He confirms ambassador bill taylor telling investigators that the ukrainians were told that military assistance, not just the white house meeting, was conditioned on a public announcement of political investigations that the president wanted. Now, that news breaking even as a saturday deposition was just wrapping up this afternoon. Office of management and budget official marc sandy defying white house orders to testify. Speaking with congressional investigators for roughly 5 1 2 hours. Now, the omb, its at the center of all of this because its the agency that actually hold held up the military aid to ukraine. Lets get right to Garrett Haake on capitol hill with the latest. And, garrett, lets start with the breaking news and the transcripts and what weve learned from it. What do you got . Well, richard, the transcripts are fascinating. They talk about two different people who were on that july 25th phone call who had two different reactions to it. Jennifer williams, who you mentioned, who was a Foreign Policy aide to Vice President mike pence. Thought the call sounded inappropriate. But tim morrison, the other official who listened to that call, a senior director the National Security council said he didnt think there was anything wrong with the phone call. They also disagree on whether the transcript or the memo put out by the white house purporting to be a transcript is indeed complete and accurate. Morrison says it is. Williams says it is not. So it will be very interesting to watch the two give their testimony side by side later in the week in public. Morrison also has a couple other interesting nuggets in his deposition. He talks about Gordon Sondland as a very problematic individual. This is the ambassador to the eu who was working in the ukraine portfolio and back channeling with President Trump. Morrison describes him as a free radical. Morrison also reveals i believe for the first time that his then boss john bolton had a oneonone meeting with President Trump sometime in late august we believe to about this Security Assistance and the hold placed on it. He was told afterwards morrison was by bolton only that president frutrump wasnt ready release that aid. Thats one more reason democrats are going to want to continue trying to pursue getting testimony from john bolton. That one on one meeting, very very Interesting Development for the investigators here. Garrett, also talk about mark sandy here is his Important Role potentially in the democrats argument about what may have happened. Yeah. Richard, its washington scandal 101 to try to follow the money. And sandy is the person who could conceivably make that possible for democrats. Hes a budget bureaucrat. This is not a sexy role to have but its where the rubber meets the road in terms of how money moves in washington. Particularly, in foreign aid. So sandy would be able to describe to investigators how money is supposed to move through his agency to a place like ukraine. And how, in this case, it didnt. We know his name had come up in testimony of other witnesses. They believed he was someone who had signed some of the documents about how this money was moving or not moving. Had several members in both parties describe his testimony today as fairly technical but important to understand how the political machinations here worked within the actual federal bureaucracy here. How things actually get done in washington. Well learn more when his full transcript is released. Unlike so many of these other witnesses, he did not release any kind of Opening Statement. Were told he essentially sat down and told members of congress, how can i help . All right. Msnbcs Garrett Haake on capitol hill for us with the wreakibrea news today. Garrett, thank you so much for that. Lets go to our panel now. Andrew, political congressional report. David jolly, former republican congressman from florida. Chris alllou, former assistant president obama. Andrew, you were in many of those pieces of video. We saw you in the background there in the hearing room. Being able to listen to what was said. Before we get to that and what has happened, lets start with the transcripts. And what were learning and garrett did a great job of sort of laying out, you know, two different characters and a narrative that the democrats will try to bring forward on tuesday. And what they may bring up. Lets start with morrison. Again, both of these two individuals on the call. So theyre very important. What do you expect from morrison here based on the way that garrett had laid it out for us . I think the top takeaway from Tim Morrisons deposition is that he gave democrats another data point to connect this to the president. He said that Gordon Sondland, the u. S. Ambassador to the European Union told him that he was acting on the president s orders essentially and that he was in constant communications with the president. That dove tails with what we heard last night from david holmes, a u. S. Embassy official in ukraine who said he overheard a phone conversation between Gordon Sondland in person with donald trump on the phone here in washington during which they talked about this idea of ukraine pursuing these investigations. Its its another data point that gives democrats a way to connect this to the president just as theyve been trying to do with Rudy Giulianis involvement by saying, look, Rudy Giuliani wasnt some rogue actor here. Theyre saying that basically Rudy Giuliani was doing everything on behalf of his client, the president of the United States. Rudy giuliani has acknowledged as much as well on twitter. So this this testimony is going to be helpful for democrats as they continue to make their case here. Yeah, david jolly, lets stay on tim morrison for a second here because the question was john bolton ever going to come to the fore . Would he testify behind closed doors or not . What might make that happen . What could he say . We get a hint of that at least from these