Transcripts For MSNBCW Hardball With Chris Matthews 20180423

Wallace joins us by phone right now. Nicolle, this is amaze. We didnt know what had happened until now, that he was in serious situation at the hospital. Yeah, listen, for those of us who know and love the bush family, its another heartbreak. But in some ways the conversation weve all been having since we learned about this yesterday is that its sort of beautiful. I mean, you can still die of a broken heart. You think about the week that this man had. He held his wifes hand while she died. He went to the church where people, the public went to greet barbara bush as she was there to welcome. That wasnt part of the plan. He, you know, for the most part was stoic during the funeral. And he has just had an unbelievable emotional week. And he is not of Superb Health himself. To hear this week took a toll on his health is not a tremendous surprise. But its just, you know, i mean you and i both covered the funeral saturday, and you heard me say it. It feels like the beginning of the end of an era. And certainly on the heels of the loss of barbara bush, to think about losing this man who whether you voted for him or didnt vote for hims his post presidency has been everything that you hope for. He formed deep and meaningful bonds with the man who defeated hip, bill clinton. He was awarded the preshlg medal of freedom by president barack obama. To republicans in exile, he is everything that is good and great about a party that we dont recognize anymore. So its a blow on so many levels to hear that he is today. He apparently got through saturday night dinner with his family after the funeral and the burial, but then when he awoke sunday morning, i guess emotionally it was the first time he had been alone on this earth since the 40s. Thats a really, really important thing to note. And, you know, you read about these things. You read about what that blow can do to your physical health, and that might have been it. He was taken to the hospital sunday morning. I understand yesterday was a more difficult day for himmelly than today has been. Theyre using words like stable. But hes i think the family statement says, he is in intensive care, and those of us who love him are praying. But its not always clear what were praying for. Obviously he spent 73 years with her. And its hard not to think that at some level hed be happier and be at Greater Peace with his beloved wife. But, you know, certainly i could speak for his kids werent ready. They didnt see this coming. He got through the week looking well and looking strong and trying to support and cheer others, if you have that footage of him at the church, which was, you know, in secret service lingo an otr. He wasnt supposed to go to the church the day before the official funeral, which was only for invited guests. And he saw it on tv and wanted to go. He was going to be there five minutes. He spent 20. So it was, you know, it would be a lot for you or me. But i think for someone of his health and he had a 73year love aware with barbara bush, may have been too much for him physically. Nicolle, you were great on saturday. I was great to hear your words after the service. Thank you so much to nicolle wallace. Joining us now is president ial historian jon meacham. You were also fantastic, as though was it jeb who took a shot at you saying you were a bit too long on saturday. But i thought you were very sublime. Tell us what you know about this emotional connection between the former president and the former first lady that apparently has affected him physically and medically in the last 24 hours. Well, this was sunday morning was the first morning he woke up without her in his life since shortly after pearl harbor. So i think were lets just pause for someone second and think about that. For much of the american century, they have been together. They have faced the remarkable vicissitudes of political and familial life. They raised a big, wonderful family. They lost a daughter to leukemia. When they got married in january of 45, there was every expectation that he would be headed back for the invasion of the home islands. She, as i was privileged to say on saturday, she was one of those american women who worked on an Assembly Line and who waited and watched in the long hours of the night. For him, i think all of us have who have been lucky enough to observe that marriage, and in fact the whole country has, its always been incredibly genuine. And i think that he in the last years since he became went into the wheelchair, which has now been about six years ago, as you know, chris, he was the most active of men. One of the great athletes who was ever president , actually. Yeah. Was always moving. He was 65 i used to say he was 65 years old for 20 years. And then all of the sudden one di he was 86. You know, i know this. He was saying last week he wants to go to maine. He believes that life goes on. And i think he would like to be here longer for his kids. But well see. Its more or less out of his hands. And honestly, there hasnt been much that has been out of this mans hands. He became president of the united states, not out of any traditional political base. He became president when he from one part of the party that was fading in influence as he was rising. And he rose to the pinnacle of power because he had this remarkable persistent, understated charisma. And one definition of charm is the ability to make you love someone without your quite knowing why at first. And george bush had that. And thats why he for a time had all of our destinies in his hands. Jon meacham, youre a great historian and youre a great eulogyist. Thank you for a wonderful jeweuy on saturday. Were going to continue to follow any developments on the condition of former president bush. But now to the president we have today, to President Trump, with his longtime fixer. Talk about change of pace Michael Cohen under investigation. President trump insist head will remain loyal, cohen will, and lashing out at those who say otherwise. But the president is also hedging his bets on Michael Cohen. His spokesperson refused to rule out a pardon for Michael Cohen. Here is Sarah Huckabee sanders. You didnt close the door one way or the other on the president pardoning Michael Cohen. What is your whats your read on that right now . Its hard to close the door on something that hasnt taken place. I dont like to discuss or comment on hypothetical situations that may or may not ever happen. I would refer you to personal attorneys to comment on anything specific regarding that case. But we dont have anything at this point. Well, all this cosms after multiple outlets report that cohen, who is well versed in trumps business dealings, all his dealings in fact including women, could put the flip on the president , putting him in deeper legal jeopardy with the ongoing mueller investigation. One story in particular appears to have struck rat trumps nerves. A report this weekend in the New York Times paints a devastating picture of trumps abusive relationship with cohen over the years, suggesting that trump has done little to deserve the kind of loyalty he says he is now counting on. Thats a hell of a story right there, Maggie Haberman of the times. For years mr. Trump treated cohen poorly, with dismissive insults and at least twice threat of being fired. According to interviews with half a dozen people familiar with their relationship. Wow. As trumps former political adviser said on the record, donald goes out of his way to treat him, that would be Michael Cohen, garbage. Thats pure stone talk by the way. I should point out stone accompanied trump and his future first lady back in 1999 on