Coverage of national and international news, including breaking stories. To roll the dice and gamble. I think the question of a pardon is huge. And intimidating to the whole process here and the president is wise to step back and not do that because the act of that and interesting to see. The mueller team can look at that as destructive conduct. In these circumstances what is best for him and, honestly, the best thing to do is not to plead but to cooperate, as well. Reverend al sharpton who is one of the few people that Michael Cohen has reached out to to discuss where his head is at but right now where his head is at but what about exactly is going to happen. He has come to an agreement with the prosecutors in the Southern District of new york. That is not the Mueller Investigation. We need to figure out what role the Mueller Investigation is going to have in this agreement. In the end, this all has to be presented to a federal judge,
which we believe is happening in one hour from now. He has to say what he is pleading guilty to. This may be part of the strategy of the government in this case. Hitting him with a Campaign Finance violation alone may not have induced cooperation because the penalties are relatively light. But investigate bank fraud and investigate tax fraud and tax perjury and if youre involving millions and millions of dollars, youre looking at serious Sentientiencing Guideli and that is going to agree to plead. That is the kind of pressure it puts on a defendant like cohen, if he ends up entering a plea. On the other hand, in the world of cooperation, life gets a lot better. If he cooperates and pleads guilty and gets a reduction, if he provides substantial
assistance to prosecutors, the benefits are literally limitless. He can go down substantially and make the difference between decades in prison. But heres something to really think about. If he is cooperating, the entity that decides what is substantial assistance is and always is the u. S. Attorney. So, it often arises that a defendant might say im telling you everything i know and the prosecutors are responding, hey, you know what, we dont think it is enough. So, theres a tremendous incentive for a defendant to tell them everything he knows and as Defense Attorneys like me say an incentive to maybe make some stuff up if they dont have enough. Liam, let me ask you this, some bank and tax fraud stuff involved in this, that may be the core of it. Stuff that most people dont pay too much attention to with respect to Michael Cohen and may not even care, what he did on his tax papers. But here is what people are interested in. I want to go back to a
finance contribution to or trying to silence somebody for donald trump . That is correct, ali. And i think what the prosecutors are doing here is often a common tactic which is we build the case on the most, the easiest made case. Which here might be the tax fraud and the bank fraud. Youre ready to roll the dice on the Campaign Finance violations. So clear on the first two cases that the defendant here, if its true, Michael Cohen, pleads guilty to the whole thing and then hes able to give you the inside scoop on those Campaign Finance violations. Who knew, who was involved. And thats really the key part. Those violations are so hard to prove because its so much wrapped up in the intent of the individuals. And the private conversations that theyve had. Often you need an inside source to give you that information. In that instance, if Michael Cohen decides to coop raerate, could be that person. Liam, stand by, danny, stand
down and he would be the one to set up a meeting with donald trump and us and we would go back and forward, usually not resolving anything. So, i knew him and he was no stranger to me. And he tried to be the mediator and the fixit Guy For Donald TrumpOn Civil Rights or social justice issues. So, when he reached out to me right away im like, suspect because im saying, why is he reaching out to me a critic of the president unless hes sending the signal that he is ready to do certain things. Because he didnt really devulage what he was talking about. I wanted him to tell me whatever he wanted to tell me. Was he okay with having this discussion . I told him, i said i dont do anything privately and i said
im going to tweet we had the meeting and he said, so am i. And he tweeted that i had breakfast with reverend al and we talked about him doing what is right for the country and him doing what is right for his family. I think what is interesting about this, i agree with the two guests you have that if its Campaign Finance, clearly, theres going to be the question of did he do this per the knowledge of the candidate or others. And what did he know because i remember his office was right near Donald Trumps office in the trump towers. What does he know about the president knowing about any meetings with russia . And did he have knowledge before . He was right there, which goes right to what muellers investigating. This could get very interesting. You dont know. But it could be very interesting. On july 27th, by the way, after it was reported that cohen would tell Robert Muellers special team that the president
