Tooeasy question. Who was James Buchanans vp . No one knows. John r. Breckenridge. Thatll do it for us. Well see you later. Thats great. Will this be the counterattack . Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews live from longwood, university, in farmville, virginia. And here we are, here we are, in fact, 30 miles from appomattox courthouse, where general lee surrendered to general grant, thereby ending a civil war that cost the lives of 600,000 americans. Well, tonight, were here at Longwood University for a battle in a political conflict between two very different points of view. Its the Vice President ial debate between indiana governor
mike pence, republican, against virginia senator, tim kaine, democrat. Its governor pences test tonight, obviously, to turn the battle from a defensive donald trump to an attack on Hillary Clinton. And to do so, he will need to execute a classic debate tactic, the attack from a defensive position. He needs to strike at hillary, most likely at her weak numbers on trustworthiness, at the very moment she and her running mate are assaulting trump. Trump spent the past week battling a former miss universe, defending himself against a New York Times article on his taxes, and mocking clintons health and even her marriage. Lets watch. She was the winner and you know, she gained a massive amount of weight. And it was it was a real problem. We had we had a real problem. Not only that, her attitude. The news media is now obsessed with an alleged tax filing from the 1990s. I was able to use the tax laws of this country and my business acumen to dig out of the real
estate mess. Shes supposed to fight all of these different things, and she cant make it 15 feet to her car. Give me a break. Give me a break. Hillary clintons only loyalty is to her financial contributors and to herself. I dont even think shes loyal to bill, if you want to know the truth. And really, folks, really, why should she be, right . Why should she be . Meanwhile, today, clinton again knocked trump on his taxes. Lets watch. He lost 1 billion. And as ive said repeatedly, thats hard to do when youre running casinos, but it demonstrates, i think, unequivocabl unequivocably, that he was a failure at business and he wrecked businesses, and by wrecking businesses, he wrecked the lives of his workers, he
stiffed contractors, and he generally disregarded the wellbeing of the communities, someone who is claiming to run for president based on his Business Success should be judged by that business. And i think what were finding out is deeply troubling. Well, donald trump tried to turn the attack back on clinton. Lets watch him there. She complains how ive used the tax laws of this country to my benefit. Then i ask a simple question. Why didnt she ever try to change those laws so i couldnt use them . The reason that she did not do that is her donors and contributors have used those same tax laws that i did, the same way. Tonight im joined by nbcs Andrea Mitchell, and usa todays senior political
reporter, heidi przybyla. Andrea, give us a sense of this fight from both ends . Reporter first of all, the clinton team is feeling really energized. Theyre up in two polls now by nine and ten points in two separate polls in pennsylvania, which is their firewall. Shes there today, appealing to suburban republican women in those bedroom suburbs of delaware county. And what theyre going to try to do tonight is to have, excuse me, to have tim kaine go after mike pence on all of the things that donald trump has, they think, messed up on this week, opening up all of these issues, the taxes, as well as, of course, the womens issues. They think that he can, you know, prosecute that case against mike pence. Pence, of course, they think, will be on the offensive, on the defensive, but pence is planning to go after clinton on her trust, on her reliability, and on those issues you heard donald trump bringing up today. So its going to be quite a matchup, i think, these two very policy wonkish running mates, taking on the roles of attack dogs. I wonder tonight, i know watching fighting as i grew up, big, heavyweight boxing, i always watch, the middleweight fights are always the better fights. Speaking of polls, a new nbc online tracking poll out today shows clinton beating trump by six points. Thats a pretty strong lead for Hillary Clinton. We also have new polls from several battleground states. Clinton leads trump by 11 in a new poll in colorado. Thats a big move towards hillary. And trumps ahead by five in ohio. Thats where hes been. Clinton also leads by 10 in a new monmouth poll. Thats huge. That is the firewall. Andreas right about that. Pennsylvania is the firewall. Thats where clinton will probably win the way things are going, and trump is not going to win there, the way things are going. Shes up by seven, also in virginia, another part of that firewall. And up six in one north carolina
poll, although thats much closer. In florida, she leads by five in a new quinnipiac poll. Thats another state thats going to remain close. Let me go to me other people here today. I think the most predictable thing at 9 00 tonight, besides the fact its going to be 9 00, is that tim kaine will be doing what hillarys been doing, hit him on his taxes and his treatment of women. Its so predictable, therefore, it should be easy for mike pence to predict the attack and counter it. I think mike pence knows hes here to defend donald trump or attack. Or attack, but i think you have a second line of attack that democrats or tim kaine will use. Mike pences job tonight is try to make trump look normal or seem normal to that last bastion of suburban republican women. And tim kaines job is to make mike pence look strange. And pence was put on the ticket to normalize trump, to make him acceptable to those who are
