To investigate what happened in the past and apply its own laws. No one in the new team had anything to do with anything that may have happened in 2016. They were making Television Shows at the time. Iral i also said it is credible to me that he would have been influenced by financial or personal motives in carrying out duties as Vice President. A different issue is whether some individual ukrainians may have attempted to influence the 2016 election or thought they could buy influence. That is at least plausible given ukraines reputation for corruption. The accusation that he acted independently did not seem credible to me. I connected mayor giuliani and the aide by text lantand later t i phone. They met in person on august 2, 2019. In conversations with me following that meeting which i did not attend, mr. Giuliani said that he had stressed the importance of ukraine conducting investigations into what happened in the past and mr. Yermoc stressed, he said it is their position to conduct investigations as part of this process anyway. Mr. Giuliani said he believed ukrainian president needed to make a statement about fighting corruption and that he had discussed this with mr. Yermoc, i said i didnt think this would abe problem since that is the governments position anyway. I followed up and he said they would be prepared to make a statement. There was no mention of Vice President biden. Rather, in Referencing Burisma in the 2016 election
interference, it is clear he was only talking about whether any ukrainians acted inappropriately. At this time, i was focused on our goal of getting president ze zelenskyy and President Trump to each other. I was seeking to solve the problem i saw when we met with President Trump in the oval office on may 23rd. As a professional diplomat, i was comfortable exploring whether there was a statement ukraine could make about its own intentions to investigate possible corruption that would be helpful in convince plg giuliani could con take to mr. Trump a positive assessment of the new leadership in ukraine. On august 16th, he shared a draft with me which i thought looked perfectly reasonable. It did not mention burisma or 2016 elections but was generic. Ambassador sondland and i had a conversation with mr. Giuliani who said in his view in order to
be convincing that this government represented real change in ukraine, the statement should include specific reference to burisma and 2016. Again, there was no mention of Vice President biden in these conversations. Ambassador sondland and i discussed the points and i ended the statement drafted by mr. Yermoc to include the points to see how it looked. I then discussed it further with mr. Yermoc. He said for a number of reasons including the fact that he was still officially the Prosecutor General, that they did not want to mention burisma and 2016 and the idea of putting out a statement were shefld. These are the last conversations i had about this statement which were on or about august 17 to 18. My last contact with mr. Giuliani according to my records is on august 13th until he tried to reach me on September 20th after the Impeachment Inquiry was launched. At this time that, is to say in
the middle of august, i thought the idea of issuing the statement was scrapped. In september, i was surprised to learn that there had been further discussions with ukrainians about president zelenskyy possibly making a statement in aint Swn Intervie Media similar to what we discussed in august. Since these events and since i gave my testimony on october 3rd, a great deal of Additional Information and perspective has come to light. I learned in things that i did not know at the time of the events in question. Fir first, at the time i was connectsing mr. Giuliani and yermac and the statement, i didnt know of any linkage between the hold on Security Assistance and ukraine pursuing investigations. No one had ever said that to me. I never conveyed such a linkage to The Ukrainians. I opposed the hold on Security Assistance and i thought with he could turn it around before the
ukrainians ever knew or became alarmed about it. I did not know the reason for the hold. I viewed it as a u. S. Policy problem we needed to fix internally. I believe The Ukrainians became aware of the hold on august 29 nl and not before. That date is the first time any of them asked me about the hold by forwarding an article that had been pupublished in politi when i spoke to the hold, instead of telling them they need to do something to get the hold released, i told them the opposite. They should not be alarmed. It was an internal u. S. Problem and we were working to get it fixed. I did not know others were conveying a difference message to them around the same time. Sikd second, i didnt know about the strong concerns express bid john bolton to members of the staff regarding the discussion of investigations. I participated in the july 10th
meeting between National Security adviser bolton and then ukrainian chairman of the National Security council. As i remember, the meeting was essential i had over when ambassador sondland made a comment about investigations. I think we all thought it was inappropriate. The meeting concluded. Later on in the war room, i may have been engaged in Side Conversation or had already left the complex because i did not recall further discussion regarding investigations of burisma. Third, i did not understand that others believed that any investigation of Ukrainian CompanyBurisma Which had a history of accusations of corruption was tan amount to investigating Vice President biden. As long been u. S. Policy under multiple administrations to urge ukraine to investigate and fight internal corruption. I was quite comfortable with ukraine making its own statement about its own policy of investigating and fighting