a Hardball College Tour there he is sitting next to melania back when trump was considering running the first time. Furthermore, the New York Times reports since the raid, mr. Cohen has told associates he feels isolated. That doesnt bode well for the president if he is currenting on cohen to remain silent. Responding to that story, the president said today most people will flip if the government lets them out of trouble, even if it means lying or making up stories. Sorry, i dont see michael doing that, despite the horrible witchhunt. Actually, its a snitch hunt at this point. Were looking for somebody throughout to tell us the truth. What the president doesnt say is why he believes cohens possible cooperation would pose any threat to him. Think about that. Here is how Sarah Huckabee sanders answered that question today. What is he worried Michael Cohen could flip over . I think he said even that there isnt anything there for that to happen. Why not tweet that, then . Why open the opportunity for him to flip it, suggest that he something to hide . No, i dont think the president has anything to hide. Hinge hazy been quite clear on that. Joining us are natasha bertrand, staff writer for the atlantic, Eugene Robinson and barbara mcquade, a former u. S. Attorney. We have a lot to talk about after we open up about the sad news about the former president. Here we are in realtime. We have a snitch about the snitch it look likes. Let me go to natasha on this. What do you make of this . Trump is out there throwing spiritual bouquets the way of this guy, blowing kisses, telling hell never rat on me. And at the same time we hear from the New York Times he has been dumping on the guy, treated him like garbage for years. What goes around, as we say, gene comes around. Where the trumpcohen relationship used to be a oneway street where trump would really treat Michael Cohen like garbage. You talk to his associates. This is known . This is wellknown. This is wellknown that trump took Michael Cohen for granted and took his loyalty for granted. And cohen has an apartment or condo in trump towers, one of them, with all this glorianna stuff about trump it in he glorifies the guy and the guy trashes him. In his office in 30 rock when i walked in a couple months ago to do an interview with him, it was pretty much a shrine to donald trump. Trump tower. No, Michael Cohen has an office at 30 rock. Thats right. Our building. But it was pretty much a photo of Michael Cohens daughter and surrounded by inauguration paraphernalia, photo of himself with the president. Michael cohen really looks up to donald trump. Do you think Trumps Office has pictures of Michael Cohen . Somehow i doubt it. Gene, how many times in washington have you heard that line, what Goes Around Comes Around . You treat people like dirt, somehow they end up on your jury at some point. Clearly, that sort of treatment has not bothered Michael Cohen up to now, because he has remained with donald trump and seems to relish in being his fixer, his goto guy, his ray donovan, as he calls himself. Kind of ridiculously. Look, everybody flips, right . Basically, everybody the mueller m. O. Right. If federal prosecutors have something on you, and they want you to tell them something, they will get you theyll get you to tell it. They have federal prosecutor is about the most powerful person in the country in terms of what he can do to your life. Who was it, was it chuck colson if you grab them by the what, the hearts and minds will follow. They grab them by all the tender parts and squeeze. And people talk. Either you answer the questions they have or you know, you go to prison. And you face financial ruin. Barbara, let me ask you about this. And the pattern is so clear. Because you start with flynn and you go to papadopoulos. Ill go through this list of all these kato kalin characters, all these available witnesses. But they all seem to have criminal exposures as you say in the business. A lot of exposure. And this guy has been covering for trump and apparently its his job to take care of any women problems, whether its one nightstands, affairs, whatever, shutting them up brutally by selling their story to somebody who never print it or making sure they will never say anything to anybody with the disclosure agreements. He has a lot of money to spend to keep people quiet. And it looks like thats his job. It looks like he might be exposed for some legal pressure there. Yeah. One point i want to make is this tweet from President Trump is so harmful where he suggests that prosecutors will encourage someone to flip and lie and make things up to build their case that is absolutely not the case. It would be unethical and unwise. Because a jury needs to understand that a witness whose testifying has that exposure. And so a prosecutor would corroborate any of that testimony with independent evidence like phone records, bank records, other statements. Which they have, barbara. They have all that stuff. They cleaned out Michael Cohens office, his laptop, his tablet, his phones, his apartment, and his the hotel room he uses. And his safety deposit box or safe. Is it a bank . I dont know if this they have it at the bank or from his office. But they have all his secret records. So we dont know yet whether Michael Cohen will be charged with anything. But certainly the prosecutors will be armed with sufficient evidence to review from all of these documents from his office. And if they do bank fraud, mail fraud, and fec violations have already posted what theyre going to hit them with. If and when they do charge them with those things, ive seen this, as eugene said, so frequently as someone who pledges their eternal loyalty to associates does often end up cooperating with prosecutors. Once they see what their criminal exposure, the loyalty to the boss becomes far less important than the loyalty to their family. And when theyre making a decision about do i want to go to prison for 10 or 12 years to the prison for the boss or come home sooner to my family, often its an easy choice. The president also singled out the coauthor of the New York Times report, veteran journalist Maggie Haberman saying the New York Times and the third rate recorder named Maggie Haberman known as crooked hillary flunky who i dont speak with and something to do with or are going out of their way to destroy Michael Cohen and his relationship with me the hope that he will flip. While the president said he doesnt speak to haberman he has given her six exclusive interviews since november and he has been photographed with her inside the oval office. How can a president lie like this in our face when we have so much graphic evidence that he is lying. It seems whenever the president is confronted with something he doesnt like to acknowledge he retreats to a very he just goes in the complete opposite direction. He is the front page of the New York Times more than i can count. She is not third rate in any way. Its i never spoke to Maggie Haberman, i never stayed overnight in moscow. These are things donald trump says when he is confronted with realities. The other thing i will also note about Michael Cohen is he does not necessarily need to flip in order for prosecutors to get information on donald trump. I mean, the fbi raided Michael Cohens office and his residences. And there were a trove of documents that the fbi and the prosecutors will now be able to sift through. If we assume that Michael Cohen will stay loyal and wont actually flip on the president , even that may be very unlikely. But he may not need to. He went after the Washington Post. He also went after you guys. I never used the term mr. Magoo. I never used the term mr. Peepers. Wally