Alan dershowitz is a celebrity attorney who says hell make a institutional defense of the president and ken starr is the former independent counsel whos investigation of president clinton led to his impeachment. Dershowitz of course has a history of defending controversial figures including von buelo o, mike tiyson and Jeffrey Epstein. His most famous clan of course was o. J. Simpson whom he helped to beat a double murder charge in what was called the trial of the century. Dershowitz has argued for expansive powers of trumps executive presidency. He said in november that under the constitution, the president has more power than a king. The president s far more powerful than the king. The president has the power that kings have never had. Hes very, very powerful office and the framers wanted it that way. Never mind what you were taught in civics or history classes. For ken starr, the shoe is now on the other foot after prosecute iing the case againste president , hes now defending another. As trumps lawyer, hes likely to oppose witness testimony even though he knows its value. As he said in 1998, theres no substitute for looking a witness in the eye, asking detailed questions, matching the answers against verifiable facts. The record also shows that donald trump did not hold starr in high esteem. I think ken starr is a lunatic. I really think that ken starr is a disaster. A long and terrible process. I really think that ken starr was terrible. Likewise, starr has recently criticized trump saying his tweet against ambassador yovanovitch was unimportant and that sunday lands case the president was not advised by counsel in deciding to do this tweet. Extraordinarily poor judgment. The president frequently says i follow my instincts. Sometimes, we have to control them. We have sondlands understanding, it doesnt look good for the president substantively. This has been one of those bombshell days. According to nbc news, trumps Legal Defense team will spend the weekend preparing their case before they square off against the seven managers named by Speaker Pelosi this week. Rudy giuliani wont be joining trumps legal team, but tells nbc hell still advise the president in an unofficial capacity. Im joined by mika, george, paul, former federal prosecutor. You know dershowitz. Hes somewhat argue mentive. I think he takes cases just to points of view just to be that. What do you think hes up to here with this expansive notice of what a president can do . I watched him on aris program. He basically sayses a president can really put himself in trouble by abusing power because all president s abuse u power. That was his argument. Thats wrong as a matter of the constitution, but i think theres two objectives to this. The first is about not calling witnesses. He wants to make the case that even if everything that the articles suggest trump did are true, the facts dont matter. Under the constitution, his argument is that it doesnt rise to the kind of high crime or misdemeanor necessary for removal from office. Again, if you look at the history, thats just flat out wrong. What trump is accused of doing fall into categories like mall administration, abuse of office. What Alexander Hamilton and the other framers had in mind. The concern that someone like trump would reach office and the second thing really quickly is to give republican senators some cover for not voting to remove trump. They can say its not just trumps own white House Counsel and his own poererson lawyers, these two respected legal scholars also believe that the president shouldnt be removed from office. Lets take a look at what dershowitz said moments ago on this network. Abuse of power, even if pr e proved is not an impeachable offense. The framers didnt want to give conditions the authority to remove the president because he abuse d his powe. They have to prove treason, bribery, b but other crimes. Youre making news here b about what youll argue on the president s behalf. The news youre making as i understand it is that quote abuse of power in your argument, does not constitute as a high crime under the constitution . If you wanted to charge him with a crime, thats what they did in the clinton impeachment. They charged him with specific crimes. What they did with nixon. But they didnt, here, they havent charged him with specific crimes as part of the articles of impeachment. This is an argument that back i think, i dont know why dershowitz is arguing this because ive never heard anybody else arguing this. Its meant to be a political act. Abuse of power. Taking the presidency and using it in a way it should not be used under the constitution. Yeah and weve had a number of people not necessarily the president but other lower level officials impeach and removed from office on things that are similar about misusing their power. We have the governor of illinois go to jail for a similar thing. Of trying to withhold a a thing of value and trying to get something for it. Whether a political favor or money, i think its something we have an entire public corruption section at the department of justice to go after Public Officials who abuse their power this way. I think its very clear that what the president s done here. In using, in withholding aid to try and force another country to force his political rival is really the kind of abuse of power the framers were warning against. George, you wrote really well recently about the bu abuse of power. What dershowitz is saying is that the president can take us to war against switzerland because theres in crime against it. Well, we did go to war against libya. Seven months, probably the longest assassination attempt in world history. And republicans said at the time, dick lugar and others who are hardly fanatical, the danger was the abuse of power standard for peemd that when ever you have the presidency and one congress in another, you could have, come up with a standard and the president is abused power because in some sense, its in the eye of the beholderer and the beholders will always find an abuse of power. Back to paul. What about the thee at ricks here. You studied under him, b i believe. He also outside of the world of law is the world of theatre. And he shares that with trump. Theres a reason why hes always on television, dershowitz. He takes these cases like onl where he really made his name. How is he going to change the theatre here . I get the feeling how they just on the ari show, hes going to be all over the place outside that Senate Chamber makinging the case. Hes an intellectual heavyweight and is an emeritus professor at harvard. But dont get it twisted. Hes a street fighter. A zealous advocate for his clients. Hell be willing to not just make the case of senate, but to get down and dirty on fox and msnbc. So to make the political case as well as the legal case. Again, hes long on the merits on the legal case, but it will be interesting to see how he goes over politically. I just dont know how theyre going to have a case or a trial where they prevent the inflow, the avalanche of evidence that just keeps coming in. Any way, the house of representatives has just released more material from lev parnas including new Text Messages that show extensive contact between parnas and a staffer to nunes. I want to bring in nbc News National reporter with the news. Josh. Chris, i want to say from the get go that we are just going through these documents. A whole trench that is just come out and is a lot in there. But theres new information in there about this story line weve been following over the last couple of days about robert high, this republican congressional candidate who told lev parnas