transcripts from tim morrison who worked on side of john bolton. And as has been said he knows that bolton did speak with the president about ukraine. And that could mean a lot or it could mean very little. Yeah. And, you know, the intrigue around tim morrison, richard, is that he was one of the witnesses that republicans in their demand letter to chairman schiff, they wanted hunter biden to testify. They wanted fusion gps personnel to testify. Witnesses that wouldnt be entertained by the democrats. But morrison was one of them because morrison was on the phone call and republicans believe that morrison will testify that he didnt hear anything too damning on that phone call. The intrigue, though, is tim morrison, according to the transcript, initially did say that this transcript or call log should be moved to the higher classified server. That, in fact, it may be politically damaging to the president. Morrison later recants that and says, well, i was wrong. So which tim morrison are you going to believe . Republicans are going to believe the latter. Democrats are going to believe the first. But at the end of the day, what he will have to testify is what bolton would also have to testify to, which is that donald trump, on what we already know released from the white house, did in fact ask for the investigation. Everything else corroborates that fact. The intrigue will be around bolton. I think his testimony will depend on the outcome of the kupperman case thats currently being decided or or awaiting hearing in the d. C. Circuit. And chris alllou, the way ad schiff has characterized transcripts that were released today. He says the testimony released today shows that President Trumps july 25th phone call with ukrainian president zelensky immediately set off alarm bells throughout the white house. Both witnesses provided the committees with firsthand accounts after personally listening to the call in the white house situation room. Again, the Intelligence Committee chairperson chairman. Chris lou, as hes laying out this story, there are those who are saying good job getting the narrative out, staying clean in terms of going from a to b to c to d to e to f. But the criticisms have been from the republicans. This is not right on the nose, right . This is hearsay. These are not primary sources. Were going to have two primary sources on tuesday who were on the call. Yeah. Look, lets lets take Jennifer Williams testimony. This is pence one of the Vice President s National Security aides who said this was unusual. It was inappropriate. Said the president s demands for investigations were not related to the u. S. Foreign policy interest and were about his own personal agenda. And whats also important to understand is that the president wants to make this about one call and what we learned from the past week is that this is basically a scandal that goes back a full year in terms of their desire to remove Marie Yovanovitch, the Smear Campaign against her. Kind of all the backchannel meetings that were happening. The sidelining of career officials. This wasnt just one phone call. And even on this one phone call, obviously you have you will see theres some disagreement as to what the implication of it was. But the fact that this eventually was moved to a different server i think suggests on someones part that it was problematic. But i think you need to take a look at this whole picture and the fact that the ukrainians understood and we know that from george kents testimony and bill taylors testimony, they understood that a demand was being made of them. And they were basically willing to acquiesce to that until the whistleblower complaint was publicized. All right. Our panel, stand by. Joining us now, chief democratic deputy congressman of michigan. Representative, thanks for being with us on a saturday. And you may or may not have had a chance, sir, to take a look at some of the transcripts. This has been certainly a busy couple of weeks for those who need to read this stuff. Youre one of those individuals. Any quick reflections of what was learned . We see that morrison is saying i may not have seen much and were seeing from the williams testimony, i saw something that was inappropriate. Well, in her case, she obviously saw something inappropriate. In the case of mr. Morrison, he confirms at least mr. Sondlands account that the president wanted to ensure that this aid, this necessary military aid, was not released unless ukraine agreed not just to launch an investigation into the bidens but probably as important to have them go on television to announce an investigation of the bidens. I think sometimes in the hearings and in the debate, we get a little caught up in the trees. I think we need to step back and look at the forest. They corroborate. They confirm that what we have is the president of the United States ordering the withholding of necessary military aid to a country thats been under attack by russia. And only getting that aid delivered after being caught but trying to hold up that aid in order to get them to investigate his political opponent. Think about the use of military power in the United States in our long history. And put this in the context of some of the courageous moments that weve seen in the exercise of military support. This is really frightening. And i think sometimes, especially for the American Public who are perhaps in some cases tiring of this, its important to step back and just look at the big picture. And it is absolutely stunning. Representative, where have you been watching these hearings, number one . And and, two, what stood out to you this week . As you look into the eyes of your colleague that you know well and this is adam schiff as he tries to make it through, which in terms of, you know, moderating a panel, hes got the biggest panel in the world. Well, adams a good friend and ive been very proud of him and ive talked to him every day of the hearings and