Effect. Well see what happens. Thats going to do it for this hour. Thanks for the time. Im steve kornacki, hardball with chris matthews, and then special coverage of the wisconsin primary with brian williams, rachel maddow, chris matthews, ill be there as well. Straight ahead. Will wisconsin make history. Lets play hardball. Good evening, im chris matthews, out in milwaukee. We learn whether donald trump has withstood his week of trouble or that his trouble has only begun. Tonight, we learn whether the democratic race is trending toward Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton is holding strong. Wisconsin will matter. This state has been a political
weather vein. In 1960, john f. Kennedy battled out with hubert humphrey. We have a chance in this primary if we insist upon this primary contest being a sober and serious discussion of the issues and not a beauty contest or a personality parade. The wisconsin president ial primary is not a hollywood talent contest. Well, kennedy won in wisconsin, only to have walter cronkite, voting for the catholic candidate. Polls showing antivietnam war, Eugene Mccarthy beating him in wisconsin, forced Lyndon Johnson to quit the race, creating a future primary contest between mccarthy and senator robert kennedy. On the night of the wisconsin primary, mccarthy knocked kennedy for his late entry into
the president ial race, though, rfq had joined the fight two weeks earlier. Even though there may be a few late entries in the race, or one that i dont think it would make any difference, we know what the contest is, we know what our strength is, no defections in wisconsin, and i think we can go on to certain victory. Eight years later, 1976, congressman claimed victory in wisconsin primary, only to have upstart jimmy carter overtake him in the final count. So close that the milwaukee sentinel newspaper said udall had won, giving carter this photo op. Campaign anything wisconsin, inciting there will be a surprise tonight. We feel great. I mean, the turnout has been fantastic. Well have a great day. I believe tomorrow were going to have a very big victory. I think were going to have a great day. Well, lets go right now to nbcs chris jansing, at a polling place in the village of jackson, wisconsin tonight. Chris, thanks for joining us. Ive got an interesting question for you. If donald trump is going to win tonight, why isnt he going to be in wisconsin . Why he is back in new york . Reporter well, maybe he is hearing what were hearing here, this is what they call the wow counties, three of them that are critical to republicans. In fact, they have some of the highest turnout right here, you can see all the people. If you go down this line, chris, theyre going to go about a 52 turnout absolutely fantastic. He said thats one of the reasons he thinks hell potentially win here. The problem is that this is heavily scott walker, and that h
this is a place he made his come back. The reasons that donald trump came here and sounded as though he was so positive about his prospects here, it doesnt look good for him, when you have the kind of turnout in these heavily republican areas, that have been the the past of favorite scott walker. A new report out in politico. It says Donald Trumps campaign is increasingly falling into disarray. Since march, the campaign has been laying off field staff around the country. Dismantled much of what existed in the organizations in general election battle grounds, including florida and ohio. They left the Campaign Last month in protest of the way its management was treating its staff. A source familiar with the departure told politico. Chris, you had a back and forth. Lets watch that. No respects women more than i
do. Not even close. Nobody respects women more than i do. Why arent they getting that message. Because i get an unfair press. We just had a big meeting. Many women at the meeting. Air best with the borders, best with security. I said im going to be best for Womens Health issues. Much better than hillary. Much better than anybody else. Are you hearing anything from republican women who are going to be voting today or did vote today about their attitude towards trump . Does it differ from the way men look at him . Reporter look, ive been talking to them all week, ever since you had your town hall, chris. He made his comments on abortion. Many of them, not only up set by what he said, but the fact that in their mind, ts goes for men and women, thought it indicated that this is something he had not thought through. Thats not something you do when you are running for president in a republican primary. I think in addition to that, a number of people unprompted brought up Corey Lewandowski and the charges against him, the
fact that donald trump has not said anything negative about him. In fact, has backed him up. I asked him about both of those things today, and he simply denied it. He denied that women sdodont l him, in spite of the polls showing 77 have an unfavorable view of him. The cover of the new york magazine, katy tur reporting has done, when you have the bad week he has had, which he denies, when you have the polls that show for the first time the establishment may beat donald trump in a state as important as wisconsin, that there would be Something Back and forth in the campaign, especially with the people who have been with him for years and the new ones coming in the last couple of months. Thank you very much, chris. Anybody that wants to see and actually hear what donald trump said last week in our town hall in green bay, all about what he
