Transcripts For MSNBCW MTP Daily 20190930

It is meet the press daily. Im katy tur in for chuck todd. Nancy pelosi says that the impeachment inquiry will move expeditiously. And late this afternoon, Rudy Giuliani is being subpoenaed by congress for documents pertaining to his involvement in ukraine. The House Intelligence Committee says it wants the documents by october 15th. And the subpoena letter comes with a message similar to the one that they gave secretary of state mike pompeo in his subpoena for documents on friday. Quote, your failure or refusal to comply with the subpoena including at the direction or behest of the president or white house shall constitute evidence of obstruction of the houses impeachment inquiry and may be used as inference against you and the president. The subpoena letter also requests giuliani produce any Text Messages and other communications that indicated Trump Administration officials were involved in the ukranian deals, something giuliani has not admitted in interviews. Giuliani says that he had Text Messages that indicate the state department was encourages his work in ukraine and that he was going to, quote, use them to protect myself if and when i need them. The subpoena announcement comes one day after giuliani said in an interview that he would not cooperate with House Intelligence Committee chairman address dam sh adam schiffs investigation. Will you cooperate with the House Intelligence Committee . I wouldnt cooperate with adam schiff. I think adam schiff should be removed. And in addition to the giuliani subpoena, we have two other pieces of breaking news this hour. First, the wall street journal is reporting that secretary of state mike pompeo was among the Administration Officials who listened in on President Trumps july 25th call with ukranian president volodymyr zelensky. And according to the new york times, President Trump pushed Scott Morrison to help bill barr gather for are for a Justice Department inquiry the president hopes will discredit the mueller investigation. We have gotten the best team of reporters covering all of these fast moving developments from the white house hans nichols, on capitol hill Geoff Bennett and de dev ken dilanian and pete williams. And joining us one of the reporters who broke the story about the australian Prime Minister is joining us on the phone. Katie, since you have the most recent reporting, ill start with you. Tell us what exactly happened on this call between donald trump and the Prime Minister of australia. Reporter sure. So this phone call was between donald trump and the Prime Minister of australia, basically the president saying to the Prime Minister listen, you are going to be getting contact from my Justice Department, you know, will yiam barr is working on a g inquiry into the roots of how my president ial campaign was surveyed and i hope that you work with him. The Justice Department has made clear different officials have said that this was really at bill barrs request, that he asked the president to please come this, to make those introductions to other foreign leaders whose countries could have information pertinent to this review which is being led by the u. S. Attorney. And you write this is basically the president of the United States i guess through bill barr or because of bill barr asking the Australian Government to investigate itself. Reporter yes. Because we know that there is a conversation with australian official and George Papadopoulous that really kicked off a lot of the what became the mueller investigation. And so that is true. And also we understand that no matter what bill war oig thinks of this investigation he just wants to know whether it was lawfully predicated. And it is clear that the president himself sees this very differently, as almost a settling of scores, a way to clear his name and also he believes that bill barr is kind of his guy, almost a personal lawyer as we saw in the ukraine transcript. And that is something that i think the Justice Department has tried to distance itself from. And explain that. You write that this underscores the extent to which mr. Trump sees the attorney general as a critical partner to show that it had corrupt origins. Does the president see bill barr as his roy kohn, is that what this reporting is indicating along with the other reporting that weve been seeing built up over the past few days . Yeah, i think that weve known for a long time that President Trump believes that whoever the attorney general is should be his roy kohn. He said i need my roy kohn, he said that is the role that eric holder played for barack obama, he has said that is the role that rfk played for jfk. So it is truly something that he believes. And it is clear from the ukraine transcript that he does believe he has that in bill barr. People around the attorney general say that that is not true, that is the president s perception. But clearly President Trump is willing to express that perception to other people. Pete williams, what is the position of the Justice Department . Well, i think katie has expressed it pretty women here. The and i frankly have a lot to add because ive heard much of the same thing. They did quib him with oble wit. The times story says that the president pushed australia i guess we dont have the first sentence. Pressed is the headline. Pushed is in the first sentence. Yeah. And they say it wasnt a push, it was an ask. And as katy described it, this is the kind of routine thing when one Law Enforcement agency wants the help of another Law Enforcement in another country, heads of state will basically grease the skids for that. I think the thing to bear in mind here just to perhaps amplify on something that katy said is that we know about bill barrs interests. He has been straightforward about this. In may is when he