And his former National Security adviser michael flynn. In fact, a jury convicted one of flynns former Business Partners just this week on charges that he illegally acted as a turkish agent. Despite all of this, Speaker Pelosi did not seem to change her mind on impeachment. Take a listen. My position has always been whatever decision we made in that regard would have to be done with our strongest possible hand and we still have some outstanding matters in the courts. Its about the congress, the constitution, and the courts. And we are fighting the president in the courts. If we have a case for impeachment, thats the place we will have to go. Lets dig into all of this. White house reporter for the l. A. Times and a former federal prosecutor, former democratic senator from the state of missouri, also a former prosecutor. Former aide to the george w. Bush white house and Time Magazine contributor and a former spokesperson for the House Oversight committee and msnbc news contributor. Senator, it is the day after. What is the next move for democrats . Well, i think what nancy pelosi is trying to convey which is very important is there is still evidence they dont have. The white house is stone walling. I think they really need to turn up the heat and get these cases into court. The contempt of the witnesses that would bring don mcgahn in front of them, you know, thats the argument some are making for opening an impeachment inquiry because it strengthens their hand legally to get around executive privilege. So in other words, the courts would be more likely to give them all the information they are seeking if it was under the impeachment inquiry as opposed to just committee work. What do you think they should do . Maybe open the inquiry and make it clear that is why theyre doing it, so they can get all the information they need and then make a decision about going forward. I dont think what happened yesterday strengthened their hand in terms of public sentiment. As much as he was good about not being biased and being cautious and careful, no one could watch those hearings and think he was out to get anybody, it still was not the kind of emotional day that would have probably moved a lot of Public Opinion on the subject of impeachment. To that point, the white house, of course, is saying it was disastrous for democrats and as the senator points out were not sure that public sentiment shifts but you put out a piece saying, you know what . I disagree. Yesterday may have been stronger than people realize. Well, again, you have to realize something. Most of the people in this country didnt sit there all day and watch all of the hearings wall to wall, hours and hours. Thats what people do every day on msnbc. Come on now. Shockingly here in new york and d. C. But most people, theyre going to digest this through ten to 20second sound bites, key exchanges. Their perception of the hearing will be very much like what we saw last night when they ran these montages of the big moments. What they saw, people who digested the hearing that way, saw mueller say he couldnt exonerate trump from obstruction of justice. He said right now at this second russia is trying to interfere in our election. He said the president s answers were not truthful. When you see it that way, your perception is very different than those of us who watched it literally wall to wall. So i think because of that, because of the way people really consume information in this day and age of twitter and social media and seeing viral moments, i think they might be seeing it differently than we did. Except of course the people who are seeing it are in their own echo chambers and have any of those people changed their tune . I think about that woman who went to Justin Amashs town hall a few weeks ago who said, what do you mean the president wasnt totally exonerated . What do you mean there was anything negative in the report . So, yes. The people who watched Rachel Maddow and chris hays saw exactly what you are talking about but im pretty sure their opinions were set. I think its true for everybody at this point. No matter what mueller said or did yesterday people who watch fox news werent going to wake up and go he changed my mind on donald trump. We have seen those people are so far gone now they would literally follow donald trump off a cliff if he told them to. If democrats in the house hoped this would change anyones mind they had the complete wrong mindset going into this hearing. A whole bunch of folks are in the middle here. Only half of this country identifies with a party, only half. 25 say theyre democrats, 25 say theyre republicans. 50 call themselves independents. Thats where this election will be won or lost and what they were trying to do yesterday was try to hit that group of people. Youre right. They didnt watch it wall to wall but they also didnt see a report come to life. They didnt really get from what theyre seeing on the news the damning moment of this presidency that the democrats hoped for. That doesnt mean it was a failure. It wasnt. Especially the afternoon i thought was really powerful. But i think we sometimes forget and frankly some of our people running for president forget that the way back to sanity, the way to remove the chaos in the white house is through that 50 of the people in the country that refuse to identify with a party. I agree there is that big population but if anything it makes the case why democrats need to actually have impeachment hearings so they can educate the American People about what is really happening and lay it all out for them to follow. How did republicans, and i dont mean hard core trumpers, but i mean your gop, how did they see this . I think it was the beginning of a small puncture at a bare minimum. Eyou open up major newspapers and the headline says mueller says trump was not exonerated and cant say there was no collusion. While it is the very beginning of the process, look at the slow build necessary