Transcripts For MSNBCW Hardball With Chris Matthews 20141022

MSNBCW Hardball With Chris Matthews October 22, 2014 23:00:00

Into fear and we cant allow our leaders to create policy based on panic. That would be a betrayal of our best values. Thanks for watching. Im al sharpton. Hardball starts right now. Terrorists without borders. This is hardball. Good evening. Im chris matthews. In washington, today terrorism struck to the north in ottawa, the capital of canada. A gunman shot and killed a soldier standing guard at the countrys war memorial. He then entered the nearby Parliament Building and opened fire. Heres what it looked and sounded like. [ gunfire ] the countrys Prime Minister, stephen harper, was in that building, near where the shots were fired. He was quickly whisked to safety. Lawmaker, meanwhile, barricade themselves behind doors, piled up with chairs. The gunman was shot and killed. Nbc news has confirm his name. Michael zehafbibeau, a common algerianure is name he is believed to have taken. It came after another muslim convert ran down two, killing one in a parking lot outside montreal. Last month an isis commander had called on followers to kill canadiens, americans and other westerners whether military or civilian. Three girl in denver have tried to join isis where we see americans residents joining the other side. Well look at how this Security Breach on our continent will affect the u. S. Midterm elections coming on strong. Michelle shepherd is a National Report he for the toronto star. Pete williams, of course, nbcs justice correspondent. Here in the u. S. We have michael weiss, columnist and editor for the interpreter and clint van zandt. We begin with michelle in ottawa. Give us a capsule of what happened today and how it fit into recent fears weve had about terrorism on this continent . It certainly has been a fear that we will have attacks here in canada. I think that no one thought canada would be immune to this. And we have become involved with the fight in syria and iraq and that has raised our profile. And as you mentioned in the introduction, there have been call for those who couldnt go over to fight in the name of the Islamic State to have attacks at home. And there have been fear among our community and Intelligence Service thats particularly vulnerable were military personnel and targets. Thats what happened this week. Both with todays attack, the killing of the soldier, and also on monday there was an attack on quebec where another soldier was killed, struck by a car. Do the canadian people see this as an intimidation to discourage they will from joining the coalition against isis . You know, i think thats probably what the intent of the attack was. Here in ottawa it has been a state of chaos and shock. I think that will be the discussion that, in the coming days. There was so much uncertainty throughout the day. Much of the city was locked down and there are still large parts of the downtown that cannot be accessed and still a lot of information and questions that we dont know yet about what happened. But definitely, that is something be good something that will be debated and discussed. I just wonderful when the president of the United States says senseless violence, this is very purposeful violence. This is political. You tell me what the people up there feel. This is aimed at changing canadian policy toward isis. It is not senseless. It may be horrible and ruthless but it does have a point. We dont know the circumstances. Either both the mondays attack or today. Both the shooter and the suspect in the car, they were both killed. But definitely, who they chose as targets would lead to you believe that there was definitely a pledge being sent. I agree. Pete, what do we know about how this threatens us and how it is put together . In terms of this specific incident, u. S. Officials have looked into the back ground of this person, Robert Michael hall. Also his recent convert name, michael zehafbibeau. He just turned 32 and he is from quebec. He was not apparently in any kind u. S. Terror database. There are indications the canadian authorities were aware of him. What the extent of their surveillance of him is not clear. So theres no direct connection. To put this in u. S. Terms, this would be like somebody shooting someone at the tomb of the unknowns in Arlington National cemetery and then coming over and firing shots at the u. S. Capitol. That is the u. S. Version of wham here. Were told there is no further security at the capitol or the white house or many other buildings but they did increase security at the tomb of the unknowns and the national cemetery. So it is antimilitary. Thats one of the targets. Antigovernment more than anything. And antimemorial. Thats the ritual we observe, the way we are so dedicated to the memory of people who died in service and theyre creating a different i think it is too hard to read into what the motive was of this gunman. I think the other thing we should say to ourselves is, despite all the chaos, one person was killed. Thats a tragedy, of course, but who knows how many victims this person had in mind . Well, witnesses describe what happened this morning. Take a look. On the statue and i heard a bunch of pops. I thought it was firecrackers going off. I looked across the street and there is a man with a rifle shooting out a bunch of people. So we, you know, i yelled at all my guys. Theres guys shooting. So get down, get down. Saw a man with a scarf, long black hair, he had a jacket and a Double Barrel shotgun. He ran up the side and hijacked the car at gumt. Didnt hurt the gentleman in the car and