appointed john durham to look into the origins of the investigation of the Trump Campaign whether it was started on Firm Foundation and whether sufficient legal safe guards were in place. Hes always said that is his interests. So the Inspector General of the Justice Department is going in one direction. You have durham in this other direction here. And i think that the question now is that separate from whatever Rudy Giuliani may have been doing. And as far as we know, the answer to that is yes, they seem to be going off in different directions. In the Justice Departments opinion, what is the difference between this and the ukraine phone call . Because i know that they tried to distance themselves from that phone call claiming that although donald trump said im going to have bill barr call you repeatedly that bill barr never got that message and never did make that call. Yeah, well, and i think that the reason that they say the difference is that, you know, there is a there is a well established reason for wanting to know what happened in australia. Because of the fact that it is now documented the Mueller Report neff says it, but the australians have never made any secret of the fact that the sort of thing that the first democrat know that fell was australians telling George Papadopoulous that the russians had dirt that they wanted to pass along on hillary clinton. So if you are trying to go back to sort of patient zero, it does seem to be somebody in australia. And so i think that what they would say papadopoulous telling australians that russians had email, right . Pardon me, yes. Just to be clear. Yes, thank you. That that is the way that the u. S. Learned about it, that is the way that the fbi learned about it. And so you can understand why durham would want to start there rather than say look at ukraine where lets say that the cade r indicators arent as stron. This doesnt happen in a vacuum. And the request by the president for australia for look into the 2020 election basically, or are begi origins of the mueller investigation, comes on the heels of us learning about the ukraine phone call and all the work that giuliani has done and request that the president made not just about crowd strike and the server, but also to look into joe biden and his son hunter even though the ukranians had said that there was no there there in the past. The wall street journal is now reporting that mike pompeo was on that phone call. Mans nichols, the state department had tried to distance themselves from this phone call as well. Quibbling with somebody else not being on the call. What does it say to you now that they have there is reporting that pompeo was on the call . Well, we dont know if this was a planned official leak by the state department or are whether or not this was the reporter who ferreted this out in which case it still could be damaging to the state department. What we do know is that john bolton wasnt on that call. It is fairly standard to have some people listen into this call. I think when we reconstruct all this and now that we have not a transcript but a call log, you really get a sense for how the president views his role in these conversations with foreign leaders. The president insists and he has done that several times over the weekend, he did it again today, that his be may have was perfect. Well, now that we know that pompeo was on the call, and we know the Congressional Democrats want to subpoena pompeo for documents, now they could potentially subpoena pompeo and ask if they think that the president s behavior on that was indeed as perfect as the president says. Now, pompeo likely can invoke some sort of privilege, it could be either absolute immunity or executive privilege. And those would be legal fights to come. Back to the other story, the barr story. Among the interesting aspects of this is the double secret lockdown that the white house apparently imposed on transcripts. Is that now loosened. If there are other phone calls that we could be getting readouts in a drip, drip, drip fashion like this from the reporting around different news organizations, that presents a new threat to the white house even if they dont think that this particular story is terribly damaging. Was this call also put on lockdown the same way that the ukraine call was . Yeah, you know, it is clear that this call is one that was treated very seriously and we know that the call was restricted, this calls transcript was restricted to a small group of president ial aides. So it is clear that people want to take a lot of the president S Communications and sort of put it on lockdown. It is unclear whether or not it was put on lockdown because this has happened so him times and it sort of has become a routine or if it was put on lockdown because anybody was uncomfortable with anything that mr. Trump may somewhere said during the call. The Justice Department doesnt think there was anything untoward in this call. They say they asked for it and the president complied. But to the other gentlemans point, surely many other calls made by mr. Trump for many Different Reasons have been put on lockdown. And now because of the whistleblower and because of questions about the president s behavior at large and the impeachment inquiry, there could be some will within the administration for people to start dribbling out more information about a variety of different calls and that could be a long cycle for the white house. And jeGeoff Bennett, what wa the lead story until this broke, Rudy Giuliani himself being subpoenaed by house intelligence. He said that he wouldnt cooperate with adam schiff. Any reason to believe that has changed . Reporter he may not have a choice. And here is why. Now that were working within this framework of a formal impeachment inquiry, the message that House Democrats