cox. But he is now denying what we know he did. Yeah, i know. Look. This is sort of classic trump reaction, right . I dont even know her. I would never say that. I would never do that. Even if it something he is on film saying and doing, he would never say or do it. So thats his defense mechanism. And so its what we expect of him. Back up. He is president of the united states, and we expect him to tell these ridiculous lies when he is cornered. We have defined deviancy downward. He reminds me of Sergeant Schultz in hogans heroes. I dont know nothing. Natasha bertrand, thank you, gene robinson. The progress he has made in dealing with north korea there is still a gaping divide between what he is saying and how some u. S. Officials are ha handwringing. Imagine that guy with that haircut beating trump in the pr war that guy, kim jongun, unbelievable. Bad guy to lose to. Plus, more trouble for another trump cabinet member. New reporting shows scott pruitt may be even more of a swamp creature than previously thought. Now the white house support for pruitt may be coming to an end. Its fading out. You can hate. And 2018 is shaping up to be the year of trump. Actually, republicans across the country are trying to out [ trumpet playing ] as theyre trying to win their primaries. By the way, this is in the primaries they talk like this. Im going to finish with trump watch. In north korea, i think he is about to shoot the moon, as we say in hearts. This is hardball, where the action is. Dont know what it is bout that little gals lovin. But i like it, i love it, i want some more of it we know you love it, so get more of it, with applebees new bigger bolder grill combos. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. So what does the dishwasher do . New cascade platinum lets your dishwasher be the dish washer. Three cleaning agents dissolve, lift and rinse away food the first time. New cascade platinum. President trump and the first lady welcome french president macron and his wife to the white house early this evening, kicking off the first state visit of the trump presidency. During macrons threeday stay, the two Superb Health<\/a> himself. To hear this week took a toll on his health is not a tremendous surprise. But its just, you know, i mean you and i both covered the funeral saturday, and you heard me say it. It feels like the beginning of the end of an era. And certainly on the heels of the loss of barbara bush, to think about losing this man who whether you voted for him or didnt vote for hims his post presidency has been everything that you hope for. He formed deep and meaningful bonds with the man who defeated hip, bill clinton. He was awarded the preshlg medal of freedom by president barack obama. To republicans in exile, he is everything that is good and great about a party that we dont recognize anymore. So its a blow on so many levels to hear that he is today. He apparently got through saturday night dinner with his family after the funeral and the burial, but then when he awoke sunday morning, i guess emotionally it was the first time he had been alone on this earth since the 40s. Thats a really, really important thing to note. And, you know, you read about these things. You read about what that blow can do to your physical health, and that might have been it. He was taken to the hospital sunday morning. I understand yesterday was a more difficult day for himmelly than today has been. Theyre using words like stable. But hes i think the family statement says, he is in intensive care, and those of us who love him are praying. But its not always clear what were praying for. Obviously he spent 73 years with her. And its hard not to think that at some level hed be happier and be at Greater Peace<\/a> with his beloved wife. But, you know, certainly i could speak for his kids werent ready. They didnt see this coming. He got through the week looking well and looking strong and trying to support and cheer others, if you have that footage of him at the church, which was, you know, in secret service lingo an otr. He wasnt supposed to go to the church the day before the official funeral, which was only for invited guests. And he saw it on tv and wanted to go. He was going to be there five minutes. He spent 20. So it was, you know, it would be a lot for you or me. But i think for someone of his health and he had a 73year love aware with barbara bush, may have been too much for him physically. Nicolle, you were great on saturday. I was great to hear your words after the service. Thank you so much to nicolle wallace. Joining us now is president ial historian jon meacham. You were also fantastic, as though was it jeb who took a shot at you saying you were a bit too long on saturday. But i thought you were very sublime. Tell us what you know about this emotional connection between the former president and the former first lady that apparently has affected him physically and medically in the last 24 hours. Well, this was sunday morning was the first morning he woke up without her in his life since shortly after pearl harbor. So i think were lets just pause for someone second and think about that. For much of the american century, they have been together. They have faced the remarkable vicissitudes of political and familial life. They raised a big, wonderful family. They lost a daughter to leukemia. When they got married in january of 45, there was every expectation that he would be headed back for the invasion of the home islands. She, as i was privileged to say on saturday, she was one of those american women who worked on an Assembly Line<\/a> and who waited and watched in the long hours of the night. For him, i think all of us have who have been lucky enough to observe that marriage, and in fact the whole country has, its always been incredibly genuine. And i think that he in the last years since he became went into the wheelchair, which has now been about six years ago, as you know, chris, he was the most active of men. One of the great athletes who was ever president , actually. Yeah. Was always moving. He was 65 i used to say he was 65 years old for 20 years. And then all of the sudden one di he was 86. You know, i know this. He was saying last week he wants to go to maine. He believes that life goes on. And i think he would like to be here longer for his kids. But well see. Its more or less out of his hands. And honestly, there hasnt been much that has been out of this mans hands. He became president of the united states, not out of any traditional political base. He became president when he from one part of the party that was fading in influence as he was rising. And he rose to the pinnacle of power because he had this remarkable persistent, understated charisma. And one definition of charm is the ability to make you love someone without your quite knowing why at first. And george bush had that. And thats why he for a time had all of our destinies in his hands. Jon meacham, youre a great historian and youre a great eulogyist. Thank you for a wonderful jeweuy on saturday. Were going to continue to follow any developments on the condition of former president bush. But now to the president we have today, to President Trump<\/a>, with his longtime fixer. Talk about change of pace Michael Cohen<\/a> under investigation. President trump insist head will remain loyal, cohen will, and lashing out at those who say otherwise. But the president is also hedging his bets on Michael Cohen<\/a>. His spokesperson refused to rule out a pardon for Michael Cohen<\/a>. Here is Sarah Huckabee<\/a> sanders. You didnt close the door one way or the other on the president pardoning Michael Cohen<\/a>. What is your whats your read on that right now . Its hard to close the door on something that hasnt taken place. I dont like to discuss or comment on hypothetical situations that may or may not ever happen. I would refer you to personal attorneys to comment on anything specific regarding that case. But we dont have anything at this point. Well, all this cosms after multiple outlets report that cohen, who is well versed in trumps business dealings, all his dealings in fact including women, could put the flip on the president , putting him in deeper legal jeopardy with the ongoing mueller investigation. One story in particular appears to have struck rat trumps nerves. A report this weekend in the New York Times<\/a> paints a devastating picture of trumps abusive relationship with cohen over the years, suggesting that trump has done little to deserve the kind of loyalty he says he is now counting on. Thats a hell of a story right there, Maggie Haberman<\/a> of the times. For years mr. Trump treated cohen poorly, with dismissive insults and at least twice threat of being fired. According to interviews with half a dozen people familiar with their relationship. Wow. As trumps former political adviser said on the record, donald goes out of his way to treat him, that would be Michael Cohen<\/a>, garbage. Thats pure stone talk by the way. I should point out stone accompanied trump and his future first lady back in 1999 on a Hardball College Tour<\/a> there he is sitting next to melania back when trump was considering running the first time. Furthermore, the New York Times<\/a> reports since the raid, mr. Cohen has told associates he feels isolated. That doesnt bode well for the president if he is currenting on cohen to remain silent. Responding to that story, the president said today most people will flip if the government lets them out of trouble, even if it means lying or making up stories. Sorry, i dont see michael doing that, despite the horrible witchhunt. Actually, its a snitch hunt at this point. Were looking for somebody throughout to tell us the truth. What the president doesnt say is why he believes cohens possible cooperation would pose any threat to him. Think about that. Here is how Sarah Huckabee<\/a> sanders answered that question today. What is he worried Michael Cohen<\/a> could flip over . I think he said even that there isnt anything there for that to happen. Why not tweet that, then . Why open the opportunity for him to flip it, suggest that he something to hide . No, i dont think the president has anything to hide. Hinge hazy been quite clear on that. Joining us are natasha bertrand, staff writer for the atlantic, Eugene Robinson<\/a> and barbara mcquade, a former u. S. Attorney. We have a lot to talk about after we open up about the sad news about the former president. Here we are in realtime. We have a snitch about the snitch it look likes. Let me go to natasha on this. What do you make of this . Trump is out there throwing spiritual bouquets the way of this guy, blowing kisses, telling hell never rat on me. And at the same time we hear from the New York Times<\/a> he has been dumping on the guy, treated him like garbage for years. What goes around, as we say, gene comes around. Where the trumpcohen relationship used to be a oneway street where trump would really treat Michael Cohen<\/a> like garbage. You talk to his associates. This is known . This is wellknown. This is wellknown that trump took Michael Cohen<\/a> for granted and took his loyalty for granted. And cohen has an apartment or condo in trump towers, one of them, with all this glorianna stuff about trump it in he glorifies the guy and the guy trashes him. In his office in 30 rock when i walked in a couple months ago to do an interview with him, it was pretty much a shrine to donald trump. Trump tower. No, Michael Cohen<\/a> has an office at 30 rock. Thats right. Our building. But it was pretty much a photo of Michael Cohen<\/a>s daughter and surrounded by inauguration paraphernalia, photo of himself with the president. Michael cohen really looks up to donald trump. Do you think Trumps Office<\/a> has pictures of Michael Cohen<\/a> . Somehow i doubt it. Gene, how many times in washington have you heard that line, what Goes Around Comes Around<\/a> . You treat people like dirt, somehow they end up on your jury at some point. Clearly, that sort of treatment has not bothered Michael Cohen<\/a> up to now, because he has remained with donald trump and seems to relish in being his fixer, his goto guy, his ray donovan, as he calls himself. Kind of ridiculously. Look, everybody flips, right . Basically, everybody the mueller m. O. Right. If federal prosecutors have something on you, and they want you to tell them something, they will get you theyll get you to tell it. They have federal prosecutor is about the most powerful person in the country in terms of what he can do to your life. Who was it, was it chuck colson if you grab them by the what, the hearts and minds will follow. They grab them by all the tender parts and squeeze. And people talk. Either you answer the questions they have or you know, you go to prison. And you face financial ruin. Barbara, let me ask you about this. And the pattern is so clear. Because you start with flynn and you go to papadopoulos. Ill go through this list of all these kato kalin characters, all these available witnesses. But they all seem to have criminal exposures as you say in the business. A lot of exposure. And this guy has been covering for trump and apparently its his job to take care of any women problems, whether its one nightstands, affairs, whatever, shutting them up brutally by selling their story to somebody who never print it or making sure they will never say anything to anybody with the disclosure agreements. He has a lot of money to spend to keep people quiet. And it looks like thats his job. It looks like he might be exposed for some legal pressure there. Yeah. One point i want to make is this tweet from President Trump<\/a> is so harmful where he suggests that prosecutors will encourage someone to flip and lie and make things up to build their case that is absolutely not the case. It would be unethical and unwise. Because a jury needs to understand that a witness whose testifying has that exposure. And so a prosecutor would corroborate any of that testimony with independent evidence like phone records, bank records, other statements. Which they have, barbara. They have all that stuff. They cleaned out Michael Cohen<\/a>s office, his laptop, his tablet, his phones, his apartment, and his the hotel room he uses. And his safety deposit box or safe. Is it a bank . I dont know if this they have it at the bank or from his office. But they have all his secret records. So we dont know yet whether Michael Cohen<\/a> will be charged with anything. But certainly the prosecutors will be armed with sufficient evidence to review from all of these documents from his office. And if they do bank fraud, mail fraud, and fec violations have already posted what theyre going to hit them with. If and when they do charge them with those things, ive seen this, as eugene said, so frequently as someone who pledges their eternal loyalty to associates does often end up cooperating with prosecutors. Once they see what their criminal exposure, the loyalty to the boss becomes far less important than the loyalty to their family. And when theyre making a decision about do i want to go to prison for 10 or 12 years to the prison for the boss or come home sooner to my family, often its an easy choice. The president also singled out the coauthor of the New York Times<\/a> report, veteran journalist Maggie Haberman<\/a> saying the New York Times<\/a> and the third rate recorder named Maggie