Well be back monday, same bat time, same bat channel. Thanks for watching. For everyone here at with all due respect we say to you, sayonara. Coming up, hardball with Chris Matthews. Uncertain trumpet. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. Donald trump who believes love means never having to say youre sorry is starting to take back his words. He woke up this morning saying all his repeated claims that president obama is the founder of isis wasnt meant to be for real. Trump made the aboutface in a tweet this morning saying quote, ratingschallenged cnn reports so seriously that i call president obama and clinton the founder of isis and mvp. They dont get sarcasm. Well, at a rally later this
afternoon, trump again said he shouldnt have been taken at his word and attacked the media for doing that. Lets watch. I make one mistake, a little thing, oh, he mentioned something wrong, he got it wrong. Headlines all over. So i said the founder of isis. Obviously im being sarcastic. Then, then, but not that sarcastic, to be honest with you. And they all said he should not say that. That is they should call him an enabler. Call him an enabler. Hes an enabler. I said that doesnt sound the same. Hes an enabler. People will say whats these people are the worst. So they knew i was being sarcastic but now theyre analyzing. Did i really mean that, how could i say that. These people are the lowest form of life. Im telling you. Well, this comes after donald trump in just the last 48 hours made the accusation multiple
times repeatedly doubling down on his charge every chance he got. Heres trump doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the charge that president obama is a founder of isis. Here he is. He is the founder of isis. Hes the founder of isis. Okay . Hes the founder. As far as im concerned, and ill say it and ill say it to anybody that wants to listen, he is a founder of isis. They must love him. Barack obama is the founder, he is the founder in the true sense. You mentioned president obama being the founder of isis. What did you mean by that . And Hillary Clinton exactly that. Hes the founder of isis. Yes. Hes a founder. Hes a founding father. Do you think its appropriate to call the sitting president of the United States the founder of a terrorist organization that wants to kill americans . He was the founder of isis, absolutely. I know what you meant. You meant that he created the
vacuum, he lost the peace. No, i meant hes the founder of isis. I call president obama and Hillary Clinton the founders of isis. Theyre the founders. You know, i dont think i have ever seen anything quite like this. Im joined by nbcs Hallie Jackson at the trump rally in altoona, pennsylvania. Let me ask you this, hallie. Why didnt we all believe what he said . For weeks now, time after time, even when hugh hewitt tried to talk him off the cliff or off the 34th floor window, he said no, no, no, no, hes the founder of isis. This morning at 6 30 he gets up and says oh, that was not what i meant, that was sarcasm. How do you figure . Reporter listen, this is a pattern that fits into trumps playbook in the past. I think you nailed it with the repeated times that he was given an opportunity to get out of what he said. He was asked pointblank what did you mean, do you want to walk it back, didnt you mean x, y or z. Trump repeatedly said no, i meant hes the founder of isis. Heres the deal. I think what happens is trump sees the reaction, he floats these if you can call them trial
balloons, he looks at how the media, he looks at how supporters and others are reacting and then he decides how he will either walk it back or not. Even his walkbacks are only semiwalkbacks. He came out before the morning shows this morning, tweeted about it being sarcasm. Later in the day talked about it being sarcasm although he acknowledged not totally sarcastic so walking back the walkback, if you will. Remember, remember when he suggested that the russians should hack Hillary Clinton . He was asked about that in an interview and he said at the time that of course he was being sarcastic. What this does, it allows him to do a couple things that play well with rooms like this one in this conservative part of pennsylvania. It allows him to go after democrats for spinning these what he calls talking points. Number twosh, it allows him to t the members of the Media Standing on this platform with me which is something his supporters love to see and which is for trump, proven to be an effective strategy. Moments ago, donald trump said the only way he could lose
pennsylvania and the election is if his opponents cheat. Lets watch that. Only way we can lose if my opinion, i really mean this, pennsylvania, is if cheating goes on. And we have to call up Law Enforcement and we have to have the sheriffs and the Police Chiefs and everybody watching, because if we get cheated out of this election, if we get cheated out of a win in pennsylvania, which is such a vital state, especially when i know whats happening here, folks. I know she cant beat whats happening here. The only way they can beat it in my opinion, and i mean this 100 , if in certain sections of the state, they cheat. Well, you know what hes talking about, hallie. Hes talking about philadelphia. Thats what hes certain sections of this state, certain sections . I know what hes talking about when hes out in altoona and
johnstown. Thats a message, they cheat in philly. Thats what hes saying. They wouldnt cheat here in altoona or even pittsburgh. No, they cheat back in the east, back in philly. I know what hes saying. Reporter right. He talked about philly, when he brought up philly, you know as a pennsylvania man yourself, people here booed. They jeered the mention of that, the mention of philadelphia, for example. But this idea that trump is continuing to talk about a rigged system maze on two fronts. Number one, to trump its a way of continuing to promote this argument that the big guys are stacking it up against him, that hes the underdog and hes fighting for the people like the ones in altoona. On the flipside his critics argue this is actually one of the more dangerous longterm arguments that donald trump is making, that when we all wake up on november 9, if trump loses, he can then point to the system and say its not right, its not fair, its rigged, that undermines the foundation of what the election system is built on in this country. It is an argument that he started making a couple of weeks ago and that hes brought up time and time again in places in