were sending to people whom they subpoenaed is ignore us at your own peril. So specifically in this let ter it could be obstruction of justice. Now, i doubt this committee has had time to digest the stories breaking tonight regarding the secretary of state and the attorney general. Even as i was walking down here before these stories broke, they already had an existing deadline of this friday for the secretary of state to turn over requested ukraine documents. Now they are adding an october 15th deadline for giuliani to turn over the documents that they were requesting from him, that of course also the day that the members return here. I think what is interesting, the shift that we have seen from House Democrats is not just this really quick time line, but also the way that they are talking about it. I think that nancy pelosi, hakim jeffries, they had a call yesterday with their members and tried to impress upon their members the gravity of what they are grappling with here. So nancy pelosi said it cant just be that you dont like donald trump. This is about defending the constitution. And one of the things that i heard from a top House Democrat is that this will be the fourth president in the history of the republic to face this impeachment investigation question. Nixon of course resigned before he could be impeached. Andrew johnson had to do with policies after the civil war, we all know why bill clinton was impeached, of course not convicted by the separate. In this senate. This president s behavior was an jeblgt profound failure to uphold the oath of office. So that is what you are seeing from House Democrats and the way they are talking about this, even as this picture of perceived wrongdoing grows beyond apparently now just this call with President Trump and his ukranian counterpart. And you talk about working quickly. It is echoing behind you because there is nobody there on capitol hill. Congress is on recess. But it seems that the Intelligence Committee and the committees that are working on this impeachment inquiry are still working as we know that Rudy Giuliani obviously just got these subpoenas. The subpoena reads our inquiry includes an investigation of credible laelgts allegations th acted as agency of the president to advance his personal political interests by abusing pouter of the offi er power of the office of the president. A growing number of statements appears to show that you pressed the ukranian government. They are not quibble going here. They have saying the president abused his power and that this is a National Security issue. Absolutely. And what is so fascinating about this, that weve known some of this for some time. Giulianis role in ukraine has been out there and in the news and reported on. But the fact that the president got involved in that phone call with the president of ukraine has elevated this to a different level. So this house subpoena is xwbas in part on news report, they are asking about florida fixers that giuliani reportedly hired to help him deal with ukraine, they are asking about political contributions tocon tfriday contributions to trump super pac. And they say if you dont produce the information, it will be on obstruction. So ramping up the pressure. Their enforcement mechanism tends to be a contempt sicitati. And that has to be enforced by the doj and they have been loath to do that. But this is a political process and what were seeing is Public Opinion building toward the idea that this is very serious. There is a new poll that suggests that 47 of registered voters would be in favor of impeachment and removal. 47 , that a big move. So to the is it event to which the house is seeking to enforce its will and get this information, they have a growing body of Public Opinion behind them that wants answers. And they are also looking for not only documentation from Rudy Giuliani, but Text Messages that he flauptflaunt flaunted on nat television. They want everything. Record, email, Text Messages. And giuliani is saying that he wont wok with adam schiff, he wont answer this demand and this request. And that really ups the stakes because Rudy Giuliani is a private citizen. He is not protected by executive privilege or socalled testimonial immunity which the white house has invoked for other current and other former officials. They are seriously committed to getting a response and prepared to go the contempt route it appears. Congressman mccarthy and nunes have written a litter to tto letter to ig and they are asking the Intelligence Community, they are complaining basically, they write that at no point in any of the following information provided to the House Intelligence Committee related to this issue did you indicate that your office found any of the whistleblowers allegations to be based on firsthand knowledge during the preliminary review you underfood to determine whether the complaint appeared credible. They are still quibbling with the second hand knowledge. But the white houses own readout of the call confirms everything the whistleblower said furthermore the white house confirmed what the whistleblower alleged that this phone call was placed on a code level code word level secure server, usually reserved for covert activity. The white house has confirmed two of the biggest aspects of this whistleblower complaint. Im just trying to figure out what exactly nunes and meadows and jordan are trying to get at here. The strategy and weve seen this before is to attack the messenger if you dont think that you will be successful in attacking the underlying message. And we saw this actually play out in the hearing the other day. The prp member from new york made that same point, that because the whistleblower had second hand knowledge, this in her words was a political hack job. Castro went after her and asked acting dni, is