corruption at home. At the one in person meeting i had with mayor giuliani on july 19th, mayor giuliani raised and i rejected the theory that Vice President buys woen have influenced as duties as Vice President by money paid to his season son. I have known mr. Biden for 24 years. He is an honorable man and i hold him in the highest regard. At no time was i aware of or knowingly took part in an effort to urge ukraine to investigate Vice President biden and from the extensive documentation i provided Vice President biden was not a topic of discussion. I was not on the july 25th phone call between President Trump and president zelenskyy and i was not made aware of any reference to Vice President biden or his son by President Trump until the transcript of that call was released on september 25th, 2019. Throughout this time i flrd was an important distinction between burism and biden. I urged The Ukrainians to maintain a zundistinction. I didnt know that they raisedVice President biden with The Ukrainians or inflated ukrainian corruption with investigation of the former Vice President. In retrospect for ukrainians it would have clearly been confusing. In hindsight, i now understand that others saw the idea of investigating possible corruption involving Ukrainian Company as equivalent to investigating biden. I saw them as very different. The former being appropriate and unremarkable, the latter being unacceptable. In retrospect, i should have seen that connection differently and had i done so i would have raise mid own objections. Fourth, much has been made of the term three amigos in reference to secretary of perry, ambassador sondland and myself. I never used that term and frankly krinth when i hear it. The three amigos will always refer to Senator Mccain and lieberman and graham in their effort to support the surge in iraq. I was never aware of any designation by President Trump or anyone else putting
ambassador sonld land or the three of us as a group in charge ukraine poll sichlt i understood it each of us in our own respective official capacities continued to Work Together after our attendance of president zelenskyys inauguration to push for greater u. S. Support for ukraine. Leading the diplomacy around ukraine negotiations and long been my official responsibility but i welcome the added support and influence of a Cabinet Member and our eu ambassador. Fifth, i was not aware that he spoke with President Trump on july 26th and taylor and i were visiting the conflict zone. I believe policies are critical importance and ill be pleased to answer your question. Thank you for your Opening Statement. Ill provide the committee
members the questions conducted by the chairman followed by 4r5 minut 45 minutes of questions. I specify equal time and will proceed infer the fiveminute rule and every member will have a chance to ask questions. I recognize myself or council f counsel for the first round of questions. Ambassador volker, i was going to yield. There are a couple points you made in your Opening Statement that i want to ask about first. First you said that now former Attorney General was not credible. He is the author of a number of allegations against ambassador yovanovitch, a number of allegations that were shared with a number of allegation thats have been repeatedly brought up by my republican colleagues. Why is it that you found mr. Lutsenko not credible and told mr. Giuliani so . Thank you, mr. Chairman, the allegations themselves including those against ambassador yovanovitch did not appear to me to be credible at all. I know her to be an incredibly competent professional. Someone i worked with for many, many years t the suggestions that she was acting in some inappropriate manner were not credible to me. I have known Vice President biden for a long time. Those accusations were not credible. And then separate from that, i also was aware of the political situation in ukraine. We had a situation where the president appeared to not be in a favorable position going into the elections where it was increasingly apparent then candidate zelenskyy was going to win. As is often the case in ukraine, a change in power would mean change in prosecutoral pow irz