rallies like this one. It will sell in ecuador. Thats the kind of stuff they do in third world countries with less developed democracies. You always say you will have it stolen so you never really lose. Im joined by eli stoekles and heidi presley. Heidi, this has really gotten out of hand. Why do we even record his words . Two days later he says they dont matter, they were something else. On both points. In terms of the rigged system this is the same argument we heard him make in the primaries when it looked like ted cruz was going to be challenging which is that hes struggling in the polls, these numbers may be baked in and he starts to lay the groundwork for what will be the excuse for why he winds up losing is that the whole thing was rigged, it was the establishment taking him down and its essentially the same thing he did in the primaries, kind of a preemptive strategy. What we have from leaders is basically their physical sort of appearance on the stage. We look at them. Then you listen to them. There are no actions in
politics. There are words. If his words are totally indescribable, unreliable, incredible, what is his campaign about . If he says this doesnt matter because i didnt really say this and this has gone on from the time, the other classic example of course, is when he said the russians, i want them to hack into hillarys email. Or when he said the video showing the money drop, was showing the money drop rather than hostages being released. He has this cavalier approach to words and to facts and to the truth, and thats something that yeah, worked well for him in the primary but like hallie said, his message plays well in that room. His problem is hes still talking to the same room. Its a challenge covering him. Its like trying to describe a snow globe that never settles. The clips you played, hes sitting there saying it was sarcastic. Well, it wasnt that sarcastic. Hes constantly contradicting himself. Makes it really challenging. How do you follow him . His supporters see what they want to see. I know. I think youre right. I thought this was different,
though. In some ways, trump does kind of go off the cuff and go off message and makes a gaffe here or there and it gets blown up. In this case, this was pretty deliberate. He did it over and over again. I really think in trumps mind because lets be clear here, no ones running this campaign but trump, and in his mind, this was a good strategy to try and i have a 30 20 theory. 30 will vote for him no matter what he says. The others like the birther thing. Hes really from africa, hes not one of us. Then you throw in this latest stuff. Of course hes the founder of isis, hes from africa. Hes a muslim. Of course. That 30 are buying the literal charge. Then he gets worried, wait a minute, i cant win with 30 , i need the 20 , the people who read the newspapers, i better pull back. He gets up at 6 30 this morning, i cant win with 30 , i got to go back to the suburban people, independent voters who just want a change, who dont like the clinton and bush thing going on all the time, i got to get them back. So he says it was just sarcasm. But then hes scared for a second, flop sweat again, he goes oh, my god, i better say i wasnt really being sarcastic. Hes trying to get to 30, his core, and pick up the 20 and hes getting a little bat crazy about this. I think its a matter of who hes listening to. He knows what he thinks and believes and thinks he should be able to say but hes losing his leverage with the rnc and with that 20 he needs. Trying to hammer into him hey, get on message finally. He needs the rnc because they are basically his campaign in all the states. When they call to yell at him, at some point hes running out of leverage. He was up around 50 . Now hes down around 35 . D democratic senator chris murphy took to twitter, saying quote, what im looking for is a president who has a good sense of humor about isis. Assassinations and russian cyberwarfare. Trumps allies have been critical of recent comments
about the president. Bob corker telling a reporter quote, to say that an elected official in our country founded a terrorist organization like isis is taking the facts that took place in 2011 and carrying that far too far. Even Newt Gingrich is showing exasperation with the Trump Campaign. Heres what he said this morning on fox. But one of the things thats frustrating about his candidacy is the imprecise language. He sometimes uses three words when he needs ten. I know what trump has in his mind but thats not what people hear. And i think thats he has got to learn to use language that has been thought through and that is clear to everybody and stick to that language because otherwise, the mainstream medias going to take every possible excuse to pile on him. This isnt about piling on. Lets take a look now at the pattern here. Just this morning, at 6 30, you had to get up early to catch trump, he tweets the fact that you know, it was just sarcasm. This day after day relentless
thing i just showed you a few moments ago of him saying obama is the founder of isis along with Hillary Clinton, of course. But this isnt the first time trump has clarified a statement just like this. After he asked russia, like talking to a country to commit an act of cyberterrorism against Hillary Clintons Campaign Last month, trump later explained he was just being, heres the word, sarcastic. Russia, if youre listening, i hope youre able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. When im being sarcastic with something, first of all of course im being sarcastic. You know saturday night live, just kidding. He thought that was a great line. Just kidding. Thats what trumps like now. No, just being sarcastic. A lot of his appeal is doing it so differently, being so unconventional, being willing to throw everything out and be entertaining. But most people i think at this point, the elections gotten to this point where we are looking at whos going to actually be
