most popular street name. But Allstate Agents know thats where the similarity stops. If youre on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the Washoe Zephyr could damage your siding. And thats very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. But no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local Allstate Agents knows yours. Now that you know the truth, are you in good hands . Treating cancer isnt one thing we do. Its the only thing we do. Expert medicine works here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com Cancer Treatment centers of america. Appointments available now. With the new Chase Ink Business unlimited card i get unlimited 1. 5 cash back. Its so simple, i dont even have to think about it. So i think about the details. Fine, i obsess over the details. Introducing Chase Ink Business unlimited with unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase. Are you ready to take your then you need xfinity xfi. . A more powerful way to stay connected. It gives you super fast speeds for all your devices, provides the most Wifi Coverage for your home, and lets you control your network with the xfi app. Its the ultimate wifi experience. Xfinity xfi, simple, easy, awesome. In helsinki, i had a great meeting with putin. We discussed everything. I had a great meeting. I had a great meeting. We got along really well. By the way, thats a good thing, not a bad thing. Thats a really good thing. Now were being hindered by the russian hoax. It its a hoax, okay. Ill tell you what. They wanted know walk up heres a podium here. They wanted me to walk up like this, son of a that was President Trump doing a little boxing stuff and saying some stuff about russia last night at his Campaign Rally in pennsylvania. That was his first comment on the subject after five of his top intelligence officials held a pretty much Unprecedented Press Conference yesterday in the White House Briefing room to warn the American People about how dangerous the threat of American Election is to this country. There are no signs last night that donald trump shares his own advisors concerns or supports the russian threat or as
jennifer rubin writes in the Washington Post, no matter how hard coats, wray, bolton and others side step or try to put words in trumps mouth, trump never accepted he got elected with russian help and he is not about to make a personal allout push to stop it in 2018. Joining us now is msnbc News Intelligence and National Security reporter, the great ken dilanian. Here at the table jess mcinto be and editor and msnbc contributor. Phil rucker still at the table. So happy about that. Phil, yesterday theres you got reporting yesterday all over the place. By reporting i mean white house sources telling reporters, the president wanted these five guys out here. He instructed them he wanted them to come out. We talked about it yesterday. Ever since on the because is his behavior and gut instivgt. Theres no way he sent those people out. They went out as an act of patriotism. Donald trump was annoyed by that, he doesnt believe that. Thats what everyones gut tells them. His performance last night seems to back that up. Whats the real deal . If he wanted them to come out there here and deliver that warning to the American People if he thought it was important for the American People to hear, he would have delivered it himself. He would have tweeted thisometh, he could have talked about it at his rally when he was talking extensively about President Putin and what he called the russia hoax, but he never got into the actual threat facing the Midterm Elections here which is a serious enough Security Matter for his National Security team to do that rare joint appearance in the briefing room. I want to play a little sound yesterday from the thing. We played it a lot yesterday. It was an extraordinary thing to see these five up there saying what they had to say. Lets play it and hear what they had to say about 2016 versus 2018 and