Thanks for watching. Well be back here tomorrow night, same bad time, same bad channel. Until then, sayonara. Hardball with Chris Matthews is next. The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews up in new york. Well, last night, 84 million americans watched the greatest long island drama since the great gatsby and there was a winner and there was a loser. I called it last night, clinton hit trump for his refusal to release his tax returns, for stiffing his business associates, for his birther claims and his attack on her, Hillary Clintons looks and stamina. While playing to his fans, trump today declared is victory. Well, now theyre saying that i not only won the nbc president ial forum, he tweeted, but last night the big debate. Nice. That was trump. Nice. If last night was nice, whats horrible . On fox news this morning, trump gave an excuse for what he knew was a bad night. I thought it went really well. I mean, i had some hostile questions, but that was okay. You watched the last four questions, he hit me on boom, boom, boom. Birther. He hit me on a housing deal from many years ago that i settled with 1973. With no recourse and no guilt. I was asked about my tax returns, which ive told about 500 times. So its you know, i think i did i think i really did well when we were asked normal questions. I think i did really well in answering those questions, but those questions are not answerable in a positive light. I had a problem with the microphone that didnt work. I dont know if you saw that in the room, but my microphone was terrible. I think i wonder if it was set up that way on purpose. My microphone, in the room, they couldnt hear me. You know, it was going on and off. I dont want to believe in conspiracy theories, of course, but it was much lower than hers and it was crackling. And she didnt have that problem. That was, to me, a bad problem. Because if you have a bum mike, its not exactly good. Hillary clinton piled on, of course. Lets watch her. Anybody who complains about the microphone is not having that good night. Later in the day, in a rally in raleigh, clinton celebrated her performance. Did anybody see that debate last night . Oh, yes one down, two to go. And he made it very clear that he didnt prepare for that debate. You know, at one point, he was kind of digging me for spending time off the campaign trail to get prepared. But just trying to keep track of everything he says took a lot of
time and effort. And i said, yeah, you know what, i did prepare. And ill tell you Something Else i prepared for. I prepared to be president of the United States. Well, Donald Trumps holding his first rally since last nights debate. Hes in melbourne, florida, right now and well hear what he has to say about last nights fiasco. It should be fascinating, because hes got to cover a lot to have ground tonight. We begin with the simple question, which candidate is sounding like he or she won . James carville is a longtime clinton political adviser and msnbc political analyst. Dana lash is a radio host and the author of flyover nation. And andrew sullivan, my pal, is a contributing editor at new york magazine. Anywhere, thank you all. James, last night, i was blown away by it. I thought it was not a hard one to call. I thought it was a shutout. And i dont get it, quite. Just, can you i know you have your alliances and your hopes for what was going to happen, but what do you think happened to trump last night . He didnt come in there prepared
to fight even. I dont know what he was up to. Well, he was not prepared. And he was not prepared in the basic sense, like the cutaways. Like i said last night, you know that the cameras going to be on you the whole time. It looks like no one told him that. And his Campaign Said he didnt prepare, and i think thats what happened. One candidate sat there and prepared and did her homework and was told to, you know, watch your reaction shots and everything else. And the other candidate decided he was going to wing it and just got tired and was just in over his head. Look, there are two more debates to go. You know, im sure that he can rectify it. He can do better. Hell surely listen to the people that tell him, you need to be more prepared. And i think his reaction today has not been helpful at all. Its kind of whiney the microphone deal. Whining about the microphone and everything. He just should have said, look, im going to do better next time. President obama lost the first debate to romney in 2012 and just came back. But i think its a simple question of one candidate being ready and prepared and another
candidate just not having any preparation. And it just showed the whole night. Well, tonight actually, today some time already, donald trump suggested there was at least one thing that could change at the next debate. Lets watch him. So going into the next debate, what are you going to do differently . Anything that you would like to do differently . Well, i may hit her harder in certain ways. You know, i really eased up, because i didnt want to hurt anybodys feelings, but i may hit her harder in some ways. Dana, i think that does make a certain amount of sense, in other words, if you lose a fight within the box, you say, im going to go in the next time without those rules. Well have extreme fighting next time. Do you think thats what he should do the next time, go extreme . Personal . I think, yeah, thats maybe what he should do every time. Thats kind of what hes known for, right . Thats how he got through this particular primary. I thought he started the debate off strong, the very first half. He kept to policy. He was way more specific with