president. Theres a seriousness to it now. You want sarcasm, you watch a bill murray movie. You dont want to see that in someone whose words will have geopolitical impact. He says dont invest in the stock market. A president of the United States says that. It could cause a collapse of the market. He says things that oh, that doesnt matter. Add it to the list. We have to move on day by day when he says these things. I really do feel like we are reaching that ceiling point in the polls where he came out of what was generally not the most successful Republican Convention in history compared to a very successful Democratic Convention and its only been stumble, stumble, stumble since then with the gold star family fight, the Second Amendment comment the other day and i really feel like those people who might have given him a chance, the independents, more moderate republicans, those are starting to harden. The 20 he needs to go from 30 to 50. I will talk about it at the end of the show. Also, when he came out of that convention, it was a dull convention. He gave a pretty good speech at the end. It was a barn burner at the very
end. The week wasnt that good. Then he comes on, this week was worse. This is the worst week for him. Paul manafort said as soon as americans see donald trump as a believable president , this election is over. They didnt see it that week and they certainly havent seen then. What do you think Paul Manafort is thinking when he goes to bed at night . How great its going. Thank you both. Coming up, new battleground polling makes the point you made, shows Hillary Clinton out to a big lead in key states. Thats raising the possibility this race might be a runaway, with less than 90 days until the election. Donald trump has a lot of ground to make up, putting it nicely. Can clinton afford to play it safe . Right now she can. This week. I think its a good week for her. Plus donald trump was in erie and altoona today in pennsylvania. Hes heading to youngstown, ohio monday. Trumps counting on disaffected white voters in the rust belt. The kind of people j. D. Vance writes about in his new book, about the appalachian people in southwestern pennsylvania and that part of the country. He joins us tonight to help us
understand the hardcore supporters of donald trump. And Hillary Clinton releases her 2015 tax returns. Now shes daring trump to do the same. The roundtable will be here with that and the question why people are asking after Donald Trumps rough few weeks why, and does trump really want to win this thing. I keep hearing that. Im not into psychobabble. I think he does. He doesnt know what hes doing. Finally let me finish with the outlook for this campaign. I got it figured i think. Real is touching a ray. Amazing is moving like one. Real is making new friends. Amazing is getting this close. Real is an animal rescue. Amazing is over twentyseven thousand of them. Theres only one place where real and amazing live. Book a seaworld vacation package and eat free. New numbers on two states president obama won in 2012. Republicans had hoped to pick up this november. Lets check out the hardball scoreboard. In virginia, Hillary Clinton holds a 13 point lead, in virginia. Clinton 46 , donald trump 33 . In colorado, a 14 point edge for clinton with 46 of the vote to trumps 32 . These are not good bellwether
results for trump. Coming up, two other states that could prove to be even more trouble for trump. The polls that foreshadow a possible landslide victory if you look at the race for Hillary Clinton and if the numbers hold up until november. Gary, gary, gary. I am proud of you, my man. Making simple, smart cash back choices. With quicksilver from capital one. Youre earning unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase, everywhere. Like on that new laptop. Quicksilver keeps things simple, gary. And smart, like you and i like that. I guess i am pretty smart. Dont let that go to your head, gary. Whats in your wallet . Weve been hearing so much about how youre a digital company, so you can see our confusion. Ge is an Industrial Company that actually builds worldchanging machines. Machines that can also communicate digitally. Like robots. Did you build that robot . Thats not a robot, thats my coworker earl. He builds jet engines with his human hands. What about that robot . That is a vending machine, ricky. John, give him a dollar. Everything is cool when youre watching a screen everything is awesome, when youre sharing a meme a voice remote, show me angry kings you know whats awesome . Everything apps that please, more selfies, endless hours of the best tvs brand new apps, shows to go, awesome internet thats super whoa. Everything is awesome xfinity. The future of awesome. Welcome back to hardball. We have new numbers out tonight from our nbc news wall street journal marist poll of two States Donald trump we have always figured needs to win for any plausible path to victory on his part. Starting with the always crucial swing state of florida, a state obama carried in 2012 and that trump needs to pick up. Clinton holds the lead of 44 to 39 , a five point lead. Not huge but real. Also in North Carolina, a state that mitt romney won in 2012, that trump needs to hold in november. The republicans need to hold on to that. Clinton has opened up a nine point lead there, 48 to 39 . Without trump carrying these two important battleground states, florida and North Carolina, just how big could a Hillary Clintonvictory be in november . Msnbcs Steve Kornacki has the latest for us at the big board. Steve, i have been trying to figure out how trump wins fo