Thanks for watching, sayonara. Hardball with Chris Matthews is next. The tax man cometh. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. You know those old polaroid photographs, you would take the photo and as you shook the paper, you would see the picture slowly come into view before you. Is that what were seeing with donald trump . Day after day, the real man reveals more and more of himself. We watch him on stage or read his tweets and see what he says on fox and gradually the picture comes into focus. It hasnt happened all at at once. His people get him to use the teleprompter so he wont say what he really thinks off the cuff. He cant be stopped from relentlessly be donald trump. We have the popular image of trump, the successful real estate developer, for example, who celebrates his wealth and business acumen, the man who runs casino scasinos, hotels, e airline. But then you have the other man, thats the trump that according to the times declared a 916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns. A Tax Deduction so substantial, it could have allowed him to paying any income taxes for up to 18 years. The trump camp has neither denied or confirmed the reporting. Surrogates like Chris Christie and rudy giuliani, in fact, spent the weekend saying the story says their candidate is actually a genius. Thats the word used, for successfully navigating and avoiding the tax code. Today on the trail, hillary
clinton took a swing at her opponent. His name is trump. Lets watch her. In the debate, he said it was smart to avoid paying taxes. Yesterday his campaign was bragging, it makes him a genius. Heres my question. What kind of genius loses 1 billion in a single year . This is trump to a t. Hes taken corporate excess and made a Business Model out of it. He abuses his power, games the system, puts his own interests ahead of the countrys. Its trump first and everyone else last. Shes rolling up the score. Trump defended his Business Success at a rally out in colorado today. Lets watch it. I understand the tax laws better than almost anyone, which is why i am one who can truly fix them. As a businessman and real estate
developer, i have legally used the tax laws to my benefit. Honestly, i have brilliantly i have brilliantly used those laws. The news media is now obsessed with an alleged tax filing from the 1990s, at the end of one of the most brutal economic downturns in our countrys history. I was able to use the tax laws of this country and my business acumen to dig out of the real estate mess. I reached within myself and delivered for my company, my business, my family, and the communities where hi propertied existed and i really delivered. Meanwhile, trump and the campaign are also continuing to come into focus this weekend, while advisers and supporters like Newt Gingrich and Marsha Blackburn have publicly pleaded with trump to stay on message, trump went spectacularly offscript on saturday night. He mocked Hillary Clinton for her illness, for her state of mind, and her marriage. Lets watch him. Shes supposed to fight all
of these different things. And she cant make it 15 feet to her car. Give me a break. Give me a break. Shes got bad temperament. She could actually be crazy. She should be in prison, let me tell you. She should be in prison. Hillary clintons only loyalty is t her financial contributors and to herself. I dont even think shes loyal to bill, you want to know the truth. And really, folks, really, why should she be, right . Why should she be . Wow. And for more on the real donald trump, im joined now by nbcs Hallie Jackson in richmond, virginia, right at the vp debate sight for tomorrow night. Susan page, and global editorial director, howard fineman. Hallie, youre on the site right now, but lets talk about donald trump, this weekend. Was there an effort to get him to talk along the lines that he could win the election . Ive been saying this myself. He had a winning message for weeks. The polling weve got tonight to show you shows that hes blown it. Hes blown away the role that he had a lead in this campaign. Hes now down behind her, about five points on average. That can be lethal in a campaign at this point, a month out from the election. Why doesnt he talk about the issues that got him to where he is, jobs, illegal immigration, stupid wars . Why is he talking about machado and talking Everything Else that will never get him a single vote. Right, and bill clinton and Hillary Clinton and all of these questions. He seems to be unable to help himself at times. When you look at what happened saturday night, and there was evidence of this today, his campaign wants him to be talking about jobs and about the economy and about National Security. I had an adviser, somebody close to the campaign say to me, today, i wish i didnt have to go out and talk about these
issues. I will, because the media is picking up on it, but i would rather be talking about, you know, National Security and some of these issues that have put trump where he is. The problem is, he cannot help going back after Hillary Clinton, when he feels attacked. That is what you saw saturday night in the sound bite that you played from his rally in p. A. Today, he tried to get back on message. And let it be noted on saturday, too, his campaign had a script that he was supposed to be delivering that night. And we saw again and again, him veer off that script, rather than looking at the prompter, he riffed. Toda hwas at that National Security forum, talking with veterans, trying to get back on message, but with trump, it rarely sticks. I was just thinking, of all the things you can use against Hillary Clinton in a debate, calling her crazy is nutty itself. Nobody thinks that Hillary Clinton is crazy. Shes one of the most sound minds around. You might not like the mind, but it is sound as hell. Anyway, lets look at those brandnew National Poll go ahead, hallie. Chris, i remember talking to you two months ago about something very similar to this. Donald trump takes the attacks against him and often times he turns those exact same attacks around on whoever is hitting him. When Hillary Clinton and her Campaign Comes out and calls him unhinged, for him, he turns around and calls her crazy. This fits the pattern that he has delivered on for the past six months. We used to use that when we were 5 years old, sos your old man. At 5 years old. Lets take a look at the brandnew National Polls that tell you hes been off message. Clinton leads trump by five points nationally. 