Transcripts For MSNBCW Hardball With Chris Matthews 20190919

With a foreign leader. Their conversation included a promise that was regarded as so troubling that it prompted an official in the u. S. Intelligence community to file a formal whistleblower complaint with the Inspector General. And now the whistleblowers complaint is the subject of a bitter public dispute between the congress which is entitled by law to see it and it director of National Intelligence whos withholding it. And while the identity of the foreign leader is still unknown, nbc news today confirmed that the communication described in the complaint was a phone conversation. Nbc news is working a complete list of the president s phone calls and has so far confirmed that he spoke with at least nine different World Leaders during the relevant time period including a call with ukraines president on july 25th of this year and one with Vladimir Putin on the 31st. The whistleblower complaint was filed on august 12th. The Inspector General of the Intelligence Committee deemed the whistleblowers complaint credible and troubling enough to be considered a matter of urgent concern. Urgent concern is the phrase. A legal threshold that requires notification of oversight committees on capitol hill. However, acting director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire has refused to turn over the complaint to the hearings. He told congress the complaint contains confidential and potentially privileged information. Adam schiff who issued a subpoena for the complaint on friday is crying foul. I believe that there is an effort to prevent this information getting to congress, and if the assertion is accurate and the department of justice has made and the dni has affirmed this involves a potentially privileged communication that at one level or another it likely involves either the president or the people around him. Well, schiffs committee met today with inspector atkinson. Hes bound by orders of his superior not to. Im joined by congressman danny heck of washington state, and contributor mulligan has held senior positions in the doj, and the office of director of National Intelligence itself. Let me start with ken our guy. This had to have reached a threshold, urgent concern. What would that embody that would cause the Inspector Generals office to get ahold of a complaint that reaches to the level of urgency and should be law be told to congress immediately. Theres actually a legal definition. Its supposed to involve intelligence activities and its extremely rare because theres a lot of complaints that go into that office. Very few of them are deemed urgent concerns. And when he made that determination to the Inspector General that should have triggered, and he was saying i wanted to turn this over and i was blocked by doing so by acting maquire. It was a doj ruling that said theres some Privileged Communications here. Since its about the president thats understandable. The president s conversations with foreign leaders are not the business of congress and particularly not the congressional Intelligence Committees, and adam schiff is saying how can that be the case if we have a whistleblower who is an Intelligence Officer whos saying i saw something really inappropriate here. Weve got to know about it. And no one ive talked to have ever heard of this happening in the history of our country. Your reaction to this story because youre being denied the actual fact of the complaint because we know its in the hands of obviously the whistleblower himself or herself, in the hands of the Inspector General and the folks over at doj, william barr, dont want this out. So kims right, no one has ever heard of this happening before because the simple truth of the matter, chris, is it hasnt happened before. Listen, we should remember the Intelligence Community whistleblower protection act is designed to keep america safer. And if president is allowed to stand then we will all be less safe. Its designed to ensure that a whistleblower can come forward and may discover credible evidence of a abuse, a serious or flagrant violation of the law with respect to intelligence activities and that they will not be retaliated against. Now, of course, if the subject of this complaint is allowed to quash it, that person is no longer incentivized to come forward with the truth. And more over, frankly, it creates a perverse incentive perhaps for somebody, ala Edward Snowden to bring forth through public channels inappropriately information that may compromise methods and procedures. America is less safer tonight if this pres dependent is allowed to stand, pure and simple. Theres talk of according to our logs the information weve been able to get that he talked to putin, talked to the president of ukraine. Do we know whether this pardon involves partisan behavior by the president or what sort of intrigue is at work here . I think its important to remember theres still a lot we dont know. We know theres a promise involved here. We know theres a promise involved but theres a lot of information we dont have and we should be cautious. There are serious allegations here and they should be treated very seriously. But there are a couple of things we know are not the case. We know this isnt purely a difference of opinion pertaining to Public Policy because pursuant to the definition in the statute, thats expressly excluded from being defined as an urgent concern. So we know as some have speculated that the president has all the freedom in the world to make Public Policy, that cannot be whats essentially at issue here. Well, the president today had an odd sort of would have, could have attitude. Its a strange kind of denial. Trump today he dismissed the whistleblowers complaint saying its unthinkable he would have been caught doing what the complaint describes. Quote, first of all any time i speak on the phone with a foreign leader i understand there may be many people listening from various agencies not to mention those from the other country itself. Knowing all this is anybody dumb enough to believe i would Say Something inappropriate with a foreign leader while in such a potentially heavy populated call. I would only do what is right anyway. Thats a weird kind of denial. By the way, why if its not really dangerous why is william barr, why would he want to keep it secret . Why does this president want to keep it secret . Because a two second call and william barr it would be behind him. We know donald trump doesnt necessarily know when hes doing something inappropriate. He gave away classified code word information to the Russian Ambassador then oval office that his aides had to cleanup. Hes been cavalier with intelligence right along. So its completely credible he would Say Something he didnt realize was improper and a career official flagged. Its not a disagreement or something the official thought was stupid. Its something that compromise the National Security of the United States. The fact the whistleblower believed this was a matter of urgent concern, and number two the attorney general of the United States who serves this president rather well i must say in a negative way, he looks out for him and doesnt want us to know about it. Thats two levels of urgent concern as far as im concerned. Well, in addition to that, chris, he also said that there was credible evidence to establish this urge want concern. So on every level theres reason for concern, frankly. Well, in a letter chairman schiff on tuesday, Inspector General Michael Atkinson wrote i have now determined the director of National Intelligence and i are at an impass over this issue of releasing this complaint to congress. He emphasized the subject matter involved in the complaint relates to one of the most significant dnis responsible for the American People which of course