the whistleblower complaint in alignment with the white house summary of the phone call and he answered the dni answered in the affirmative and said yes, it was. And the person who represents the Whistleblower Makes clear that there is no statute that whistleblower complaint cant be reliant upon hearsay, that it has to be a first person narrative. So this is again republicans i think trying to reactivate a talking point. And this isnt a partisan view, but a statement of fact. Republicans trying to reactivate a talking point that had been dismantled at that appearing the other day. And again the whistleblowers complaint was confirmed by the white house. They released the text of that call, the readout of the call. Though it was not word for word. And also they confirmed that this call was moved from the normal server to the secret server, the more secret server. They put it on lockdown as the whistleblower alleged. Hans nicol, jeff bennett, pete williams, katie bennett, thank you very much. Well keep following all of the developments. Ahead, ill get reaction from one of the lawmakers investigating the president. Ent. Around here, the only predictable thing about the weather is its unpredictable. So we make the most of it when the sun does shine. Thats why bp is partnering with lightsource, europes largest solar company. 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Constitutional law expert and law professor at American University is joining us. And also beth fouhy, and also republican strategyist susan del percio. So Rudy Giuliani has said that he is not going to cooperate. Well see if he ends up doing that. And well see if that goes to the courts. But im curious, can he argue that any of hiS Communications are protected under Attorney Client privilege . What we have seen so far is that the subpoena appears to ask only for documents that are in his poigs. So it looks like the committee is trying to sort of work incrementally, ask for documents first and not ask for his personal appearance before the committee. And i think that the idea here is obviously to try to get his cooperation first and sort of let mr. Giuliani hang out there a little bit and continue to say things that might be helpful to the committee. Giuliani has said that he was sent there, working on behalf of the state department. Doesnt that negate attorney clich client privilege . He wasnt going there solely on behalf of the president. Which i guess would be a complicated thing for him to admit, potentially damaging thing for him to admit. Yeah, it is a complex thing. Weve heard publicly that he has said that he is there on behalf of the administration being but weve also heard from people close to the administration that he is not there on official work. So this definitely complicates any assertion of executive privilege. You know, i think that well see an interesting fight over what congress is willing to do if in fact he does resist. Congress does have the power to hold someone in contempt of congress. Congress has Inherent Authority to do so and has invoked that authority to either fine or order the sergeant of arms to arrest somebody. So what about the doj in that instance, ohio doif the doj ref play under this attorney, what happens . So in order for a criminal citation of contempt to be enforced, typically the step would be to pass it on to doj and ask doj to enforce it. But because attorney general barr appears to be involved in some of the events here, there is a question of whether he might be conflicted out, there might be a question of whether they would, you know, a fairly consid consider so congress may not feel that doj is not a very good partner there. I think that the other thing that Congress Might do is just try to civilly enforce the subpoena. But the risk there of course is they have already tried that in a number of other investigations. And that has taken quite a number of months so far with not a lot of things to show for it. How do the democrats move forward with this . On the one hand, nancy pelosi says that she wants to do this expeditiously, i guess understanding that she might only have the publics attention for a short period of time before it gets too muddy. On the other hand, people like Rudy Giuliani or those around the president might end up stonewalling the congress. So how do they move forward with their impeachment inquiry or potentially articles of impeachment if they cant get the that is the rob because as we were having a conversation earlier about momentum here, there is a tremendous amount of momentum. You heard most americans are in favor of inquiry. Not at the 50 point where they are in favor of impeachment. So it is important to lay out a very methodical sort of case for the American People for why we still think that we need to be in this moment. If we dont get witnesses like a Rudy Giuliani or others to come in and actually testify, because we are down this path already, it is still incountry wecumben leadership to lay out a strong and forceful message. But the challenge is the timing. How far does this bleed into next years primaries and take away from some. Messaging, policy messmessaging. And her statement that we should be focused as a function of congress that this is what we are supposed to be doing as elected officials, that is incredibly important. But i think that the grass roots finally feel in line with the democratic leadership in the house. And they want to see some movement. So it is very tricky, but i think that Congress Needs to show . Teeth here to get the grass roots among others in line. I quickeep thinking about ton Corey Lewandowski was brought before the house. He was forward foot. He was sort of dismissive of the question, refusing to answer questions, proudly announced that he feels very comfortable lying to the media. And