that he had some type of a surveillance operation on ambassador yovanovitch. Earlier today, robert had pointed the finger on twitter at someone else, another trump supporter that he identify anthony decaloway and he copied and pasted it to lev parnas. We spent part of the day trying to figure out if that was accurate or not and now in these new documents that come out from the house, we can see that theyre essentially what happened was somebody using a belgian phone number and a photograph that matches anthony had sent this information about the where abouts of ambassador yovanovitch to robert then he had forwarded screen shots of those messages to lev parnas. So what he was saying earlier today about getting this information second hand from what we can tell from these new documents, appears to be corroborated. Theres also a voice mail. Basically a whats app audio message that is included from what was turned over by parnas where you hear an accented voice, its confirmed, shes in ukraine. We cant tell at this moment whos the voice in that, but its further evidence that there were a lot of back and forth messages about ambassador yovanovitchs where abouts. Whether those details were connect or this was just making stuff up, we have yet to be able to tell that, but as you know, the state department and ukraines interior minister are now investigating this. Thank you for that latest r report. This thing keeps going. Somebody once said about watergate, i read it on the door in greenwich village, its india. This just getting more entangled. Even to the point were now the Ukrainian Government is investigating the use cerve lance over there. And look, ukraine is place where theres a tremendous amount of surveillance so the idea that there are Security Services for hire out there is entirely possible and clearly, the state department was concerned for her safety and rushed her out of the country, but this is something we really need to get to the bottom of. Its one of these things we hope that the government takes seriously. Threats against United States ambassador are threats to the United States. These are people who serve as the representatives of our entire nation abroad. This is a strange case because its like the beginning of watergate rather than the end. Youve got all this stuff were learn iing now, this character robert heidi heidi who was a bar fly at the trump hotel. He apparently went to the expensive bar there. Made friends with people. Got to know parnas. Got to know rudy and theyre all working somehow in the interest of pruch. These drifters make burglars look carter paige. Exactly. The problem is what were talking about tonight is another boulder in the revelation, but none of it matters because republicans are willing as the lawyers say to stipulate that everything said about trump is true. Its irrelevant because of the reason that mr. Dershowitz said. Its irrelevant because unless you can point to a clear federal crime, it does not matter. Tha of course paul butler, we have the fact he broke the law with regard to a pounding funds approved by korncongress that doesnt carry a criminal sanction. Not a crime, just against the law. It does not refer to specific stat choir crimes. Those kind of crimes didnt even exist at the time the constitution was written. Its a term of olive the founders to mean corruption. Mall administration. Someone attaining the high power of being a president of the United States and using that extraordinary power for their own personal ends. So why is dershowitz your former mentor to some extent, why is he out there basically showing off . To be blunt about it, and saying that the constitution doesnt allow for the prosecution of a president , impeachment of a president , unless you have some criminal code he violate d . Why is he saying that. He was a great law professor. One of the reasons i wanted to be a criminal lawyer. Hes a much better criminal lawyer than a constitutional lawyer. Hes wrong on the constitution here and again, i think hes using his status in a way thats not appropriate. Thats not becoming. Hes amer tuss professor, its dangerous for the nation that he might be effect with republicans. Again, hell use this status to give them cover. What about to the idea of limited government . Limited power in the hands of government officials including the president . Not including the president , especially the president because the growth of power throughout the 20th century is the biggest threat to institution that James Madison designed. Yes, im talking to you, msnbc listeners, the progressives in this country have given us the inflateded presidency and i wonder if theyre enjoying it. Well see. I think we enjoyed roosevelt r more. Thank you very much. Coming up, with opening arguments, the impeachment trial just days away now, coming tuesday, can we expect any Senate Defectors from the gop that has increasingly become the party of trump . Will senators like mitt romney who flirts with with greatness, Lisa Murkowskis got guts, tow the line or push for a fair trial . Plus, inside the tank with pruch. New excerpts from an upcoming book that tell a meeting at the pentagon with a commander in chief called a room of top military brass dopes and babies. 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As the Senate Impeachment trial begins all eyes on a hand full of republican senators who hold the cards to determine whether they hear from witnesses or not. Witnesses. The Washington Post writes the trial will effect the legacy of senators and their party. Being a republican during the Trump Presidency demands much. He is quick to anger at any republican who strays from absolute loyalty. A lot of attention has been paid to five republican senators seen as potential votes for witnesses in a trial in recent days. Including retiring senator Lamar Alexander of tennessee and Cory Gardener up for a tough reelection. The wall street journal reports that alexander expressed openness to hearing witnesses and is in political war against President Trump. His career is pretty much behind him. Senator gardener has dodged questions about where he stands. A local station couldnt get a straight answer when they dodged him. Are you open to new witnesses . We have trial. Thats where we are right now. You talk about impartiality, is it possible for any senator to be impartial in the trial . Thats their constitutional duty and the oath we took. I know you hosted a fundraiser for President Trump. Hes promised to campaign for you. How do you plan to maintain that impartially . There are people running against trump in the senate. We have a duty to be impartial. I charlie, i owe you an apology. I couldnt believe it. You were right. You said the speaker of the house was going to hold on to the articles of impeachment. You were right. You had every time. Ill let you start with tonight. What do you hear about the magic republicans that might break with the pack and give us a real trial . I think its possible. Look, i mean, im used to disappointment. Here it is lucy with the football, but this is a relatively easier vote than voting to convict. You need four republicans to say we need to hear from the witnesses and think about all the things we have learned since that house vote since nancy pelosi held the impeachment. The emails that weve received. Lev parnas coming out. John bolton saying hes willing to testify. The gao report. So i think the pressure on republicans is going to be very, very intense. Not to ignore this, plus think about the risk if they obstruct those witnesses and obstruct that evidence if more things come out then their votes become absolutely