Haberman<\/a> known as crooked hillary flunky who i dont speak with and something to do with or are going out of their way to destroy Michael Cohen<\/a> and his relationship with me the hope that he will flip. While the president said he doesnt speak to haberman he has given her six exclusive interviews since november and he has been photographed with her inside the oval office. How can a president lie like this in our face when we have so much graphic evidence that he is lying. It seems whenever the president is confronted with something he doesnt like to acknowledge he retreats to a very he just goes in the complete opposite direction. He is the front page of the New York Times<\/a> more than i can count. She is not third rate in any way. Its i never spoke to Maggie Haberman<\/a>, i never stayed overnight in moscow. These are things donald trump says when he is confronted with realities. The other thing i will also note about Michael Cohen<\/a> is he does not necessarily need to flip in order for prosecutors to get information on donald trump. I mean, the fbi raided Michael Cohen<\/a>s office and his residences. And there were a trove of documents that the fbi and the prosecutors will now be able to sift through. If we assume that Michael Cohen<\/a> will stay loyal and wont actually flip on the president , even that may be very unlikely. But he may not need to. He went after the Washington Post<\/a>. He also went after you guys. I never used the term mr. Magoo. I never used the term mr. Peepers. Wally cox. But he is now denying what we know he did. Yeah, i know. Look. This is sort of classic trump reaction, right . I dont even know her. I would never say that. I would never do that. Even if it something he is on film saying and doing, he would never say or do it. So thats his defense mechanism. And so its what we expect of him. Back up. He is president of the united states, and we expect him to tell these ridiculous lies when he is cornered. We have defined deviancy downward. He reminds me of Sergeant Schultz<\/a> in hogans heroes. I dont know nothing. Natasha bertrand, thank you, gene robinson. The progress he has made in dealing with north korea there is still a gaping divide between what he is saying and how some u. S. Officials are ha handwringing. Imagine that guy with that haircut beating trump in the pr war that guy, kim jongun, unbelievable. Bad guy to lose to. Plus, more trouble for another trump cabinet member. New reporting shows scott pruitt may be even more of a swamp creature than previously thought. Now the white house support for pruitt may be coming to an end. Its fading out. You can hate. And 2018 is shaping up to be the year of trump. Actually, republicans across the country are trying to out [ trumpet playing ] as theyre trying to win their primaries. By the way, this is in the primaries they talk like this. Im going to finish with trump watch. In north korea, i think he is about to shoot the moon, as we say in hearts. This is hardball, where the action is. Dont know what it is bout that little gals lovin. But i like it, i love it, i want some more of it we know you love it, so get more of it, with applebees new bigger bolder grill combos. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. So what does the dishwasher do . New cascade platinum lets your dishwasher be the dish washer. Three cleaning agents dissolve, lift and rinse away food the first time. New cascade platinum. President trump and the first lady welcome french president macron and his wife to the white house early this evening, kicking off the first state visit of the trump presidency. During macrons threeday stay, the two World Leaders<\/a> are expected to discuss a variety of Foreign Policy<\/a> issues including the Iran Nuclear Deal<\/a> and the crisis ongoing in syria. The visit will include plenty of pomp and circumstance. This evening they boarded the helicopter for a tour of the washington monuments before flying to unbelievable mt. Vernon. What an unbelievable place to have dinner for anybody. Tomorrow President Trump<\/a> and the first lady will host the macrons for their first date dinner. Trump hasnt invited any members of congress from the opposing party. No democrats allowed. Members of the media also not allowed. Not invited. Well be right back. T. And a little nervous. But not so much about what market volatility may do to their retirement savings. Thats because they have a shield annuity from Brighthouse Financial<\/a>, which allows them to take advantage of Growth Opportunities<\/a> in up markets, while maintaining a level of protection in down markets. So they can focus on new things like exotic snacks. Talk with your advisor about shield annuities from Brighthouse Financial<\/a> established by metlife. Were finally back out in our yard, but so are they. Introducing scotts turf builder triple action. It kills weeds, prevents crabgrass and feeds so grass can thrive, guaranteed. Our backyard is back. This is a scotts yard. Welcome back to hardball. Late last week, north Korean Leader<\/a> kim jongun announced his regime would suspend nuclear and longrange missile tests. Over the weekend, President Trump<\/a> touted that announcement, writing on twitter, wow, we havent given up anything and they have agreed to denuclearization. So great for world. Site closure and no more testing. Well, the fact is south koreas president told reporters last week that north korea has expressed willingness to discuss the possibility of denuclearization, thats it. Still, raising questions over whether he was overconfident heading into the upcoming meeting with kim. But on morning joe, Richard Haass<\/a> said its too early to evaluate the american negotiating position. Everybody needs to take a deep breath here. Trump is being criticized for having given away the store. He has not given away the store. What matters in a negotiation is not where you begin, its where you end up. Well said. Meanwhile, White House Press<\/a> secretary Sarah Sanders<\/a> was asked if the administration planned to take north koreas overtures at face value. Certainly were not going to make mistakes from previous administrations. And were not going to take the north koreans simply at their word. Like i said before, and weve said many times before, the maximum Pressure Campaign<\/a> is going to continue until we see concrete actions taken by look, were not naive in this process. Im joined by susan page, Washington Bureau<\/a> chief for usa today. Covering the funeral on saturday, i just felt great to cover such a great marriage and to honor the marriage. And the marriage and honor our country. Its one of the great partnerships going back to world war ii. Its great stuff in any way you look at it in human terms. What do you think about it when you think of those two, because year writing a biography of mrs. Bush . You know, when i interviewed mrs. Bush over the last six months, she was not afraid of dying, but she did not want to die before her husband died. And i actually think that was also her husbands view, that it wasnt that he was afraid of dying, but he didnt want to leave her first. And so in that way they were sort of keeping each other alive. You know, their devotion to each other was pretty fierce these last few years as their health has failed. And that has been a really remarkable thing to see. Lets go from the sublime to something else, real life politics. This chance we have to end the Nuclear Program<\/a> or frung indicate it in some way, perhaps a la iran. I cant think of trump is heading into cut a deal with kim jongun to limit their Nuclear Program<\/a>. His measuring rod may well be the success previous president barack obama had with iran. It cant