then took off toward the back and headed in that direction. Just taking off my jacket. I hear this pop, bomb, pop. Possibly ten shots. Dont really know. I thought it was dynamite rather than anything else. Suddenly the security guards come rushing down the hall ways. Let me ask but the patterns. We have seen the attempt to bring down the world trade central buildings back in people in. They attacked the foundations of the building with dynamite. Then of course the blind sheikh gets picked you know because they do something stupid with a rental car and he was identified and prosecuted and in prison. Then eight years later they come back with airplanes. And you would not, a fundamental question. What stops a terrorist from going after their ultimate goal even when theyre intercepted at one point . They go after the monuments, they kill soldiers. What will stop the next people to do the same thing . Well, i think it is a good point to compare to past attacks. And what the security official have feared and been warning of, it doesnt take sophisticated plots like we saw on 9 11 to really spread widespread terror. And you know, both today and monday, what looked like very, very simple attacks. It takes someone with a mission and a gun to go do something. And the ramifications of that can be huge. And i think as was just mentioned, today as devastating as it was, it could have been a lot worse. This is the heart of the capitol and the heart of canada. In a very crowded area. It is amazing there were not more casualties. They seem like suicide missions. They knew they wonderful get through them. You said before, if they couldnt get overseas to fight in the battle handle over there between iraq and syria, they would have to do it here. If doing it here mental they would probably end up killed. There is another part of that debate, too. In mondays attacks, the suspect had had his passport taken. Canada brought in a new program. If a passport could be seized for those who were suspected of wanting to go abroad and fight for the Islamic Group or other groups. So he apparently was on the list lou had their passports taken. And i think weve seen that in other cases as well, australia. That adds another dimension how many do you protect both abroad and at home . Let me go to michael weiss, editor of the interpreter. We are looking at a different kind of war. We have our own police, fbi, all kinds of constabulary. Tens of thousands of police officers in new york, for example. Were up against people who are living a zealotry. I want to read you something from seven pillars of wisdom that lawrence of arabia wrote years ago. I thought it was romantic but now i know. All that dream at night in the dusty recesses wake to find it was vandal. The dreamers of the day are dangerous men for they may act their dream. With open eyes to make it possible. And i just wonder, these people that decide theyll be terrorists become terrorists. Nothing stops it. Between wanting to and doing it. If youre willing to die. Absolutely. There are a lot of psychological motivations here. We cant pretend. There are plenty who see this as the great struggle of our time. You mentioned lawrence of arain. I cant this is orientalism turned on its head. They think the way to hem arab civilization or arab societies is to join up with these barbaric terrorist groups who are fighting equally barbaric regimes. Heres the problem. If youre isis, we talk a lot about foreign fighters going on syria. And then we spend thought energy and resources trying to attract their energies. If youre isis, what is more pragmatic . To send a soldier into say, belgium or germany to blow something up or rather, to meet with somebody online who is already tilting toward radicalization. Somebody living in his mothers basement, lets say, who might be in london or montana or wherever. And say stay where you are. Youre one of our sleepers. When the time is right, well connect with you others in your community or around the country. When the time is right, youll set something off. Thats the sort of lone wolf attack strategy which al qaeda prior to isis had been pursuing with great gusto. You recall a few christmases ago. The one nick nail the underpants bomber tried to blow up a plane over detroit. He was a student in lonl. His father was a nigerian minister in government who had warned the college and the u. K. Authorities that his son was tenning toward radicalization. Fascinating. I want to bring people in. You work with the fbi all the time. They have to live with this. What do they worry about . This is exactly what they worry about. It undetectible for the most part. If a person will become radicalized, there is flown to tip off the government. Often time someone says that behavior struck me as odd. You think about the School Shootings weve been through. Those young men were dreamed up these ideas on their own. And in the case of selfradicalization, it is the selfpart thats the most worrisome. There are no trim wires, no way to catch them. A guy or a woman i guess could go out and get a weapon. And put them to work. Well be right back now about the threat to the u. S. This is right on our border. As i said, terrorism without borders is now real. Well come back michelle shepherd and our friend Pete Williams who covers justice across the country. Stick around. Well talk about sleeper cell in the u. S. After that attack yesterday in canada, how likely is it something similar, something very much like this could happen at home . For example, right before the elections . Theres confidence. Then theres trusting your vehicle maintenance to ford service confidence. 