thought about abortion, how it should be punished, go to hardball hardball. Msnbc. Com. Steady republican voters, 45 . Thats a pretty good number. 45 . Cruz, 17 points back, 28 . And despite a number of controversies, trump down just three points since last week. So where does it stand now . Two conservatives with different views. Radio host and author, charles sykes, in the never trump camp, and ann coulter. How do you see trump coming out of wisconsin, do you think hell be strong in the northeast . I dont think it will have much affect on voters in new york. I mean, i love wisconsin. Its the home of joe mccarthy. No one says, you know, as goes wisconsin, so goes new york. And we have the way the primary calendar is set up, were now heading into a whole slew of states that are very good for donald trump, and not good for a preacher type, like donald cruz or like ted cruz. I also think this woman thing is a little overblown. I mean, its so much coming from the media. As if trump has made these horrible comments about women. He made he sent out a retweet about one specific woman. His opponents wife after his own wife was tacked by that opponent. So i think it gets repeated so much, and women can be very suggestive and following of trends. What did you mean by joe mccarthy . I can never tell when youre trying to provoke. Do you have a kind view of joe mccarthy or just causing trouble here. I have a half book about it in my book tree son. No, i love joe mick core thecca i love gene mccarthy. My father was gene mccarthys Wisconsin Campaign director in 1968. So i was there. The apple fell far from the tree. I know. We all grow with the times. Actually, Hillary Clinton and i were both for goldwater as kids, mccarthy and we are who we are. You went some route like that go im a recovering liberal. Youve been the toughest critic of donald trump. Tell me about the way your listeners, you talked to them for three and a half hours a day. What are they saying . I think wisconsin is very different. Wisconsin has a different culture here. Civility and decency. We have a better bs meter, quite honestly. Donald trump has gotten away with sloganing. I think wisconsin will change the trajectory of this. I think your conversation about abortion will change it. Not so much because he is a
liberal or conservative, but what he found out is this a man who is literally thoughtless. He has not spent 30 seconds thinking about these major issues, nuclear weapons, abortions, any of these issues. I think hell be exposed. I think wisconsin will expose the fact that he is vulnerable. That when in fact, you begin to talk about his record, talk about what a demagogue is, what a fraud give me an example of why you think he is a demagogue. When he says that he is going to do things that he is not going to do. When he says hell build the wall and the mexicans will pay for it. You dont think no. He said today, by the way, he is going to pay for it by threatening the government of mexico with cutting off remittances, apparently 15 billion goes down to mexico every year from People Living here illegally or not. I think he has made it clear that every you dont think that would work . Of course. I dont think he thinks it will work. Basically everything he says is
an opening gamut. I have to say this, this is what i think conservatives want to hear. But does he actually have a plan to implement it, no. You say, charlie, as if you are no. 45 of the republican nationwide prefers him to the other candidates. Lets see what happens in wisconsin. Here in wisconsin, weve actually started to expose it. Weve challenged him. We pay more attention. I think thats what he is running up against. Our voters are battle tested. Our voters have seen conservatives, seen leadership, know the difference between an actual leadership and a clown car. Weve used that phrase too. Ann, you are an expert in this field, why do you think the radio guys like charlie, who is successful, rush limbaugh, theyre all antitriple. I think laura ingram too. Why is that . I cant speak to them specifically, but what i do notice is just the absence of
substance. I keep hearing that, you know, the antitrump people. Well, its because we think more deeply, and we dont fall for this demagoguery. Im glad you asked for examples. If you want someone who is lying and demagoguing, ted cruz goes around saying ted cruz is prochoice. Thats from a quote he gave in 1999, that he took back the next year. He is clearly prolife now. Ted cruz goes around saying that donald trump is for socialized medicine, and he thinks he wants Bernie Sanders socialized medicine. No, he just said he wont let people die on the street. If thats the new republican position, its a shocker to me. As for your question on abortion, i mean, i know thats a big thing for you. Ive been prolife since high school, talking and writing about it. Ive never thought about it. Its not the job of the president. Its the job if donald trump were running for state legislature in the year 2060,
af after roe v. Wade is overturned, to be upset about that i would be more upset that women will get a lot more abortions if we dont close our mexican borders. I think ann is a little in denial. It is not just one tweet. When you have here in wisconsin, 77 of the women disapprove of donald trump. Nationally, it is 70 . At some point, ann, you need to have an intervention and point out that you have to address this. Cannot be elected president when you do these things. What donald trump has done is he has tried to replace juvenile insults for actual substance on issues. Take a minute and respond to that ann. Well, i think its more important. You can judge someone on, you know, whether you consider them ghosh or their supporters
walmart shoppers, but there are more important things and donald trump is the only one who will build a wall. The only one who will stop the Trans Pacific partnership. Unless youre going for fashion and style, and oh, no, he is too ghosh and his voters are too ghosh, maybe a lot of women fall for that kind of thing, but if you care for women and care about the women of this country, trump is definitely your guy. You are amazing, ann. Thank you for coming on. Charlie, thanks. Nice to meet you. A powerful man out here. A new interview with Bernie Sanders is raising questions about his grasp of the issues, his signature issue of saying hell break up the banks. He has no idea exactly how do that. Democrats criticizing sanders on what he had to say about guns. Bob woodward coming here as