uncertain with trumps being. Women are the swing vote. If he goes after him on things like the religious freedom restoration act, which is a very important thing to young voters. If he goes after him on things like planned parenthood, defunding it in indiana, i think mike pence himself will come under attack, not just donald trump. But i dont know why you attack a vp. I would attack the top guy. What do you think . I think mike pence, theres no upside to him owning a lot of the things that tim kaine is going to try to make him own today. Hes going to try to make him own donald trump and all of these think of all of the things that have happened since the last debate, in terms of Alicia Machado and the taxes i dont think its complicated. Let me ask you both, because itll be my rhetorical question. Whats the safest thing for any politician on the republican side down the road. Defend donald trump or attack Hillary Clinton. Attack. Explain why. The Republican Party has an
existential hatred of Hillary Clinton. And shell be around. If she doesnt get elected this time, shell go again next time. And youre in a perfect position, if youre already attacking Hillary Clinton, to be attacking her now so you can do it later. Whereas defending trump is dangerous. And you also have to remember that republicans are looking for a midterm in twoigt, where they dont know how much of their own electoral base will be for donald trump. Not to mention that trump first of all, not to mention that trump didnt prosecute this case himself. This is one of things coming out of his last debate that republicans were most upset about, that he didnt take the opportunity to hit her on the clinton foundation, on libya, on benghazi, or even on the emails, which was such lowhanging foot. Mike pence has got to do what trump didnt do and go after Hillary Clinton tonight. Im absolutely convinced the tactic tonight to watch is attack from a defensive position. Everybody including all the republicans and all the commentators will say, oh, mike pence has got to defend donald trump. No, he doesnt. He could just attack Hillary Clinton. Earlier today, Hillary Clintonresponded to a question from a student about trumps comments on how women look. Why would mike pence want to comment on that tonight. Just stay away and attack hillary. You know, its shocking when women are called names and judged on the basis, solely on the basis of physical attributes. We have to stand up against that. My opponent insulted miss universe. I mean, how do you get more acclaimed than that . But it wasnt good enough. So we cant take any of this seriously anymore. We need to laugh at it. We need to refute it. We need to ignore it. And we need to stand up to it. And especially the bullying. Weve got Andrea Mitchell back. Andrea, give me a sense of what you think pence will do. I have a theory. I dont think hes playing defense tonight. What a waste of time. He cant defend trump. Trumps got to defend trump. Absolutely. I think he goes after Hillary Clinton in ways, as you just pointed out, that donald trump didnt. The emails, cybersecurity, all the things he did not open up, because he got so distracted in the debate, once she really got him off his game, by mentioning that he had inherited that company, 14 million loan from his dad. And after that, he just kept returning over and over and over again to his business issues, which were hardly what he should have been prosecuting in that debate against Hillary Clinton. So mike pence is very smart. You know, he clearly knows how to go after Hillary Clinton tonight. And you know he will have prepared a whole lot better than donald trump. Yeah, and i think pence is a very serious guy, perhaps a lot of people would say in terms of politics, too serious. But hes deadly. I want to go back to my colleagues here. Mike pence, look at the guy hes in this thing, seriously, he isnt here to have fun. He has an ideological commitment, he actually says what he believes, which
separates him from most politicians. You may not like his very conservative views on women, on abortion rights, on gay rights and a lot of women may not know them. But he is for real. That separates him from most politicians, im sorry, thats rare. And he took a job that was probably the most unpopular, unwanted job in republican politics. You see other elected republicans running for donald trump and cringing. Candidate for governor of indiana. There you go. The other issue is that mike pence may want to do the full pivot. You can call it the full 180. Youre asked a question about the same kelly ayotte question. He gets that question, would you be proud to have your children or your church see donald trump of president. Is that something which you can be of proud. Good luck trying to do a 180degree pivot answering that question. And hes got to answer it. You cant do a 180. Depends who the moderator is. Ive watched a lot of moderators who dont push a second and third time. And think about the tax issue. Donald trump has not had to answer for this in the way that mike pence will have to answer
for donald trump. Is the moderator tonight going to be tough and keep pressing like that, do you think . Its hard to say. But shes a tough reporter, shes a good recorder. I havent seen her do a debate. But i think at this moment, the media is under such pressure, as well, if she doesnt try to get him to answer that question, if she lets him go, shes going to face a lot of criticism. Where do we stand right now on the role of the moderator . Is it the fact checker or not . One of our colleagues got attacked for not Fact Checking, and another one got hit for fact what is the state of the art on that . Do you fact check or not . I think you have to do it as appropriate, you have to expect that the debaters will do a lot of Fact Checking for you. But you have to do a considerable amount of Fact Checking yourself. But each moderator has to make their own decision. But i think mike pence has an easy answer. I think hes all in with donald trump. He cannot not say, of course i would be proud, of course hes a role model. I really think that he believes in this, but on all of the