the House Democrats on that Committee Looked so weak and so infect all and there was so much second guessing of why they called him up there to sort of get away with this, the president loved it, he tweeted his support. And now were seeing the democrats on a very different foot. You read from their letter to giuliani, they are not going to take this any longer. You could tell that suddenly they have a spine and the president and everything that has gone on with this have given them the power to suddenly embrace their power and do what they needed to do all along. Should they decide that it is better too ha better to have a lawyer or former prosecutor are to ask the questions . Yes. And you get a lot of grand standing. Absolutely. This is a job for the professionals. They need to lay out a case. You wont have someone like Rudy Giuliani being able to get into a back and forth with an elected official trying to make points off of that. You wont see the same delay tactics. This is a time where the professional staff is required to lay out the case because as basel was saying, if there is a chance to get democrat support on board, it is to lay out the case using the whistleblowers memo as a pathway to where they need to go. And make it show one thing after the other. Have democrats talked to regular voters from both parties about this impeachment inquiry if they are getting stonewalled . Can they make the kagindication that this is an obstruction of the democratic process or is the country so guided that anybody who is on the side of the president will immediately see the democrats as overreaching and anybody on the side of the democrats will see the president as obstructing . We know the country is divided, but there is a small middle ground and there are people that are open especially the republicans who are disgusted with donald trump, all they have to say is look at the president s own words and actions. He has not let people test tify before congress. And look at the whistleblowers claims. And lastly the Inspector General appointed by donald trump and Donald Trumps dni director both validated the whistleblowers claim meaning that they were investigated and they felt that it was worth pursuing. You think people should have their hair on fire. Yes, that is probably the most disturbing thing for me. Yes, because President Trump has done in exporting information about a political opponent while Holding Money over a foreign governments head who is literally trying to save peoples lives as they are fighting russia, it is so beyond the pale. We should all be screaming. But in the world of donald trump and this presidency in the last three years, people think that at this point we know it is important, but were not completely outraged. Somethings changed for sure. I mean, the republican members of congress somehow trying to explain away, oh, it is not impeachable, look at the bidens. Nonon t nobody on the president s party is defending this conduct. If you are talking about Republican Voters peeling away from this president , if their own elected officials cannot defend this, that is a sign for them. It is really horrible what is happening in this country. This is not political, this is not donald trump and republicans and everything else. This is like the fundamental of our the fundamentals of our democracy being put forward. This is political fairness, democracy. And what scares me is that there are six now republicans from texas not seeking reelection, 20 across the country. My concern is if they are not in n. Swing districts and they are more ideologically to the right, what will they be replaced by, who will show up on election day. That is what im scared about. Because does that deepen Donald Trumps resolve in terms of pushing democrats back. And to everybodys point, this is about fairness, this is about small d democracy. And maybe one of the things that nancy pelosi should be saying and in a way embracing republicans is saying it is not us against, it is all of us against him. And i dont know that that is actually being but the president says this is negating the election, that the democrats are trying to rip away what voters gave to him. And he did try to inoculate position of these accusations or anything that might happen in 2016. If i dont get anything done, it is because the democrats were stonewalling. They will try to take this power away from knee, they dont want me to change, to protect you or to fight for you. Lets think about that was about 2016. And i disagree with it, but you dont think that it will be effective any longer . To an extent it will be. But i dont think that were talking about the past, we are talking about the president of the United States interfering in the 2020 election. Were looking proactively. So maybe you thought that he was dumb and couldnt figure out what the russians with are doing. I dont believe that, but i think that they knew exactly what they were doing in the Trump Campaign. But in this case, they know exactly what it was and he did it from the owe vauval office. Lets bring in congressman quigley. I know congress is on recess. I want to ask you about tproces and how you on my way here, there were three stories breaking so the process is changing. Tell us what it will be like in these othhearings. Will Rudy Giuliani be questioned by subsequent members of congress or will there be a former prosecutor, a staff member handling the questions the way we saw Corey Lewandowski handled just the other day . Look, i think that you have seen varied levels of success by members and by staffers. I do think that there is a lot to be said for connie tinuity o having one professional ask questions for a half hour or 45 minutes. But ive seen excellent questions come from members. If people put their egos aside and ask 3 1 2 minute speech