well, Donald Trumps revealing interview where he predicted the country is headed for a massive recession. Trump now has a plan by the way, as i said, about how to get mexico to pay for that wall. You heard that theory. This is hardball, the live coverage. More from milwaukee, after this. Show me movies with explosions. Show me more like this. Show me previously watched. Whats recommended for me. X1 makes it easy to find what blows you away. Call or go online and switch to x1. Only with xfinity. It is a beautiful day. We are hoping that here in wisconsin, that there will be a record breaking turnout if people come out to vote in large numbers, i think well do very, very well. Thats what were hoping for. Welcome back to hardball. That was, of course, Bernie Sanders. Earlier today, campaigning here in milwaukee, expected to do well in the state tonight. Sanders recently sat down in the New York Daily News for an editorial interview and they
pressed him on many things, including his plan on how to break up the big banks. He struggled to give an answer. How would you break up jp morgan chase. How you go about doing it, the secretary of the treasury. These banks are a danger to the economy of the problem of too big to fail. Any way, when the daily news pressed the senator on whether he has the authority of president to break up the banks, sanders said well, i dont know if the fed has it, the federal reserve, but the administration can have it. The daily news continued. If you look at jp morgan, what would it be . What would that institution be . Would there be a Consumer Bank . Sanders responds, im not running jp morgan or citibank. Kristin welker covering the Clinton Campaign and barbara lawton, the former congresswoman of wisconsin backing bernie. Kristin, this race, i dont know, everybody thinks bernie has a bit of a lead. Well, the Clinton Campaign certainly thinks so. Theyre bracing for a loss, chris. It could be a significant loss. They think it could be double digits. Of course, theyre trying to lower expectations. If they lose by five or six points, they can say thats not so bad. Look, the editorial you just cited a political gift on day a when theyre brace fog are a loss, theyve been tweeting out sections of it. Ive been talking to Clinton Campaign officials. You can expect them to use that as they campaign here in new york. A critical state for secretary clinton. Her adopted home state and more
than 200 delegates. Theyre particularly i am told going to hit the issue of guns hard, of course, he said that he doesnt support victims being able to sue gunman f manufactur. Theyre planning to really use that editorial and run with it, as secretary clinton vigorously campaigns here in new york. I would just point out, she is not in wisconsin now. She had an event in brooklyn earlier today and a fundraising event. That tells you all you need to know about what their chances are in wisconsin. Kasie, will senator sanders get through the night, probably win here, go to new york, and a bra bra brainiac session. He doesnt have an answer now to break up the banks. A really difficult interview for him, chris. I think one way to think about it is were secretary clinton to
give an interview, how her answers might be picked over. This interview walked through policy issues that he is both comfortable with and that he is less comfortable with. Foreign policy as well. He was pressed on what kind of position he would take on israeli settlements in west bank. What he would find acceptable. He was not able to say, you know, what exactly he would do in that regard. So i think part of this is that he of course has crafted an image as somebody who is very strong on policy. He is the cool wonk if you will, somebody who gets down into the weeds, sticks to the issues, doesnt get into the nastiness of politics. This contradicted it a little bit. I asked jane about this in an interview today. She defended him. Saying you know what, he did fine. He knows what he needs to know on foreign policy. As kristin said, a gift to the Clinton Campaign on an otherwise
difficult day for them looking into wisconsin, chris. Yeah let me go back. First of all, kasie, while you have you, where will sanders be tonight . Will he receive the victory somewhere . Well, were here in wyoming, the winds are like 65 miles an hour. Theyve got i80 shut down because the trucks are rolling around. He is here, because the caucus is coming up saturday. He has taken this tactic over and over again of pushing to the next state. So he is not going to be in wisconsin to celebrate victory there, but he will be giving what we expect to be a victory speech. The question of course, the margin of victory. They of course still feel like they need to prove that he does have a path to the nomination. I think thats one of their greatest frustrations. I talked to jane sanders about that as well today. She of course is a close political advisor so her husband, in addition to being spouse, surrogate and all these other things. She said thats really what they have to convince people of,
especially older americans. You know what, he does are a path to this nomination. Of course there was reporting in the New York Times how they might have done things differently in 2015 if they had in fact thought sanders had a plausible path to win and not a cause candidate. She said you know what, Bernie Sanders has always been convinced that he can win. If anything, she suggested she wasnt sure he had a path and he was the one that came back and said no, i can win it. He is really in it to win and they still see a path open. Wisconsin, of course, helping with that potentially. But new york, the big prize. Thank you, kasie. Ive going to go to governor. Why are you for bernie . Because i believe that he is somebody that can lead us in this moment that feels very urgent to us in wisconsin, and i think with people across the nation. Weve watched the middle class be hallowed out. Our democratic system is
crumbling. And we need somebody who has the courage to lead that. Yeah. And he is somebody who feels, he is unfetterred by special donors. He has drawn us into this process. I feel like with Bernie Sanders, he is not asking us to campaign for him. He has a vision for who we should lets talk about and he is youre not some 20