for nixon to finally end up resigning from office. This isnt going to just magically happen overnight. I think part of the problem has been with the democratic com strategy has been setting expectations that there is going to be some slam dunk, some moment where donald trump is just proven, definitively, once and for all to be a liar and to have done x, y, and z. It is not going to happen that way. It is going to be a slow build of Public Opinion galvanizing in finally the forces against donald trump. This was so important an exercise yesterday because really at the end of the day that is all it was. It wasnt some kind of compelling, emotive testimony everyone is going to talk about for the next century. It was important because it started to chip away at the lie. You have donald trump, his strategy is to repeat, repeat, repeat, and lie, lie, lie. It started to chip away at that. It might not have been emotional, but Robert Mueller said that the president could be charged after he leaves office. Right . Chris matthews put it last night, just think about this. He could serve another term or he could potentially serve time in prison. Robert mueller might not have said that emotionally. He might not have been channelling robert deniro, but that is a powerful sentiment. Eli, i want to share what the president said after these hearings. We had a very good day today. The republican party, our country. There was no defense of what Robert Mueller was trying to defend. But what he showed more than anything else is that this whole thing has been three years of embarrassment and waste of time for our country. And you know what . The democrats thought they could win an election like this. I think they hurt themselves very badly for 2020. Three years and 30 plus indictments, how do you see this, eli . Well, the president was reacting as if he were a pundit on a cable news show yesterday saying that muellers performance was bad, that democrats hurt themselves politically. There was no attempt, and there has never been any attempt by the president , his lawyers, the white house staff, campaign folks, to grapple with the actual substance of Robert Muellers report findings. The fact that the president could not be exonerated on the subject of obstruction of justice, the fact that people close to him were solicitous or accepting of russian help during the campaign, and, so, they dont want to deal with the substance of that or the fact that russia as mueller sounded the alarm continues to interfere. There is nothing being done about that. The president has always looked at this solely through a political lens, through a media lens, a Public Opinion lens. From the beginning he has responded to what is effectively a legal situation for him. He has responded in a political way trying to smear mueller not cooperate, dismiss the entire thing, and to bring the American Public along with him. To the extent that nancy pelosi is reluctant to begin impeachment proceedings because she knows the republicans in the senate arent going to move the ball, trump has been somewhat successful with that approach even though it is plainly obvious that he has no answer to the obvious facts that mueller presented to the country yesterday. Cynthia, nancy pelosi said she wants to fight or democrats want to fight with their strongest hand possible. She said they are fighting this white house in court. Thats obviously them trying to enforce don mcgahn adhering to this subpoena and sitting down and speaking to congress. Do we think thats actually going to happen . Because theyre all about to go on vaca for five weeks. He refused to come two months ago and so far basically crickets. Hope hicks lied to them and they gave her several weeks to come back. The problem is you cant just keep waiting for the next thing to happen thats going to solve all your problems. Oh, you know, first it was going to be, stone is going to flip. Manafort has flipped. Listen to gates. You know, theres always a solution for them that doesnt include them making a decision. Theyre always kicking the can down the road. And at some point they just have to make a decision. Thats their job to make a decision about whether theyre going to go forward. You know, the case isnt going to get any better. Don mcgahn now after this hearing and the other tactics that the president has used, don mcgahn is not going to come willingly. They can pressure him in the court and then it is going to go up on appeal and take a long time. You think mueller was a reluctant witness, wait until don mcgahn gets on the stand. The case isnt getting any better. My position is they just need to make up their mind and decide to go forward and stop kicking the can down the road. So, senator, could that be Nancy Pelosis strategy . To that exact point if Robert Mueller wasnt an enthusiastic witness wait until you get don mcgahn and hope hicks. Is the right move for democrats to defeat the president in the next election . Well, i think that is certainly what nancy pelosi believes. I think she believes the strongest hand for this presidency is to defeat it next november. And she sees that the way the impeachment would work is ultimately he would not be impeached. So what have we gained . Other than distracting people from high Prescription Drug prices, the failure of this president on trade, the failure of this president on the border, the failure of this president to keep his promises and on everything he promised from infrastructure to building a wall. We are talking just about impeachment from now until next november or from now until next spring instead of the stuff that hes really vulnerable on. And she thinks the cake is baked as it relates to Public Opinion. Now, im trying to channel her here. I do think that if youre going to get mcgahn in front of committee you need all the documents in order to cross examine him because he is not going to be a narrative witness. This is going to be a little bit like mueller. So