knew in advance of the june 9th, 2016 meeting that donald trump jr. Had with the russian lawyer and a whole bunch of other people. Donald trump sent this out. He tweeted, i did not know of the meeting with my son, don jr. Sounds to me like someone is trying to make up stories in order to get himself out of an unrelated jam. Taxi cabs, maybe. He even retained bill and crooked hillarys lawyer. Gee, i wonder if they helped him make the choice. The issue here, rev, is that Michael Cohen was signaling to you and George Stephanopoulos that his family and his country come first, which sort of meant not donald trump who he said he would take a bullet for. Donald trump was quick to react that Michael Cohen was ready to talk to people. Making allegations, if he is now covered whatever indiscretions he may have done, again, i dont know what they
all may be. If hes covered them in a plea, then, the president can tweet whatever he wants, thats going to be dealt with in terms of the judge and the prosecutors. The question is, is there anything there he can expose the president to . And then we have a real question of where mueller goes and doesnt go forward. If, in fact, for example, i do not know this, he says yes, donald trump did know about the meeting with the russians, was seeking to have his son and others get information that would interfere with the campaign, that goes right down the street towards collusion. And if he knew about the Stormy Daniels stuff. So, i think Michael Cohen could be a very, very pivotal person as we go forward the next few weeks. Just to bring you up to speed. We do not know exactly what Michael Cohen is going to say, but we do believe he will be appearing before a judge. He already turned himself into the fbi. There is a hearing scheduled for
4 00 this afternoon in Federal Court in southern manhattan in which, if there is a Plea Agreement, Michael Cohen is going to have to plead guilty to something. Now, what we do not know whether it is a straight plea deal and by saving the government a trial, he perhaps gets a reduced sentence. That is something the judge would have to agree to. What we dont know is whether there is an element of cooperation and, reverend, that is the interesting part. You and i are both interviewers and ministers and you talked to a lot of people. What do you think was happening there . Was Michael Cohen trying to come clean . Was he trying to send a message to donald trump . What was the benefit of reaching out to a guy like you . You have never been on the same side of Michael Cohen . I left the regency saying whether he is sending a message to trump or hes sending a message to the prosecutors that
i left trump land and that im serious about doing things. Because stephanopoulos who he met with and hosting and also comes out of the clinton political world. And me who has marched on donald trump, you couldnt send more of a message to both sides than that. Lets go to tom winter outside the Federal Court now. He has been covering this since it broke. Tom, were getting new details on the 4 00 p. M. Michael cohen hearing. What do you know . Ali, my understanding is this will last an hour, perhaps an hour and a half. Michael cohen will say exactly what it is that he did and what he is pleading guilty to today. That is kind of our basic understanding at this point. Obviously, once we get inside of the courthouse and the courtroom, which is going to be held on the 20th floor of the building right behind me here, well get a little bit of a better sense of kind of the run
of the proceedings. But at that point, we will know exactly what it is that he is pleading guilty to and what, if any, sort of cooperation he may or may not be giving to prosecutors here moving forward. That is still a little bit fluid. This is kind of a little bit of a unique situation, ali. We have all the court paperwork and all been unsealed and i could give you a full run down before we head into this hearing and today were a little bit in the dark. So, thats kind of what we expect at this point, but, again, should last at least an hour and perhaps an hour and a half and as soon as we get the details, danny will providing the great announcement. You have to go to court right now . But ill be in court. Im literally going to go right in after this. We dont have communications in court, as soon as i come out ill give you the details. When i saw you leaving the building, which looked like 15 minutes ago. I dont like you being too far from me on these things. I want to be clear with what the
options are. The options that are happening, Michael Cohen pleads guilty in exchange for some sort of reduced sentence or Michael Cohen said that he has a Cooperation Agreement. Is that correct, tom . Yeah. So, mike sense is that hes going to plead guilty to a series of charges around the bank fraud and perhaps a Campaign Finance fraud and at that point we will find out what, if any, of the details of cooperation may be. But a quick reminder that if he does cooperate, its not necessarily with just prosecutors here in new york, it can be for any federal investigation. Thats typically how it goes at that point. Go into court, we will talk to you as soon as you are out. Tom winter is going in to figure out exactly what is going on. We have full coverage on this. Were going to be back with more on this hearing and it will start in we think about 20 minutes. Also big news of the day. Trial of paul manafort. First trial for robert mueller
and the special counsel investigation. Jurors today had a question, what happens if they cant rean agreement on one of the charges. Well have a look at what that means, next. Are you done yet . Does it look like im done . Shouldnt you be at work . [ mockingly ] shouldnt you be at work . Todd. Hold on. [ engine revs ] arcade game fist pump your real bikes all fixed. Man, you guys are good
