Democrats that are from states that are strong for him and force them to choose between the Democratic Party in washington or representing their voters back home, voting the way new Yorks Chuck Schumer wants him or her to vote or the way most voting adults in, say, north dakota or indiana or West Virginia want them to vote. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in the nations capital. Where President Trump is just two hours away from announcing his Supreme Court pick. Its a choice that will almost certainly shift the balance of the court rightward and could have a wideranging impact on issues like abortion rights and gay rights. Justice Anthony Kennedy was often the decisive vote on the most contentious constitutional issues the court faced. Now President Trump seeks to fill his vacancy with a strong conservative who can serve 40 to 45 years as trump suggested. The former apprentice host has spent the last week building the drama with all the flash of a primetime reality tv reveal. He wrote on twitter this morning, i have long heard that the most important decision a u. S. President can make is the selection of the Supreme Court justice. Will be announced tonight at 9 00 p. M. On sunday he teased his choice saying hed have a final decision by noon today. I believe this person will do a great job. But im very close to making a decision. Lets say its the four people. And theyre excellent. Every one. You cant go wrong. Those final four contenders are all conservative Appeals Court judges. But yesterday nbc reported that he narrowed his focus down to two, Thomas Hardiman and brett kavanaugh. Kavanaughs a former clerk to Justice Kennedy. Justice hardiman was runnerup to Justice Neil Gorsuch in filling the Previous High Court vacancy last year. Im joined by connecticut democratic senator chris murphy, robert costa, National Political reporter for the Washington Post and an msnbc political analyst. Michael steele, former rnc chair and msnbc political analyst. Ruth marcus, columnist for the Washington Post and an msnbc contributor. A great youre the final four for tonight for us. Oh, boy. Senator murphy, is there any way this isnt going to become an enormously political decision by your fellow members of the senate . Especially from the red states. He decided to make this a momentous political moment by outsourcing the decision to the Heritage Institute and to the Federalist Society the day that he basically put these rightwing political organizations in charge of selecting the next Supreme Court justice, who would basically telegraph that the only people on those lists are people who will not only overturn roe versus wade but possibly the right to privacy in grizzle v. Connecticut. That was the one about Birth Control pills way back then, right . Yeah. I just dont think you have to mistake what the agenda is here. The agenda is not just to get rid of roe. Its to go after griswold itself so you can go after contraception. The minute he outsourced the decision to those political groups he knew he was going to be in for the fight of his life and he knew it was going to be hard to keep all of the republicans, some of which have a big problem with a court thats going to overturn the right to full Reproductive Health care for women. Robert costa, i think that trump is playing this not just to rule the Supreme Court for the next 40 or 45 years as he puts it because he could well do that. If ginsburg retires next year or later he could still grab three seats altogether and make it 63 and overwhelmingly a rightwing court. My question is is he also using this as a Political Tool to destroy the political future of people like Heidi Heitkamp out in north dakota, of joe manchin in West Virginia, of joe donnalley in indiana and possibly end or shorten the career of doug jones down in alabama by saying vote your state or vote your party, you choose and ill kill you either way. Your thoughts. The poking and prodding of these red state democrats politically starts today. You saw it in the invitations, chris, from the white house that went out to those four red state democrats. They all declined to go. So did moderate republican Susan Collins of maine. And the minute this persons announced tonight youll see the Judicial Crisis Network and other conservative groups put millions of dollars on the airwaves to try to pressure these red state democrats running in states won by trump to back the nominee. Michael, this is a political test, and im going to say at the end of the show, i can say it right now, i think its going to be brutal for people like those senators i just mentioned. Trump is connivingly brilliant at this. He says are you going to vote the way you people at home would vote on the nomination or your partys going to vote . Hes going noild them, force them to choose between their party and their state. Theyve already made their choice. Theyre going to vote the way the people at home want them to vote. Then this nominations dead i mean its in for sure. Its for sure. Whether its one of the two gentlemen you showed at the beginning of the program or even someone else weve not talked about on this list, theyre going to be cut very close out of that cloth of gorsuch. Theyre going to be that type of nominee. Theyre not going to be someone that is going to swing so far in the debate that it makes it hard for those votes to congeal, if you will, around this nominee. And no borks in there. Exactly. Theres not that play. So i think the