be get rid of all nukes, any chance of nukes. Hell just be wasting his time, wont he . Yes. The question is President Trump<\/a> willing to make some of the compromises youre going to have to make to reach a deal with north korea. And whats odd about these the summit that we expect to have happen in may or june is usually before leaders go into a summit like, that you know whats going to come out the other end. You understand the deal that has been precooked by meticulous negotiations, by officials at lower levels. And this time were going no with two kind of impulsive new leaders, impulsive leaders known for not taking that course without having everything worked out in advance. And it is i think through that President Trump<\/a> has great ambitions to get something historic here. But even in the best of times with the best negotiators, the longest history in Foreign Policy<\/a>, that would be a high achievement. Thank you so much, susan page of usa today. Anyway, the Senate Foreign<\/a> Relations Committee<\/a> voted late today to support the nomination of mike pompeo as the next secretary of state to the senate floor. We learned last week that pompeo travelled to north korea for secret talks with kim jongun over easter weekend. His nomination was reported to the senate with a favorable recommendation today along party lines with a lastminute reversal from Kentucky Republican<\/a> rand paul. He voted for it. Massachusetts democratic senator ed markey is a member of the Foreign Relations<\/a> committee. Senator markey, a couple of thoughts. But im sure theyre running through you already. What is the best thing that comes out of a deal with kim jongun on Nuclear Weapons<\/a> . And what is the worst thing that comes out of a meeting between him and our president . Well, of course the best thing would be if there actually was a pathway towards denuclearization that was create created because of this negotiation. The worst thing that could happen is if there is no agreement and that donald trump then reverts to his fire and fury language, his talk of Preemptive Nuclear<\/a> strike against north korea because they wont give up their Nuclear Program<\/a>. And that would be absolutely catastrophic. So i think its very important here to understand it when the president says that that kimberly has already agreed to denuclearization, that has not happened, and its going to be a long pathway to every reach that day. And in the interim, the president is going to have to take the military option off the table because that would be catastrophic. You know, ever since vietnam, you and i have learned we dont get things our way. In the end, you have to negotiate. Walter cronkite said that, the tet back in 68. You got to cut a deal. What is a reasonable deal . Can we expect to have a deal below going further than iran, Something Like<\/a> iran where they agree to five years, ten years, some sort of delay in their programs, would that work with both sides of the aisle . Well, the difference is that iran does not have Nuclear Weapons<\/a>. And korea has had Nuclear Weapons<\/a> for ten years. Sure. So the difference is to in one instance of having the iranians not get Nuclear Weapons<\/a> in return for a financial concession, here its going to be different. Because north korea is paranoid of kim believes that he could be killed. And so its going to take a long patient negotiation to ever reach a day where he can be convinced that if he gives up all of his Nuclear Weapons<\/a>, that it would not lead to his own death. And they think is not going to be an easy goal to achieve. Well, there is nobody i can think of as as a u. S. Far in politics that can be more concern and acting on the danger of Nuclear Warfare<\/a> than you, sir. Thank you, senator ed markey of massachusetts. Thank you. Appreciate it. Up next, more headlines about scott pruitt. According to a new report, he was a swamp creature long before his time in washington. And now it looks like support for pruitt may be starting to wane. Were also learning about a little deal here. Apparently dow youve do get access for cheap rent. This is hardball, where the action. I was wondering if an electric toothbrush really cleans better than a manual. And my hygienist says it does but theyre not all the same. Who knew . I had no idea. So she said, look for one thats shaped like a dental tool with a round brush head. Go pro with oralb. Oralbs rounded brush head surrounds each tooth to gently remove more plaque, and oralb is the First Electric<\/a> toothbrush brand accepted by the American Dental Association<\/a> for its effectiveness and safety. My mouth feels so clean. Ill only use an oralb. Oralb. Brush like a pro. Need a change of scenery . The kayak price forecast tool tells you whether to wait or book your flight now. So you can be confident youre getting the best price. Giddyup kayak. Search one and done. Welcome back to hardball. There has been more bad news about scott pruitt at the epa. Bloomberg reports white house officials are cautioning republican lawmakers and other conservative allies to temper this, catch this, defense of pruitt. According to two people familiar with the discussions in a sign the Administration Support<\/a> for the embattled epa chief may be waning. Early today Sarah Sanders<\/a> was asked about pruitt standing with the president. Here is what she said. Were reviewing some of those allegations. However, administrator pruitt has done a good job of implementing the president s policies, particularly on deregulation. The other things certainly are something that were monitoring and looking at, and ill keep you posted. Ill keep you posted. Were monitoring it. Thats always dangerous. More bad headlines over the weekend. The New York Times<\/a> looked at his political career in oklahoma before he came to washington and found that many of the pitfalls he has encountered in have echos in the past, namely unchecked spending and ethical lapses. Pruitt did in fact meet with a lobbyist whose wife rented him a room on capitol hill for 50 bucks a night. Thats cheap here, by the way. Over the past few months reporters revealed that pruitt requested 43,000 for a soundproof phone booth. I dont understand, increased his security detail to 3 million a year, regularly flew first class and signed off on pay raises for two of his closest aides. Raised their salary up to almost 200,000 a year for civil ploy employs. The Washington Post<\/a> reported President Trump<\/a> told him earlier this month to cool it. I can hear that. For more im joined by a staff writer for atlantic, sand she has been covering pruitt. Is this one of the leave them twisting slowly in the wind things where the white house is saying were reviewing his conduct. Well let you know. It doesnt look like theyre standing behind him. I want to be careful to delineate between the white house and donald trump. What im told by sources in the epa, at this point its everyone but trump now who wants scott pruitt gone. Ive also been told right now donald trump is consumed by Michael Cohen<\/a>. The news of the raid, whether he might flip. That just just consumes his ev waking moment and he doesnt have the head space right now to even think about scott pruitt. What about his behavior . Ask k you objectively say he has been out of line in the way he spent federal money on perks . Of course. Soundproof booth. I dont know why you would have a soundproof room at the epa. Its essential to his personality. And thats all it is. And thats what makes reporting on him somewhat difficult. He has his own office. Yes. Who is in the room listening to him . Nobody. Why does he need a soundproof contain container . Even his top aides dont understand