issues where trump has been arguably rude and vulgar, hell just pivot back to things that he believes Hillary Clinton has done wrong. I think he can isolate where he supports trump. He said, he can say trump has hathe guts to take on the political establishment in this country, thats an act of courage in my department and i do respect it. He can define what he likes about trump. Grownup politicians can define their answers. Here we are in virginia, Thomas Jefferson said, the whole art of politics is the art of telling the truth. If theyd only remember that. Thank you, Andrea Mitchell. Thank you, heidi prez byla and joy joy reid. Coming up, what did mike pence and tim kaine hope to publish tonight . For kaine, it might be to do no harm, but after the rough week donald trump has had, pence might have the sharper challenge. He has to break the clinton charge if he doesnt, whos going to do it . Coming up at the top of the hour, ill be joining Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow as we get ready for tonights debate. And then tim kaine and mike pence go face to face in the
only Vice President ial debate for the Vice President s. Well be back with full coverage of the debate and ill be back here covering everything that happens tonight until 1 00 a. M. Eastern. Were sticking with you. Hardballs coming back, and this is a special edition of hardball live from Longwood University in farmville, virginia, site of the Vice President ial debate. As a supervisor at pg e, its my job to protect public safety, keeping the power lines clear, while also protecting the environment. The Natural World is a beautiful thing, the work that we do helps us protect it. Public education is definitely a big part of our job, to teach our customers about the best type of trees
to plant around the power lines. We want to keep the power on for our customers. We want to keep our community safe. This is our community, this is where we live. We need to make sure that we have a beautiful place for our children to live. Together, were building a better california. Its a wild night here. Look at these people all right. You know, this is [ cheers and applause ] were out here in the country, this isnt some suburb in Bedroom Community of virginia, this is way out in the country here. Live from Longwood University in
farmville, virginia, for tonights Vice President ial debate. By the way, everybody knows, women make up a larger share of the electorate than men. Everybody keeps forgetting this, more women voters than male voters. Anyway, today, theyre getting the fullcourt press from Hillary Clinton. Two of clintons most powerful surrogates, Michelle Obama, and senator Elizabeth Warren hit the campaign trail today to exploit trumps terrible week and boost turnout. Here they go. If a candidate regularly demeans and humiliates women, making cruel and insulting comments about our bodies, criticizing how we look, how we act, well, sadly, thats who that candidate really is. Well, shes good. And with good reason, according to nbcs most recent Online Survey among women likely voters, a majority 52 said they support clinton compared to just 34 who say they support trump. Thats quite a spread. Down here in farmville, it will be up to both Vice President ial
candidates to make the hard sell for both of the people at the top of their tickets, obviously, theyre the big surrogates, the vp nominees. Governor mike pence will have the more challenging task, with of course, because after a bad week, some people say a horrible week for trump, it will be up to him to turn the battle against Hillary Clinton, and thats a challenge. Pence is strongly prolife, of course, and in 2015, passed a controversial religious freedom bill that gave stronger legal defenses to business ifs they refused to serve gay people. Anyway, heres how he described himself when he accepted the nomination for vp. Im a christian, a conservative, and a republican, in that order. Well, tim kaine, who during the 2012 senate election, carried 56 of women voters in virginia will have to defend his own complicated views on abortion. Whether hes personally prolife, but well get to that. For more, im joined by senator amy klobuchar, democrat from minnesota, and virginia governor, terry mcauliffe. Both are clinton supporters, bigtime
anyway, thank you. Thank you, governor. This is this is something okay, i really love this trip down here. Welcome to virginia. I love coming down here tonight. Great place. Farmville. Youre both, i know, besides being statespersons and men and women of the world who care about this country, youre also political tacticians and strategists. You know, what is lets try, youre both here supporting secretary clinton and tim kaine, whos a very likable guy. We all like tim kaine. But let me ask you, tell me about that battle between the two different personalities, mike pence and tim kaine. Size them up, as debaters, as personalities. First of all, both very strong. Ive known tim now for two decades. I have known governor pence for a long time. I served a as chairman of the National Governors association, he has a much harder deal tonight. Tim kaine talks about Hillary Clintons vision, build the middle class, getting people back to work. Mike pence tonight has to defend all of the things youve been talking about on this show. I think he has a m