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I watched that and spent so much time in the capitol. You begin to fear that could be our capitol. Those are horrific sights and sounds on the canadian parliament. Our southern border with mexico dominates the political conversation, especially on the right. There is now a very real threat happening from the north. Catch this. In december 1999, an islamic terrorist living in canada was arrested after gaining entry to theous a mission, his mission to blow up the l. A. Airport on new years eve giving him the nickname, the millennium bomber. The threats arent isolated to the north or the mideast. There is a growing threat of radicalization on this continent. Over the weekend, three American Teenage girl from denver were an rehelened over in germany. Officials believe they were on the way to join isis. A 19yearold kid from chicago was arrested after tried to hop a flight from istanbul. The charges, attempting to support a terrorist organization. Last month, nbc news tracked down a person from North Carolina who admitted trying to join isis. But couldnt get past theicthe i get past the turkish border. You have to would not, if these americans are trying to fight for the isis jihad over there, is it only a matter of time before they declare jihad here at home. I want to bring in cleint, our friend. As someone who goes to bed and thinks about this. How does this strike the canada capitol, this placid picture post card little place that i would love to be and visit. All of a sudden now has to lock down and start bringing all the big tiger teeth and doors in your face and official ways and metal detectors and everything else. It changes the quality of our democracy. And has already done it to us. Once it happen one time, you cannot get fooled again. The government tells us, our government tells us, plus or minus 100 people, that the fbi is keeping track of. So many are those who have upon the to the middle east and tried toing who up with isis, those who have gone and come back and those who have been ejected. So we have these hanging out there. Then you have these guys sitting in their parents basement on the internet. They may as one of your guests suggest, be in contact with someone who says, just stay in place and we will call you. As pete suggests, the other category that really bothers me are the ones that not only, they selfinitiate. They make a decision. Theyre already radicalized based upon the internet and maybe people and friends. They make the decision when theyre going to strike. Like the guy today. He may just for example, have seen this other convert two days ago, run over these two soldiers and that, aha, thats my sign and he selfinitiates. Even though we dont have these cells in the United States, we have people capable of doing this. Were all in this media world. A lot of people watch nbc news all the time. And theyre exposed to it. Both the good people who are obeying the law and the people who have pretty frightening ambitions in life. Much more concerning is the fact that this isis propaganda push is something that is especially worrisome to officials. These are propaganda videos produced in english specifically to appeal to a north america audience. Theyre aimed directly at them when they say come on over and help us. It is much different. They never had that vernacular with us. Your sense about the nearness of this threat. People living in the United States, below the border. Well, ill give what you the form he Deputy Director of the cias sense of it was. It would shock me if somebody in isis didnt pick up an ak47 and shoot in rural america. You dont need a speck spend along the lines of 9 11 or even what the so call millennium bomber was planning, to blow up Los Angeles International airport. All you have to do is just, you have to traumatize and terrorize an entire country by doing something very small like this attack. It resulted in only one fatality, one too many, of course. But this is not what they would call spectacular. Obviously waged on a national governmental, huge symbolic importance, the target. But anyone can do it. Thats what worries me and thats what worries most counterterrorism officials and most analysts. So one guy with a rifle go to the war memorial and shoots a soldier. Not even that. Any farm house, a school. Any kind of remote location which of course will become the subject of international attention, right . Killing a bunch of people or holding them hostage. Thats the kind of propaganda that a group like isis would look to engender. There is something about listening to the sound of that hallway. The time floor, the sound of bullets. It grabs you as very iconic. You mention, the former cia director said if an isis member showed up at a mall in the United States tomorrow with an ak47 and killed a number of americans, i would not be surprised. And eric holder offered this sobering warning over the summer. These lone wolves, people who keep me up at night as well. Trying to anticipate what it is they are going to do. The experience that we had in boston is struckive. It only takes one or two people to really do something horrific. I want to go back to clint and then back to michael and pete. This notion that i was quoting from seven pillars of wisdom in the arab revolt, all it took was someone a rifle willing to die, to give their lives, you can blow up trains. You can do it. Get some dynamite and blow up trains. Wheres the risk . It seems to me if people are willing to give their lives in this zealous, r

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