president has listened to a lot of smart people about this. This is the one time where the president sort of gives himself over to others in that regard. Yes, he does the showman bit out front but behind the scenes hes listening and following directio directions on this and i think this nominee is not going to be the kind of political play people anticipate it will. The values question, what kind of country do you want to live in, what rights should women and other peoplev gay have, respect and dignity. All those values questions. Against the politics of the game hes playing. It is a game hes setting up by doing this. So the politics are really clear. You have to be able to get to a majority of votes against the nominee. And the only way youre going to get to that 51. If you peel off the republican senators who declined wisely i think the white houses nomination tonight. I will be stunned if its one of the two folks, kavanaugh or hardiman, if they end up voting against them. If that is true, why would democrats in those red states sort of go on the suicide, political Suicide Mission . Why would Chuck Schumer the leader want them to go on the Suicide Mission, Pay Attention ill give you a reason. To your prospects. Ocasio cortez. Because the leadership is going to be trashed if they let this go by them. They can trash it but they need to worry about trying to claw back as close to a majority as possible. On the substance so you argue the best side of discretions the best form of valor, in other words, decide now youre not going to win this fight, so just start do the math. Justice brennan youre a voter. I think this notion its a Suicide Mission for democrats in trumpleaning states to vote against a procorporate, antichoice, anticollective bargaining nominee is ridiculous. The fact is north dakota . West virginia. In many states you may have public who likes trump but the polling also tells you that they dont mind a senator who is going to be a check on the would you tell Heidi Heitkamp of north dakota way small population, dont run on local issued, vote with your party on this and see how it goes . I wouldnt tell heidi or joe or any of them to do anything. Theyre going to have to make their own decision. But if you run a nationwide Campaign Making clear who this nominee is going to be, voters all across the country are going to have problems with the kind of decisions he or she robert, lets go back to kintly theres going to be hearings, theyre going to be all over television for months. The hearings are going to be dynamite. There are people there who really know how to do the hearings. Questions of religion perhaps are going to come up. They can go both ways. But my question is wont the democrats and the leadership especially, go into those private rooms at the capitol, schumers room, they sit in there and go you sit there schumer talking to Heidi Heitkamp, you say you know what i think were not going to get murkowski or collins sourks know what . Youre free. I can hear that conversation. Because why commit suicide . Its going to all depend on the hearings. They dont have that conversation until they see how these hearings go. And these hearings as you say could be explosive. If its judge kavanaugh, theyre going to go over his time with the special counsel in the 1990s investigating vince foster and president clinton and theyll go over his work in george w. Bushs white house. If its judge hardiman, theyre going to look at all these rulings hes done on gun rights that are very conservative. So if youre Heidi Heitkamp of the world, its tbd. It all zepds on how these hearings play, how the country sees the nominee. Can you find do you think let me go back to the senator. Do you think a senator from these red states would find something Strong Enough to use back home against the nominee that they could justify it . Absolutely. And i think its right. This is all going to play out as the country learns who these nominees are. I think a lot of trumps base, right . Not that he was going to take on corporate america, he was going to return power to the people. What theyre going to find is all of these judges were handselected by the Federalist Society because they are going to take power away from regular people and hand them to big corporations. I think if we make that case effectively, if we tell people that these are the judges who are going to take away federal protections for you, if you have a preexisting condition, theyre going to overturn the Affordable Care act, all of a sudden this looks like a very different vote in those places than it may be if all that matters is that the judge was picked by donald trump. These judges are going to have a record, and were going to make that very clear to the American People by the time i notice i get bob caseys information, someone put him on my list, his fundraising list. I dont know how i got on there. Hes really pushing this corporate thing like you are. In other words, its not all about roe or lgbt rights, its also about what side are you on in terms of the economy. Are you with the rich people and the capitol people or are you with the working people . Number one issue in america right now is health care, and this is a court thats going to decide whether or not the congress can under the constitution protect people from how do they do it, by the way . Now theyve lost the individual mandate. Once youve lost the individual mandate its not perceived as a tax bill, which is the way roberts