and there rests in the past at prosecuting the previous government. I think mr. Lutsenko and i said this to mayor giuliani was interested in preserving his own position. He wanted to avoid being fired by a new government in order to possible prosecution of himself and possibly also this is something in a so by making allegations like this, and making sure that they are reaching u. S. Media. I think mr. That he is trying to make himself appear to be an important and influential player. N. The United States. Ambassador, let me ask you about the allegations against joe biden. That has been a continuing refrain from my colleagues as well. Why was it you found the allegations against joe biden related to his son or burisma not to be believed . Simply because ive known Vice President , former Vice President biden for a long time. I know how he respects his duties of Higher Office and its just not credible to me that a Vice President of the United States is going to do anything and act as he sees best for the national interest. Finally, ambassador, before i turn it over, i was struck by something you said on page eight of your statement which treats in hindsight i realize others saw investigating the Ukrainian Company burisma as equivalent to Vice President biden. I saw it being inappropriate, the lat irbeing unacceptable. In retrospect, you said i should have seen that connection differently and i h. I done so, i would have raised my own objections. What is it now, ambassador, in retrospect that you recognize that you didnt at this time
that lead you to conclude that you would or should have raised the objections . Others did not see the same things as i saw it. As i said, there is a history of corruption in ukraine. Theres a history with the company of burisma. Its been investigated. That is well known. There is a separate allegation about the Vice President acting inappropriatebly. His son was a borard member of this company. But those things i saw completely distinct. What i was doing is trying to thread a need tole to see thing thez can do as part of ukraines own Policy Of Fighting Corruption that help clarify for our president that they are committed to that very effort. Theres a way to thread that
needle. I thought it was an effort to solve a problem. As it turns out, most people didnt consider this distinction. For them, it was synonymous. One of those people that saw it synonymous turns out to be the president of the United States. I take it you didnt know until the call record was released that the president and that call doesnt raise burisma, he asked for an investigation of the bidens. Is that right . That is correct. I take it since you say that you acknowledge that asking for an investigation of the bidens would have been unacceptable and objectionable, that had the president asked you to get ukraine to investigate the bidens you would have told them so. Yes. I would have objected to that, yes, sir. Mr. Goldman . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just one follow up on that, ambassador volker. When you say thread the needle, you mean that you understood the relationship between Vice President bidens son and
burisma but you were trying to separate the two of them in your mind . Is that right . I believe that they were separate. That and this references the conversation i had with mr. Giuliani as well. Where i think the allegations against Vice President biden are self serving and not credible. Separate question is whether it is appropriate for ukraine to investigate possible corruption of ukrainian thats may have tried to corrupt things or buy influence. To me thashgs ve, theyre very things. The former is unacceptable. Understood. You understood the relationship between hunter biden and burisma . I knew he was a board member of the company, yes. Thats why it was so posh to maintain the distinction. Lets focus on the July 25th Call for a moment. And mr. Morrison, july 25th was day number what for you as the Senior Director overseeing
ukraine . I officially took over on the 15th, approximately 10 days. You testified in your position you received an email on the morning of july 25th from ambassador sondland shortly before the call. Is that right . Yes. And i believe in that email ambassador sondland told you that he had briefed President Trump about the advance of the call . Is that right . Yes. And you also testified that ambassador sondland told you on another occasion that he could call the president whenever he wanted. Is that right . Yes. And on july 25th, did you, in fact, make an effort to confirm whether or not the phone call between ambassador sondland and President Trump actually occurred . I did. And did it happen . Yes. On other occasions when he said he spoke with President Trump, did you on some other occasions, did you also seek confirmation of that fact . On some, yes. And on those occasions when you did seek to confirm that they had spoken, what did you find . They had. I want to pull up a text message on the morning of july 25th. Between well, its should be another one. Yeah, sorry. Ambassador sondland with you, a ambassador volker. And at 7 54, he says call a. Sap. And then at 9 35shgs ambassador volker, you respond. Is the screen working in front of you or just to the side . Yeah. If can you read what you said at 9 35. Yes. So i said gordon, i got your
message. He will see you tomorrow. Think everything is in it place. And who is yermak . That is the Senior Adviser to president zelenskyy of ukraine. Now what was the message that you had received . That president zelenskyy should be clear, convincing, foshlg right with President Trump about his commitment to fighting corruption and investigating what happened in the past, get to the bottom of things, whatever there is and if he does that, President Trump was prepared to be reassured. That he would say yes, come on, lets get this date for this visit scheduled. Did you understand from that message that ambassador sondland had spoken to President Trump . It wasnt sure whether he had or not. He, as mr. Morrison just said,
said does he speak with Presid