what it is he is discussing that he needs that kind of secrecy. Its just a fixture of his personality. I think he has 20 security people, i think more than that actually. From the moment he got to washington. So its not as though threats were escalating, needed to bring in more. These are people he took from the epa field staff to come and guard him 24 7. Tell me how about he came here . People tend to have antecedents in their behavior. If you dont come here with values, youre not going to learn them here. You better bring them. You better be a good person before you get here, because youre not going to learn anything good here. Youre going to learn tricks. We learned that in oklahoma when he was ag and state senator before that he was pretty adept at communicating with lobbyists and organizing. He wasnt really a regulator. In other words . , no i wouldnt say so. Elena platt, thank you. Republicans are not only embracing President Trump<\/a>, theyre even starting to talk like him. This is in the primary system. During the primaries when only republicans are voting and trumps got about 80 support, four out of five among republican voters, they all want to be trumps, catchphrases. They want to talk like him. Talk. Watching hardball. Intelligence, covering virtually every part of your retail business. So that if your customer needs shoes, hes got wide feet. With edgetoedge intelligence youve got near real time inventory updates. Hell find the same shoes in your store that he found online hell be one happy, very forgetful wide footed customer. At t provides edge to edge intelligence. It can do so much for your business, the list goes on and on. Thats the power of. If your customer also forgets socks you could send him a coupon for that item. Looking for a hotel that fits. Whoooo. Your budget . Tripadvisor now searches over. 200 sites to find you the. Hotel you want at the lowest price. Grazi, gino find a price that fits. Tripadvisor. Hello. Lets go for a ride on a peloton. 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As mayor of la, he brought police and residents together to get illegal guns off the streets and keep kids out of gangs, and on the right path. Thats Antonio Villaraigosa<\/a>. A governor for all of california. Welcome back to hardball. The 2018 midterms are in full swing right now, and Many Republican<\/a> candidates are trying to outtrump trump. Many candidates are parroting the president as they try to prove voters they are cut from the same cloth. They recite the trump lexicon, spouting his trademark phrases and slurs even. Lets watch them in action. Im todd rokita. Ill proudly stand with our president and Vice President<\/a> pence to drain the swamp. I stand when the president walks in the room, and yes, i stand when i hear the star spangled banner. My friend martha mcsally. She is the real deal. She is tough. Like our president , i am tired of pc politicians and their bs excuses. After taking on terrorists in combat, the liberals in the senate wont scare me one bit. We dont need to investigate our president. We need to arrest hillary. Republican Don Blankenship<\/a> stands with President Trump<\/a>. What a sweetheart he is. Even republicans like ted cruz who are vehemently antitrump during the 2016 campaign are now singing his praises. Thats coming up next with the hardball round table. You might take something for your heart. Or joints. But do you take something for your brain. With an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brainhealth supplement in drug stores nationwide. Prevagen. The name to remember. I needthats whenvice foi remembered that my exex exboyfriend actually went to law school, so i called him. He didnt call me back if your exex exboyfriend isnt a lawyer, call legalzoom and well connect you with an attorney. Legalzoom. Where life meets legal. Welcome back to hardball. There was no love lost between donald trump and ted cruz during the 2016 campaign. His father was with Lee Harvey Oswald<\/a> prior to oswalds being, you know, shot. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. This man is a pathological liar. He doesnt know the difference between truth and lies. He lies practically every word that comes out of his mouth. How about cruz . Is it lying ted . He is a liar. I think most people know exactly what new york values are. He is a nasty guy. Nobody likes him. Nobody in congress likes him. Nobody likes him anywhere once they get to know him. The math man is utterly amoral. Morality does not exist for him. Ted cruz comes in bible high, bible high, puts the bible down, and then lies to you. He told you i mean, its unbelievable. Were liable to wake up one morning, and donald, if he were president would have nuked denmark. And i watched ted cruz this morning. Oh, i can cant listen. So dramatic. Cant watch. Donald, youre a sniveling coward. And leave heidi the hell alone. God forbid me, but i love it. Anyway, things unfortunately have changed between them. Cruz just wrote a glowing tribute for trump to times 100 most influential people list. President trump is a flashbang grenade thrown into washington by the forgotten men and women of america. The fact that this first year the commander in chief disoriented and dismayed members of the establishment is not a bug. We cant beat this. Tonights hard table round table, kim adkins for the Boston Herald<\/a>. Karine jeanpierre at moveon. Org and noel nickport. Ive got to go to you, noel. Im sure you do. Yes, yes, yes. Because i like authenticity. They hated each other. Thats real. This love affair, this bromance thats going on now is so embarrassing. They dont like each other. What you saw, that was authentic that was sincere. These two guys did not like each other. I dont think that ted cruz has had some sort of come to jesus moment. I think he is doing this because razz he is running, youve got to look at is the voters. And if you want to keep them, its a close race. But people have been known to forgot. When you accuse the other guys father of being an assassin. I just dont understand it. I think to me its like the Republican Party<\/a> has been totally taken over by trump. Republicans were able to survive tea party surge, but got swamped by trump. Is that because ratings are 80 for trump in the Republican Party<\/a> . Here is the thing. Going to texas for a second, trump is actually underwater according to a q poll that came out last week. So he is not actually helping ted cruz at all. Ted cruz is in an impossible position, right . What does he do . Stay silent or real against donald trump and face the same fate that we have seen republicans who do so leaving washington. Its also about money. Or does he stand up and say okay, i support the president. Now either way it makes him look so inauthentic. If he ever looked it before. Where you sit is where you stand. And where has it landed him . In Single Digits<\/a> in polling. With statistical dead heat with the democrat. A democrat in texas. Youre prodeem. Do you think we have a shot in texas . Absolutely. We had a shot in alabama, turned that blue after 25 years . We have a shot in texas. Alabama was a bizarro deal. Alabama roy moore. Rourke. He made a song the primary. This Claire Mccaskill<\/a> thing in missouri. Lucky duck. Lucky. She is luck . Barbara boxer always had an opponent with some gaping wound in his face. And in this case, its either the rape candidate aikin. Remember, that saying legitimate rape . Now another shot. Nude photo. I want to give her due respect. I dont always agree with Claire Mccaskill<\/a>. But missouri is a red state. Hold on a second. She is a very shrewd, smart politician. She is won statewide a couple times. Look, i said i respect her, and