different proposals. I think almost than hes ever been. And then somewhere along the middle, i think he let her get to him. She got under his skin and it showed. It looked to me like she pivoted to the personal. I dont mean nasty personal, but he presents himself and he may well be a selfmade billionaire, but when he got that grub steak, and she claim 14 million from the old man, that really bugged him and he couldnt seem to stop reacting to those personal shots about stiffing his suppliers. Every time she hit him that seemed to undercut her image, he couldnt resist giving it three or four moiinutes. I agree with you on that. And im not a hillary supporter by any stretch of the word. But the next debate, and the debate after. First off, he can have a bad debate. Remember back in october of 2012, mitt romney won that debate against barack obama by a landslide, but were not saying president romney right now. So he could still have a good two debates, but he has to not play into the emotions of it. If he goes after her personal life, what went on with her with bill. The whole thing about bill. I dont think he needs to touch her personal life. You said you agree he needs to be more extreme. What do you mean . I think he needs to go after her policies. He didnt even mention benghazi last night or the Clinton Foundation last night. If he wants to get into the personal, i think thats fine. I think character is on the line. But he doesnt even need to go all the way back to the 90s. Just one time here, what did Hillary Clinton do wrong or fail to do in the benghazi episode . What was it that you folks think was the evil here . The us folks, meaning . The critics of Hillary Clinton on benghazi. What exactly did she do wrong or she wasnt forthright with it. First off, she had chris stevens, who had been reaching out repeatedly, asking for security increases. We know this for a fact. Thats the issue . Thats one of the issues, yes. Whats the heart of it . I have a hard time figuring out
the heart of benghazi. I assume it is dereliction of duty. They accuse her, the night he was threatened, that he was killed, that she didnt go to his aid. What is the heart of this charge . I think you nailed it just there. I think its a dereliction of duty do you have evidence that she failed to do her duty that night. She failed to try to save him. And she failed to prepare for it. Do you have evidence . You know . Do you have evidence . Im looking for it. Where is it . Chris, there was information that came forward tell me it, now. I am, now. You keep going, tell me it in and out. Go for it. Chris stevens had the repeatedly requested increases in security i said that night. Even before then. I said that night. Do you have evidence of dereliction of duty he wanted money just to get barricades and that wasnt cleared. So, i mean, that should have been brought up. Yes, i would have liked to see that. But you dont have a point about her failure that night . I think that lack of preparation is all about that night. I think youd agree with me. Last night, donald trump seemingly made a vague reference to clintons past marital problems. Lets watch that. I was going to Say Something extremely wait, wait rough to hillary, to her family, and i said to myself, i cant do it. I just cant do it. Its inappropriate, its not nice. Well, today, trump explained why he restrained himself. When she hit me at the end with the women, i was going to hit her with her husbands women, and i decided i shouldnt do it, because oh, thats what you were talking about . Is that what you said, i had something i could bring up, but i didnt bring it up. Having to do with her husband. Many people thought that all of the women. They sort of thought that was it. And imprint feel comfortable doing it. I think i did the right thing. Its not worth a point. I didnt feel comfortable doing it with chelsea in the room. I think chelseas a fine young lady. I didnt like doing it with chelsea in the room. By the way, donald trump is
arriving, we see his plane there, shes just arrived down in melbourne, florida. He will be addressing his group down there. Well get to that when he hits the hot points tonight. Im sure hell try to make up for last night. Andrew sullivan, its great to hear from you tonight. And i wonder why trump would pull the old nixon thing, i havent brought it up, but people thought i should have. I was going to be a gentleman. If youre going to be a gentleman, be a gentleman and not brag about not being a bore. Why would he want to get into marital fidelity . Why would he choose that baby . I think he thinks the way she treated the women that her husband had dalliances with or sexually harassed underlines her credibility as a defender of womens issues. Now, i think that does haveso se traction on the right, but i certainly dont think it does anything to win over the kind of people he needs to win over right now, basically, you know, collegeeducated whitecollar people who are used to
republicans and wavering about him. I think it would be terrible for him to do that. So i think he made that decision and then tried to make himself seem virtuous. But if he does it next time, i think its going to backfire really badly. I wonder whether let me go back to dana on that one. Because, you know, right or wrong, you know, nobody knows anybody elses marriage but the people in the marriage, thats my sense. But going after the wife for the husbands behavior, and thats what its going to look like, no matter how well he tries to blame her or say he did certain things to abuse the women who made charges against her husband. I want always seems like youre blaming the victim. Thats the way most women look at it. And why would that benefit trump if he were to blame that up . I think, chris, when you have a candidate whos running a campaign partially on a war on women, you go back to what Hillary Clinton said about those women i was a child when all of this was happening. I was watchi ining all of this elementary school. I remember, specifically, Hillary Clinton and surrogates going after some of these women. And so, when youre talking