voted for it. But the answer is once its not perceived as a tax bill because theres no individual mandate, theres no unconstitutional compulsion. No arguably unconstitutional compulsion. Look, i would have lofved to se Justice Merrick garland. Would have loved to see him confirmed. I understand the anger and frustration among senate democrats. I have to say looking at a judge hardiman or judge kavanaugh i do not see this nominee as significantly different than what a person jeb bush or a president mitt romney would have picked. Youre very benign tonight. Anyway, on meet the press Missouri Republican roy blount, the senator from missouri, said, of all four finalists, he said, all the four were hearing about, theyre all going through with 50 votes plus the vice president. Lets hear. I think theyll all be theyre good judges. I think theyd be fine justices of the Supreme Court. I do think the president has to think about who is the easiest to get confirmed here. And i expect well do that on sort of a normal timetable of a couple of months. Thats what were hearing from michael here, theyre going to go for the one that can slip through easily. The Washington Post reports that President Trump spoke with senate mangt leader Mitch Mcconnell on friday. Mcconnell did not push any choice on the president. But the report goes on to add that mcconnell did note that slard hardiman and kethledge could fare well because they were not as charged as the president ss short list of others. Senator, i love to have you here. I love to have a senator here. You know the feeling whenever he talks to each other. Would we be better off with the old 60vote requirement where you have to have some kind of bipartisan consensus to get anybody through . Wasnt that a better system . Ive been a critic of the filibuster, but i always thought that it made sense for the Supreme Court. I didnt mind getting rid of it for the lower courts for president ial appointees. And i also frankly dont mind a conversation about reforming it for legislation. But when it comes to the Supreme Court, a lifetime appointment, especially now that president s are picking people in their 40s and 50s forever. Yeah. It certainly seems do you agree with that, as the philosopher and the column writer . Yeah, actually, i share the senators view. Dont like the filibuster for executive branch nominees. Do like it for judicial nominees. I think once you made the decision to get rid of decisions for lower Court Nominees i like the dpil buffefilibuse i like the drama. Let me go back to robert. You know trump pretty well. I wonder whether he knows for history, and he is going for history now. Whatever the progressives think, i think hes thinking history. Maybe hes not Mount Rushmore but hell come out as a pretty good president he thinks. One way hell do that with the conservative side is i pick three Supreme Court justices. My hunch is hell keep amy barrett on the on deck sishlg, keep her back, maybe somebody else. But hes going for three, isnt he . Ginsburg is 85. Hes got to be going for three in this term, which would make him one of the most masterfully successful pickers of courts in history since washington. Go ahead. And hes got white House Counsel don mcgahn, Federalist Society in the president s ear saying this is for history, youre playing for your legacy here. Youve got to have someone who has an extensive judicial writing record. Look at the writing, theyre telling the president. Thats the only way to really prove someones conservatism. You dont want to be seen as someone who picked a judge who then sort of evolved in the Supreme Court over the years. Are they afraid of a judge suter or frankfurter, someone going left to right or in their case right to left. Thats why it was start from the beginning by mcgahn and leonard leo. So the senator was right, this was all approved by the higher authorities. Yeah. I think this was a reaction to roberts and to suter. They dont want any wild cards. Meaning moderates. Yeah. They dont want anybody whos going to surprise them. So they just outsourced the selection to a bunch of political operatives who can make sure that anybody he picks is going to go down the line and be essentially in the same place that Clarence Thomas and alito i guess. But lets also not rewrite kennedys history here. He is certainly the swing vote on a handful of very important issues. But what would matter much more is if trump gets to select a replacement for ginsburg or for breyer. Thats the fight. Yeah. Thats where hes going. How are the democrats going to do any better when they have the same numbers unless youre right, ruth says go for more numbers. Democrats are banking on a 2020 takeover. But thats i think you make the point you made earlier, senator, which is sure people like me and ruth and others have rooted for Justice Kennedy on social issues, lgbt issues and abortion rights and things like that, even Capital Punishment for youth and things like, that not executing kids below 18. But when it comes to Economic Issues and partisan issues, he was in there. He was in there with citizens united, with gore v. Bush. And he was right in there with the republican partisanship. I think hes a real republican. Im sorry, a Northern California republican, nonetheless. Thank you senator chris murphy. Thank you from connecticut. Thank you for having him here. And thank you robert costa, ruth marcus, and michael steele. Well be covering this story throughout this hour of course because