told him that. I think hes done a remarkable job of keeping not only us on task and focused on getting to the truth. But also, dealing with some of the republican antics on the other side. I think hes showed a lot of class. My takeaway from those hearings, i i i attended each of the hearings in person for the time that i was able to. And watched the rest of it. I was just really proud of those professionals, those Foreign Policy and National Security professionals who have devoted their lives to this country and the class and grace with which they conducted themselves. And in a case of ambassador yovanovitch, the absolute class with which she handled this squirrel and i think potentially illegal attack by the president of the United States during the time of her testimony. It was just a remarkable moment. And that that one particular moment, whether it ends up being part of an impeachment article or not i think is going to be more than just a footnote in american history. That was an amazing caricature i suppose of how this president has conducted himself for the last three years. Representative, you come from the great state of michigan. Pure michigan. And you are a swing state. What are you telling those in the middle about whats happening these last two weeks . And what what youve seen and what are you trying to tell them they need to watch out for . I tell them basically the same thing i said a minute ago. Lets not get caught up in some of the detail and minutiae because the president s supporters are trying to get us to go down that path. I tell them to just take a step back and just think about what weve seen in the last several months. In the picture thats been painted of the extent to which this president is willing to go to protect himself. Not just with tweets but with the suspension of 400 million of aid that congress appropriated. Uhhuh. For the purpose of defending one of our allies. Thats pretty frightening. Of course, the big issue in michigan today, richard, is that university of michigan defeated Michigan State university. I know youre happy about that. Underline, bold. Right. And thats an important point made. Do you think that the democrats have offset the criticism here quickly if you can representative of process of the issue of hearsay . And not having enough primary resource. Yeah, i think so. I think so. And i think obviously ambassador sondlands going to be a key witness. But the the the witnesses that have come forward in deposition, even the two depositions that were released today, these are people who are in the room. Who are listening who understand whats happening. And even though they may not agree with the conclusions that are being drawn, think the fact for our deliberations is becoming increasingly clear. Congressman dan from michigan. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you. All righty. Now, the panels back with us. Joining us, Jill Winebanks. Former watergate assistant special prosecutor. All right, jill. Youve got a lot to talk about. This has been quite a week. But now, on top of that, weve got hundreds of pages of transcripts of testimony. Lets start with that testimony. From what you know of it and what youve read of it, how important will it be to this tuesday . I think that every piece of evidence that has come in all week, including the two new ones today, is very important because theyre like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle and they all fit together. There is nothing that is standing out as somebody has a totally different view. Everybody, as the congressman just said, is telling the same story. And the facts are becoming clearer and clearer. So that makes a very strong case. And normally, as a litigator, i would say that every case has two sides. But right now, if theres a second side, if theres something that would exculpate the president , i havent seen it. And i guarantee you that the republicans on the committee would have let us know if there was something that helped him. And nothing is helping him. The characters of the people who have testified are unimpeachable. They are fabulous witnesses. You couldnt have created more more perfect characters. Something from central casting. Really, truly, they are remarkable people and great patriots for coming forward. Andrew, but from what we know about morrison, might he be the most republican friendly that were going to hear from to date . Im not sure but he was on the list of witnesses that republicans had submitted to chairman schiff in terms of who they wanted to hear from. Obviously, folks like hunter biden and the whistleblower and the whistleblowers sources were also on that list. But adam schiff has basically shut that down saying that the committee is not going to serve as a conduit for the president s what he called the president s political interests. But i think mr. Morrison might be helpful to the republicans in some respects. Republicans im talking to are really looking forward to kurt volkers testimony this coming week. They were really pushing democrats to release his transcript as soon as possible. Mr. Volker in particular denied that he had any knowledge of a quid pro quo with the ukrainians involving military aid or that white house meeting that the ukrainians were seeking with President Trump. So i think, you know, all those things republicans are going to examine and its important to note, you know, here that mr. Morrison and mr. Volker were both on the republicans witness list. All right. Our panel stays with us. Were going to continue to follow the breaking news. Again, the testimony, the transcripts from it, hundreds of pages of information. Of course, were going to stay on top of that. Plus, straight ahead, a look at the case against donald trump in the words of three people who offered some compelling, some damaging testimony potentially this week and just the start of the public phase of the process. Great riches will find you wh