about a war on women and you are, your husband, for instance, with the Monica Lewinsky situation, you have somebody whos an intern and you have somebody whos the commander in chief, this is a person who is intelligent, who has a lot of influence, recognizes that he has a lot of influence, bear some responsibility there. To excuse his culpability in that particular situation but she never did that in others but she never excused him. I think looks disingenuous. But when she did it, she did attack the other women, what did she call them . She called them bimbos. I think that makes her look to a little, to certain people, disingenuous, and i think that needs to be taken into consideration. Let me get back to the politics of this and not the personal wrong or right, we all know facts. I always like the way you talked about the clinton thing, eyou called it the itsy bitsy sex thing, you never denied the truth of it, but said it wasnt the most important thing on the planet. Well go back to that area that cost the republicans all that in the 98 election. They overcharged him. They went for impeachment, got it through the house, failed in the senate. And all it did was hurt them politically. Almost to the point where gore could have won that election. Anyway. Whats the politics of going after the clinton issue . Okay, first of all, since the jennifer flowers thing, bill clinton has won two president ial elections, Hillary Clinton has won two senate elections. Shes now the nominee of a party. She was overwhelmingly confirmed as secretary of state. If you want to talk about a old news, thats more like ancient news. And here we are, you know, talking about 2016. And look at all of the clinton accusers. Well, where is Bob Livingston today . Wheres Denny Hastert today . Wheres kim star today. Where are all of the people that accused bill clinton, you know newt gingrich. And i think a country you forget newt you go through the whole list of them, you know, and everybody understands what happened james, how did you become so lucky . How did you become so
serendipitous that every main charge, including ken starr, has been somehow blemished by history since i got lucky, because the hypocrisy of going after him, when all of these people are i mean, what ken starr did was, he didnt pursue these allegations of sexual misconduct. He lost his job. Look at what happened to Denny Hastert. Hes going to jail. And these people were all so selfrighteous. They couldnt get over the fact that, oh, my god, someone had consensual sex. The whole country falls apart. Some people have been divorced and have had good second marriages we dont even need to talk about the personal. Dana, if trump goes after hillary on any of this area, it seems to me he will then have to play defense on his lifes situation. I dont think that is going to work. I dont think he will. That was just one of his offshoots. Im not going to speak for him jennifer flowers is going to sit in the first row and make googoo eyes that was funny, come on. Politics is theater. Everyone who is assembled in this panel is well aware politics is theater. Sure, but what kind of theater do you want . James is a master of it. Im not making a moral judgment, just thinking that jennifer flowers is an issue. I dont think we need to focus on the personal issues of the 90s. Her record, chris, you asked me about benghazi, she had lied it was a terrorist attack in emails. Thats enough. You have new current. Its not enough. I think the focus has been to inferentially to say that she cost him his life, and the situation at that facility was never secure. And the charge to me, which would be damning against hillary if it were ever provener ever true, that she failed to do everything she could to save him when the signal came that he was in danger, that he was under attack. Thats to me the heart of it. And the people on your side have kept trying to insinuate that she didnt respond and try to save him. But, chris, why would she in
classified emails that were released, maybe the methods of which we may not agree on, but it came out nonetheless, that showed that she was telling the parents that it was a protest from a video that she knew well and clear that it was a terrorist attack. I dont think theres evidence of derelict of duty. She spent 11 hours defending herself. I dont have to do it. So heres donald trump, the first responder, the first firefighter. Here we go. Hes not making we assume hes going to talk directly about last night. Oh, wow. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. What a group and we have 12,000 people outside that still cant get in. Well get them out on the runway. Well put them out on the runway. We have 12,000 people outside. Its incredible. Theyre coming in. Look at this. We are going to win florida so
big. Its going to be amazing. This is a Movement Like they have never seen before. Never. Last night was very exciting and almost every single poll had us winning the debate against crooked Hillary Clinton big league. Big league. She is as crooked as they come. And ill tell you what, check out. We put them out today, almost every poll, so that was an exciting evening for me, folks. That was an exciting evening. And it set the alltime record for debates and maybe television. Who knows. Look at this crowd. Look at this. This is amazing. Unbelievable. Have ill tell you what. Is there any place more fun or safer to be than at a trmp rally . Right . Right . Were going to take on the special interests, the lobbyists, and the corrupt corporate media, right back there. They are as corrupt as you can get. You know, the single weapon that Hillary Clinton has i mean, she couldnt even pass her bar exam in washington, d. C. She failed it. The single weapon that shes got
is the media. Without the mainstream media, she wouldnt even be here, folks. That i can tell you. She wouldnt even be here. She would havent a chance. So were going to create a new government that serves you, your family, and your country and its going to be the kind of government that youve been looking for for a long time. You know, i was in the plane and i came in and i said, wow, and we do have these crowds elsewhere, but they said the fire marshal closed us down, wont let 12,000 people in. But then when i looked at this, i said, now i understand. Wheres the fire marshal . Fire marshal, let em in, please. Okay . Let em in. Let em in, fire marshal let em in. Our country is filled with so many amazing people. People who lift us up and inspire us. And by the way, i have one of them here. Wheres Rudy Giuliani . Rudy rudy we love rudy. Look at him. Look at him. Hes a good man. We lost one great person in a heartbreaking accident on sunday. Marlins pitcher, jose fernandez, and he was some pitcher. He died at the age of 24. I just spoke to jeff, t