would be National Security. Thats powerful language. This is the Inspector General appointed by trump, confirmed by the senate. Hes a career justice appointment lawyer. Hes totally neutral in this. Hes saying its central to the mission of the top intelligence agency, and the idea that congress cant have that information, a lot of people are going to have a problem with that. This story popped in the Washington Post this morning, katrina. And the very top of the newspaper today so a lot of editorial judgments in this, too, but the best newspaper which covers the federal government, which is the Washington Post, they think this is huge the fact the editors have decided to put it up there at the top. The fact the Inspector General thought it was big enough to go to congress and hes fighting his dni, the director of National Intelligence over this. The fact barr is hiding this thing, there are a lot of alarm bells going off here. I i think its important to emphasize the statute here doesnt authorize the dni or the acting dni in this case to overturn the judgment of the icig, and thats a serious concern. The other thing i think is worth emphasizing here is that there hasnt actually been a privilege claim asserted to my knowledge. Theres potential priv l claim, but until its asserted its not operative and i think arguably it puts the acting dni in a pretty tough spot. If im joan maguire tonight im wonder if i can find a way out of this before testifying in open hearing next week. Im thinking russia, im thinking putin because he andputep have a lot of history together, a lot of means and we all know a back and forth relationship and the fact it might involve a promise. Theres also the ukrainian president who might have information on who knows who, perhaps the biden. Theres lots of speculation about this all around town that this may be a partisan move by the president uncovered by a career bureaucrat who said president s shouldnt be using intelligence, communication with foreign leaders for partisan negative opo. Three quick things, chris. First of all who said what to whom matters and it is important. But im still going to maintain and assert it is secondary to the violation of the whistleblower protection act which keeps us all safe. And secondly, we should not assume because we really do not know what this is we do not know what this is, but we should not assume it was simply an act of the president sharing classified information with a foreign leader because he possesses the authority to declassify material. Therefore, if it was him and we dont know, its probably something else. And thirdly, of a serious nature, of a flagrant nature, thats the law. And thirdly, i think we just have to stop and pause here. What Inspector General Michael Atkinson did is frankly a mini act befitting of profiles in courage. It was hard for him to stand up, write that letter and seek to up hold the law in the cop text of the way this administration acts and it should be acknowledged as sup. What im worried about is that the character assassination is about to begin of this career public servant. Not going to start here i can tell you, congressman. A member of the Intelligence Committee of the house, ken dilanian as always we rely on you, sir. Coming up the bombshell whistleblower complaint is the latest and perhaps more serious potential example of trumps mishandling of Sensitive National information. So what can congress or anyone else do about this mishandling . Plus democrats are still waiting for republicans to agree on anything, anything on gun control. Despite the urgency of the situation the president says hes taking it slow until we forget about it, i guess. Congressman Hakem Jeffries is coming and joins us soon tonight. Weve got much more to get to. Stay with us. Ght. Weve got much more to get to. Stay with us lets be honest, insurance can feel a little outdated. The paperwork, the searching for id cards. Thats why esurance makes it simple with an app, so youre not stuck in the 90s. Wow, that tiny tv is the bomb. When insurance is simple, its surprisingly painless. The way you triumph over adversity. 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Know whos on your network and control who shouldnt be with xfinity xfi. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Welcome back to hardball. As the leader of the free world President Trump has access of course to the countrys deepest and most guarderd secrets and every morning hes handed intelligence updates in covert programs, surveillance, current Cyber Attacks and new foreign secrets. The president is supposed to be the guardian of all that stuff, all those top secrets. Traditionally unauthorized disclosure is seen as a serious breach of security causing exceptionally grave damage to our country. Its within that context according to the Washington Post that an individual once working in the staff of the National White house Security Council was so troubled by this president s behavior that he or she felt compelled to blow the whistle on the leader of it free world. President trump brushed off those reports today by tweeting is anybody dumb enough to believe i would say anything inappropriate with a foreign leader . I think a lot of people would. Trumps handling of classified information has been a source of ongoing concern. In april of 2017, for example, trump shared the location of two Nuclear Submarines to the president of the philippines, a secret so guarded its kept from navy command. In may of 2017 the Washington Post reported that the president actually discussed classified information provided by u. S. Ally i think it was israel with russian minister Sergei Lavrov and sergei kislyak. In july of 2017 the Washington Post reported during a private meeting with Vladimir Putin President Trump took the unusual step of confiscating and keeping his interpreters notes. In other words, they were keeping notes of what he said and putin said so he made sure to kill all that stuff. In july 2018, actually, june, President Trump publicly opposed the cia using informants against north korea. Just last month the president tweeted a reportedly classified image of recent damage to an iranian testing missile site. For more im joined by mieke eoyang, and Edward Mcmullen a cia operative. What do you make of this . Weve been talking about it but it seems to be a pattern. Not just sloppily but reckless with information, they could do damage to our forces overseas, all kinds of our international relations. He doesnt seem to care about being careful. Yes, not only does he not care, he doesnt care if the people around him arent careful. We went through this with the security clearances. A number of people in his white house, they were recommended to not be suitable for holding classified information. Like jared. Right. And they got clearances anyway. He just does not take the security of american information that is central in the way we expect president s will do based on the entire history. The word is out that our people know hes been manipulated. The former secretary of state wrote in this book this president has been played by played is the term by bibi. Whatever is happening here has got to be more than simply the president being a little loose with National Security intelligence secrets because thats been going on for some time. I think thats sort of priced into the experience with President Trump. Not only in the country broadly but also inside the Intelligence Community. Thats something they would try to manage internally. Why is he there with those goes . Theres nothing wrong with having fun but he seems closer to them than he does our Intelligence Community. The russians. There has to be some angle of personal interest this intelligence whistleblower i think had to see something in the president s engagement with the foreign