i do think there is some legitimacy to the argument we need to get the courts, for nothing else than for precedent, that you cant have a white house Stonewall Congress like this. Theyre refusing to give them anything. That court battle needs to be waged and won and then i think its appropriate for them to look at what theyve got and then make that decision. Protecting our elections should be something every member of congress and every american should care about. Yesterday Robert Mueller reminded us that in the first paragraph of the report he writes, there were sweeping and systematic russian interference and he was asked about it yesterday. In your investigation, did you think that this was a single attempt by the russians to get involved in our election or did you find evidence to suggest theyll try to do this again . It wasnt a single attempt. Theyre doing it as we sit here and they expect to do it during the next campaign. I hope this is not the new normal but i fear it is. But i fear it is. He said its happening right now. Will hurd asked him the question. Will hurd is a republican. Yet a few hours later, the same day, Senate Republicans blocked not one but two Election Security bills. That seems extraordinary. Well, how is this not the most important thing that came out of yesterdays hearing . I think it is. I mean, our democracy is literally under threat, under siege, under attack. One of the two Major Political parties in this country doesnt want to do anything about that. Why . Because it benefits them. I think it does illustrate a little bit the danger of waiting until the next election to deal with the crisis were having right now. Because we know now the next election may not be fought fairly. It may be undermined by foreign interference, aided and abetted by the president of the United States who welcomes that foreign interference, who encourages it. Who says if anyone gives me anything that could be damaging to my opponent no matter where it came from, russia, china, north korea, he is going to read it rather than turn it over to the fbi. This is why i think impeachment hearings need to start happening because we dont know for sure that the next election is going to be a fair one. Why would republicans block these two bills yesterday . They are doing Donald Trumps bidding. They are falling in line and theyre continuing the narrative of, oh, the russians really didnt do anything to help donald trump win in 2016, which is his achilles heel. It was so symbolic almost for republicans to oppose this because in their heart of hearts they know that the integrity of our elections needs to be protected. Its a tough vote to defend after the fact if another incident happens and you have to go home to your constituents and be like, well, i just did federalism. I was really trying to keep control with the states. I didnt want the federal government interfering. Thats a tough vote to defend. But for now, they would rather do that than be in Donald Trumps cross hares. Lets be clear. Mitch mcconnell yesterday afternoon in his own way called putin on the phone and said, i love you so much. Come on in. Come on in. The waters fine. We welcome you to come to america and try to rig our elections. Thats what Mitch Mcconnell did yesterday and its on Mitch Mcconnell. These Senate Elections i think he is making a huge he very rarely makes a miscalculation politically. I think this could be one for him because the notion that right on the heels of same day. Same day, saying, they are here, trying to go after it, and everybody in america knows who they were trying to help and Everybody Knows putin is trumps bff. So now its the three of them. We have to argue who does putin like better at this point, trump or Mitch Mcconnell . I say its a jump ball. Wow. According to the senator they all might be in the hot tub together. Thank you all so much. Important conversation. Senator clair mccaskill, and my other guests. We have more to cover. Next we talk about what democrats on the hill need to do after mueller but what about candidates . These are the people who want to replace the president in the white house. What do they think the next move is . First, registered sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, now reported he has been injured behind bars. What exactly happened . More, more, more how do you like it, how do you like it more, more, more how do you like it, how do you like it all you can eat is back. How do you like that . Applebees. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance, hmm. Exactly. So you only pay for what you need. Nice. But, uh. Whats up with your. Partner . Not again. Limu thats your reflection. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty a cockroach can survive heresubmerged ttle guy. Underwater for 30 minutes. Wow. Yeah. Not getting in today. Terminix. Defenders of home. Wake up theres a lot that needs to get done today. Small things. Big things. Too hard to do alone things. Day after day, you need to get it all done. And here to listen and help you through it all is bank of america. With the expertise and knowhow you need to reach that blissful state of doneness. So lets get after it. Everything is all right what would you like the power to do . ® all right breaking news this morning. Jeffrey epstein the millionaire financeer awaiting trial on charges of conspiracy and sex trafficking which he pleaded not guilty to was found injured in his jail cell. Sources tell msnbc news that he was found semiconscious in the fetal position with marks on his neck. Nbcs tom winter has covered the story from the beginning and joins me now by phone. Thank you so much for being with me this morning. Help us understand to the best of your knowledge what exactly happened in that cell. Reporter so thats really a great question, stephanie, and it is the question investigators have. What they know is that they found him semiconscious in that cell at mcc which is one of the facilities