i think we should give her more respect than saying she is just lucky. And the difference between her you are so passionate. Im not. Lucky is good. But its not not. Why would they they would never say that about a man. They would never say that about a man. They wouldnt. Well, you wouldnt say what you said about her about ted cruz because she doesnt flip. [ overlapping dialog ] generals. Thats the kind of generals i want. I think the guy was lucky in alabama. A red state that benefitted that pistol flowing horse riding roy moore. Another alabama and missouri are things you can make broader national. Pennsylvania is really something to look at. Because that guy, connor lamb, he ran like a republican. He put up his hand where nancy pelosi. That was smart running. He also had some progressive issues that he was for. He was for protecting Social Security<\/a> and medicare and medicaid which is really important. Came out and said the democrats dont like jesus. For gods sake. What about West Virginia<\/a> . West virginia is a fascinating case. Manchin is voting for the no, maam make of pompeo. Why do you think . Because he lives in a trump state. And i think he actually probably likes pompeo. I think hell make a good secretary of state. But these are all people facing reelection in red states, knowing that they dont want that, if thats going to be the thing that knocks them out that. Dont want that to be it. Its better to take that than not in most cases. To make another point. Whats that . She may be running. She is looking at 2020. The round table is sticking with us. Everybody is playing politics, in love matters by the way. Up next, these three will tell me something i dont know. Maybe it will be lucky, karine. Oh. Whether its a big thing, small thing, or something unexpected, pnc will be right there when you need us. Because when it comes to your finances, if you focus on today, tomorrow has a way of working itself out. If you focus on today, with expedia you could book a flight, hotel, car and activity all in one place. Were back with the round table. Kimberly, tell me something i dont know. So remember when donald trump was pushing those cheap Health Care Plans<\/a> that didnt cover as much . Well, those may become reality very soon because today the Comment Period<\/a> the change those rules ended. And so that opens the door for this and probably other regulations to slowly chip away at obamacare. These plans dont have to adhere to the same rules. Who is pushing that . The Trump Administration<\/a> that will come straight out of hhs. And that means according to opponents of this, that the premiums are likely going to go up, especially middle class people, business owners, people who are selfemployed. How is that going to work in blue collar rust belt states like pennsylvania, wisconsin and ohio . Karine was talking about. That i do doh depend on those social programs. Culturally conservative voter. I think youre right. I think the antiobamacare mantra is over. Thank you, kimberly. A couple of weeks ago i was on the show and talked about how wells fargo was investing and profiting from the gun industry and how they were going to have their Shareholders Meeting<\/a> coming up shortly. Well, its happening tomorrow there is going to be demonstrators inside of the meeting and outside of the meeting asking them to basically fire all of the Board Members<\/a> and to just divest from profiting and investing into nra. So you were right . Yeah, i was right. Thank you, karine. I have a prediction. In the new york governors primary. Oh my god, here it comes. Look for cynthia nixon. I really do. Thats the governor . I look for her to do it. She has such a groundswell. And she can also raise money with her celebrity status. She can raise money nationally. And she actually has a message. She is authentic. She is sincere about wanting to run. And i think that the same old same old guard with cuomo, i think he takes a real hit. You could be stirring in troubled waters here. Not trying to cause trouble to the democratic side, are you . Sorry. I think we might be able to arrange a bet for that. Ive been very lucky in Atlantic City<\/a> lately. I with talk you up to that. I think its 21 against her. But it will be interesting. Kimberly atkins, thank you, from the Boston Herald<\/a> Karine Jeanpierre<\/a> and noelle nikpour. Not sure where youre from when we return, let me finish with trump watch. Youre watching hardball. Finally. Hey ron theyre finally taking down that schwab billboard. Oh, not so fast, carl. Oh no. Schwab, again . Index investing for that low . Thats three times less than fidelity. And four times less than vanguard. Whats next, no minimums . No minimums. Schwab has lowered the cost of investing again. Introducing the lowest cost index funds in the industry with no minimums. I bet theyre calling about the schwab news. Schwab. A modern approach to wealth management. Your digestive system has billions of bacteria, but life can throw them off balance. Try align, the 1 doctor recommended probiotic. With a unique strain that realigns your system. Realign yourself, with align. When this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night, so he got home safe. Yeah, my dad says our insurance doesnt have that. What . you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you\u2122. Liberty mutual insurance. Trump watch, monday, april 23rd, 2018. Donald trump shoots the moon. Other players of the political game, and it is a game of enormous stakes, play it safe, going with the safe recommended route. Trump goes in the opposite direction. If politics were a game of heart, donald trump would be the player who hand after hand shoots the moon. The other players try to discard the queen of hearts and get spades. It works for him. Here he is some sort of billionaire. And please Pay Attention<\/a> to the news, president of the united states. So now he is trying to shoot the moon on north korea. He is trying to turn what has been for every president since harry truman a bad hand into a wing hand. Turn onethird of what the neo cons coined the axis of evil into something good. Well, the question is can he do what no other president before him was able to . Can he get this generations dear leader to turn back on aggression . Can he find this kims price . I hope he can. Knowing the odds, i hope he can. Why . Because i remember another outsider president , my old boss jimmy carter do what other president s dared not to, bring peace between israel and egypt, the country that was then their chief military threat. He was fwarnd experts then not to try it, but he did try and succeeded. So im rooting for the north korean deal for another reason, the 30,000 americans who died when president truman got it wrong back in 1950 about kims grandfather. Well dont want a war, possibly even more terrible and nuclear his grandson. Who doesnt want to avert that from happening . On that basis, who wouldnt want this hand of trumps shoot the moon to win . And thats hardball for now. Thanks for being with us. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in what is he worried Michael Cohen<\/a> can flip over . As the president fixates on Michael Cohen<\/a>, the white house insists trump is not worried. The total witchhunt. Tonight congresswoman Maxine Waters<\/a> joins me to discuss pardons, witness flipping, and the bipartisan push to protect mueller. Then another day, another scott pruitt scandal. I think scott pruitt is doing a great job. New signs tonight that pruitts job could actually be in jeopardy. And after year of President Trump<\/a>, guess what republican candidates are campaigning on . 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