4742. This is important. Thats five points. Last month, trump was ahead by two points in the same poll. Thats a shift of seven. In the new New York Times poll cbs poll there together, clinton leads by four points. Last month, the two were tied. So were seeing roughly a fivepoint shift. I want to go to howard fiman here. Howard, youre seeing even i remember you and i have watched this campaign. A fivepoint shift is a big deal. It is a huge deal, especially this late. And supposedly with an electorate thats mostly locked in. The last week that hes had is the worst political week i can remember any National Politician ever having. Im surprised hes even at 40 . That shows you havent packed it up and gone home. And thats because theres a strong constituency thats going to reach out to him regardless as an agent of change. And we know who those people are. However, he has not expanded a hes back to the core that he was at a while ago, when he and he blew an opportunity this last week, starting with the debate, continuing through today, to expand that base. Susan, if he wins the election, its still possible, the headlines in your paper, on the front page of usa today are not going because he won the battle of machado, its because
he was able to exploit a perfect storm of anger over illegal immigration, bad trade deals, and stupid wars. You can write the headline now if he wins, but hes not even writing the headline himself. And by the way, another point of politics, at this point in the campaign, the average person is paying attention. Six months ago when he was saying a lot of this stuff, a very small percentage were watching. He doesnt seem to know that he has the potential to go out on that debate platform or any one of these rallies and speak to a huge audience and change a lot of minds with what he said in the beginning. He doesnt seem to know that its the big circus now, not the little sideshow anymore. Because the i agree with you. It is not a year for steady as she goes. In fact, thats the problem that Hillary Clinton has. This is a year for change for fresh blood, for shaking things up, but he goes too far. Whats miss machado, alicia his bad treatment of somebody 20 years ago. I mean, it was bad. Its objectively bad. He treated a little person, a
person without any power, badly. You apologize and move on and say, that wasnt a good moment for me. I was under pressure like everybody else and this beauty contest stuff is a business like everybody else. There are ways you can answer it without prostrating yourself on the ground. And you can also say, ive changed my views on thing. People change their views on things like gay marriage, explain it and accept it. Hes unwilling to do it, chris. Hes just personally unwilling to be told. Sometimes you have to stoop to conquer. I mentioned trumps surrogates fanned out across the cup to defend the campaign for getting a tax break of almost 1 billion in 95. Their message, this is insane, trumps a genius. Lets watch. Our response is hes a genius. The reality a genius . Absolute genius. Its a perfectly legal application of the tax code. And he would have been a fool to not take advantage of it. Great men have big failures and they take those failures and turn them into great results. I would rather have a genius like donald trump running this country than someone like Hillary Clinton. Theres no one whos shown nor genius in their way to maneuver around the tax code, as he rightfully used the laws to do that. This is a guy who went lots of businesses went out of business in the early 1990s, he fought and clawed back to build another fortune, to create tens of thousands of more jobs and this is actually a very, very good story for donald trump. You know, hallie and everybody else, when you sit down and do your taxes, theyre not too collected to do yourself at some point, some people use the short form and look for deductions. They really do, the husband and wife sit there and sweat it out and try to be honest. Theyll take the breaks that are thrown at them, but they generally go, you know, lets be straight on this and well go to bed tonight feeling good about ourselves. Well do this honestly. And those people who the that go, im betting screwed, im paying a very high percentage, i
dont want make that money if you add together payroll tax and income tax and all the other taxes. They say, im being honest, at least. Im an honest guy, an honest woman. Then they see mr. Trump, mr. Wonderful, staking tax breaks fr millions of dollars. And they say, im a chump. Because the big shot with the big building andhe t beautiful wife showing off, that guy is bragging about, let me get this right again here, a genius. Thats what he says to his wife, i guess im not a genius, dear, because we didnt get any money back this year after paying our taxes. I guess i should study how to be a genius. Its insane, the politics of this. Forget morality. Why are they putting these guys out in the road to say hes a genius when hes playing defense . A couple of points, because that, i am told, is coming from donald trump himself. Im told by a source familiar with this process, with thinking process, that trump does believe that this tax issue is going to be overall net neutral for him. That it is not actually going to