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note to the judge asking what if we cant come to a consensus on one count. The judge sent them back to deliberate. Now, at this point, we dont know which count theyre stuck on. Its not actually clear from looking at the 18 counts which one would be a stand out. We dont know if they reached decisions on the other charges. 18 counts in total that they have to consider. The jury of 12 men and women have been deliberating for 24 hours now. Pete williams is at the court for us. A lot of back and forth for this. Did the jury say that they were stuck on one count or did they say what if we cant come to an agreement even on one count . Do we think they sorted most of it out and theyre stuck on one . Lets do the best we can with going to the videotape, which is to read the words from the transcript. Okay. Of the jurys question submitted to the judge. If we cannot come to a consensus on a single count, how should we fill in the Jury Verdict Form for that count . And what does that mean for the
final verdict . Put that altogether and it seems pretty clear, theyre saying to the judge, were hung up on one of the 18 counts. Now, i agree, its not 100 absolutely finally definitive, but that sure seems to be the most sensible reading of what the jury sent in this note they sent to the judge and the rules are pretty clear. The judge can accept what is called a partial verdict. Right. But before he did that, he said to the jury as judges always do in cases like this, are you sure . Go back and try again. That was at about 11 00, 11 30 this morn p tsin morning. The jury had lunch and they are doing what the judge said is trying to reach a verdict on still one count and they havent fallen apart on the others. We cant be sure about that. We just get these snapshots when they send in a question. If they try again and say, judge, were just never going to get there on this count. Then what he would do is accept
the jurys verdict on the counts they do agree on, presumably 17 and declare a mistrial on the 18 t cou 18th count. I try to go through the counts as the one stand alone and often in a case you can say here is the thing that the prosecution didnt do as much on. Its hard to tell. As the 18 counts break down, there is a group of nine that are sort of similar and a Group Of Five that are similar and a group of four that are similar. So, its not clear which one theyre talking about, right . Okay. So we have been talking about facts and we get into the realm of sheer speculation. It seems a reasonable guess. The tax counts are pretty much the same. Every year the government said he failed to pay taxes on all his income. The numbers change from year to year, but the underlying conduct doesnt. Thats five counts. Four more counts failing to file, tell the government he had overseas Foreign Bank Accounts, Foreign Bank Accounts theyre
called. When you get into the last count, the Bank Fraud Counts, the conduct is different in each case. In some cases, he failed to tell the banks that he had outstanding mortgages, other debts they didnt know about or that he lived in a residence in new york that he was actually renting or gave them misleading information. In each of those counts, the conduct is different and the defense has been on those Bank Fraud Counts that, you know, hes a busy man and traveling around and he eventually got it right. Dont hold him responsible for what may turn out to be misleading statements in the beginning. If i had to guess, if youre asking me to guess, that is where they are probably hung up. Pete, i ask you to guess every day, you must be hungry or tired. Pete williams, always great to see you. Probably going back to him very shortly, too. The developments in the manafort and cohen cases come as President Trump and his legal team are wrapping up. Rudy giuliani tells nbc news it is time to put up and they have nothing but a bunch of irrelevant charges. No final decision has been made but an interview between the president and mueller, quote, does not look good. Then in an exclusive interview with reuters, trump echoed giulianis concern of possible perjury trap and raised this eyebrow claim on the investigation. I can go in and i can do whatever. I could run it, if i want. Im totally allowed to be involved, if i want to be. So far i havent chosen to be involved. Ill stay out. With me now, nbc news hans nic nichols. I dont know what you make of that. Any response from the white house, first of all, about the Michael Cohen plea deal which were expecting in half an hour. Radio silence from the white house. They just announced, ali, theyre going to do an in town travel and the president slated to travel later today. Thats important because it takes away another opportunity
for President Trump to go to the cameras and talk. Thats not going to happen on departure. Hes not leaving by helicopter. Hes going to be motorcading down to Andrews Air Force base. In the morning an opportunity for the president to invite the cameras in and roundtable and so far it has been silence from the white house and they could just be waiting to get the details on what Michael Cohen is pleading to. Just like all of us, really want to get into what sort of offer was made, what hes offered to give in return. White house is just as hungry for that information, i suspect, as we are. So, so far, ali, no official updates from the white house. We will hear from the president tonight at 7 00. He has a rally in west virginia. You know, the president s team is doubling down on the attacks on the manafort, im sorry, on the Mueller Investigation and the attempts to undermine that with Rudy Giuliani in over drive. Any sense from the white house whether they think tha