hurt him with voters. Because, chris, of the flip side of what you are talking about, that it is potentially relatable that somebody would look for tax loopholes and Tax Deductions, because a lot of those folks, mom and dad at home or whatever, filling out their w2s, going to h r block, looking for deductions that would help them ultimately save money. But what youre seeing from donald trump surrogates and from donald trump himself today at his two stops in colorado is the portrayal of donald trump as the ultimate success story. Somebody who did maybe lose nearly 1 billion in a single year in the mid90s, but who went on to have, in his view, success, 10, 15, 20 years later. That is how trump is hoping to frame and spin this. There is a sense, potentially, starting to bubble up close to the campaign is what if there are more tax numbers that come out, tax releases that come out. How does donald trump handle that narrative. But at the moment, trump doesnt see this as harmful to his campaign. I just did the math. Most people would have to work
2,000 years to make this kind of money. 2,000 years to even get near his tax break. Former senator bill bradley of new jersey, who worked with trump on some of this stuff is, the story of donald trump is he became addicted to tax losses. He became addicted, that his business became the manipulation of the tax code are depreciation. Not the actual construction of buildings. And what trump did was continue to use the tax breaks to then turn the business into one of branding and fame and not construction of buildings. Its in the paper today. And one thing that its done is reinforce the question about why doesnt he release his tax returns . Eight out of ten americans think he ought to, it would be the right thing to do. So its underscored the fact that he hasnt done that. It raises questions about how well he ran that business and the general unfairness about not paying guess who gets to defend all this stuff tomorrow night . Mike pence. All this stuff he doesnt know
anything about. The real import to me is when donald trump gets backed into a corner, he reacts with 3 00 a. M. Tweet. The role story is if in the debate next week that hes in, the town hall on sunday, if hes backed into a corner, who knows what he says in front of those people in his town hall. Town hall is sex life. Well see if he listens. Town halls are essentially antisqueamish. They dont like conversations about infidelity and things like that. No matter what they think when theyre in the back room, they dont like it out in public. Its the ultimate test of whether he can discipline himself. Weve had a few of those tests already. Hes failed them already. And hes still a billionaire. Hes going to end up rich. Thank you, Hallie Jackson, thank you, susan page. Good assignment, hallie. And thank you, howard fineman. Coming up, donald trump continues to struggle with women voters, whether hes interrupting his opponent or
criticizing the weight of a former Miss Universe, trumps got a serious gender gap. And a new report from the Washington Post says its not going to help him with women. Reaction from kellyanne conway. And more bad news for trump, the new York Attorney general has served a cease and desist order against Trump Foundation, meaning the foundation can no longer solicit money in the state of new york. The power of parody on saturday night live continues. Lets watch a bit. My microphone is broken. She broke it with obama. She and obama stole my microphone. They took my microphone to kenya and they broke it and now its broken. [ sniffing ] do you hear that . Its picking up somebody sniffing here. I think its her sniffs. Shes been sniffing all night. Testing. Testing. Alec baldwin and kate mckinnon. What a duo. Remember tina Feys Sarah Palin . What will alec baldwin do to donald trump . Finally, my election diary for tonight, october 3rd, on the eve of the Vice President ial debate. This is hardball, the place for politics. Across new york state, from long island to buffalo, from rochester to the hudson valley, from albany to utica, Creative Business incentives, infrastructure investment, university partnerships, and the lowest taxes in decades are creating a stronger economy and the right environment in new york state for business to thrive. Let us help grow your companys tomorrow today at business. Ny. Gov
well, you saw the National Polls a moment ago. Weve got also a big round of battleground state polling, taken since last mondays debate. For that we check the hardball scoreboard. According to new polling from quinnipiac, Hillary Clinton now has a fivepoint lead over donald trump in florida. Thats a big development. Its clinton 46, trump, 41. Next in north carolina, where the poll now has clinton up by three. Its clinton, 46, trump, 43, and johnson at 7. Thats roughly where the race was in the previous poll. In pennsylvania, clinton leads by four, 4541, again, not much change since the last quinnipiac. Next to ohio, is trump still
holding his fivepoint lead. He was up four points in the previous poll. Now to virginia, where a new poll from Christopher Newport university has clinton up by seven points. Its clinton, 45, trump, 41, with johnson getting up to 12. Clintons 7point lead is in line with real clear politics average of all the polls and one point higher than last weeks poll. He needs pennsylvania and hes not getting it. One more poll to tell you about, colorado, where a new monmouth poll has clinton up by 11, clinton at 49, trump at 38. Recent polling in colorado has been meck aneck and neck. An earlier poll from july had clinton up by 14. Its a back and forth out there. Well be right back. T the specialists at ford like to show off their strengths 13 name brands. All backed by our low price tire guarantee. Yeah, were strong when it comes to tires. Right now during the big tire event, get a 140 rebate by mail on four select tires.