and 30 second question, we can do the job. So much of this is do you coordinate with each other behind the scenes when you for the sequencing of questions, do you coordinate how you will follow up . Is there a process, a plan . Weve been doing this almost three years now. And i think that there has been good according nation. I can only speak for the intelligence nation. I can only speak for the Intelligence Committee. Respect and i think weve done a good job. When all the transcripts come out from the russia investigation, i think everyone will be proud of the job members did. But i do think that there has to be coordinate to avoid deutschely indication and have a stream of consciousness so you can telling the story when the American People is watching. Will you be subpoenaing mike pompeo not just the documents . There is reporting that mike pompeo was on that ukraine call. Were living in real time. I believe that the secretary will receive a subpoena. Im not sure which committee and how it will be divided. I can he will did you that this friday the Inspector General will be back before the House Select Committee on intelligence. And on thursday, mr. Stroll kerr o volker will be before the Intelligence Committee. Kerr volker will be before the Intelligence Committee. This is the first time in over ten years where the press is asking me questions, my constituents are asking me questions, and literally answers are being formulated as the questions are being asked. Well get there and do it on a coordinated basis. And the reporting is coming at a rapid pace. The news from the new yonew yo times that donald trump asked australia to look into the origin. Mule much of tof the mueller ret is your response . I think it is argument for why impeachment needs to go forward. I think it is argume why impeachment needs to go forward. If you read the krans kricransc references Robert Mueller and right after the special counsel testified. The president went on to i think a greater crime, right. So i think it is a message that the only way this president will be held accountable for his actions, and the special counsel detailed what i think are extraordinary crimes, is 23 if are allowed to go forward and courts understand and force the subpoenas, the documents and witnesses to testify truthfully. What if Rudy Giuliani says no, he wont come before your committee . We are bound by the rules. The strategy of Going Forward on a criminal basis, a civil basis. Ive heard people talk about bringing back inherent contempt. I think that at this point the hoist would house would be willing to go 230rd wit forward with define inhart rherent conte. It is one of the few powers that the house has. They used to have a jail across the street. When p obey, they were allowed to be detained. In this case we can actually fine. But again, for now this is all virgin territory. None of us have ever been through this. And i think that it will involve leadership, the commit its and of the house to Work Together to decide what is the best strategy. The other value of doing it, the American People now has the taste of the criminal wrongdoing of this administration and they are paying more attention. Only 3 read the special counsels report. A lot more watched his testimony and more are paying attention now. I think it is harder and harder for the republicans to back this administration and their obstruction and i think that it creates opportunities for additional articles. Courts dont live in a vacuum is they will be seeing the public pressure moving forward too. How quickly dwill you do thi, before thanksgiving, christmas . Stop depends upon the president s next tweet or the next crime. You how effect 2ive we are. But we wont be the one that slows the process down. Do you think it needs to happen before the prime aerts begin or are you worried about it getting in the way of the 2020 democrats being able to focus solely on poll about city . Look, we won the house back on policy. We won the house back on health care. But i think that the American People has seen us do more than one thing at a time. Were passing legislation every week dealing from pharmaceutical pricing to Climate Change to gun violence. The fact that the senate is killing that legislation isnt our problem right now. Were going to go forward and do both things. What about the whistleblower . Chairman schiff says that the whistleblower has agreed to testify very soon. Anything more you can he will it us about that . I dont think it is a question of whether, it is a question of when and how given this extraordinary series of threats i think that the president has laid out. And extremely dangerous situation. Do you think the president is threatening violence against the whistleblower . I think it is more an incitement. He talks about treason and trait ertz and what we used to do with those kind of people. Not hard for people to figure out what he is talking about. And he is telling his base that he sees this person as a real threat. At some point in time he needs to recognize exactly what he is doing. This is an assault on the Whistleblower Community and a threat to the intel community. In a democracy we live with anxious Intelligence Community that operates in secret. That only works if there is congressional oversight and whistleblowers. Without that, wrongdoing goes unpunished, unknown frankly, and it also creates leaks both of those are bad for our National Security. Congressman mike quigley, thank you very much. We appreciate your time. Well be right back. Time. Well be right back. Limu emu doug hour 36 in the stakeout. 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I had to retire from Law Enforcement. It was devastating. One of my medications is three thousand dollars per month. Prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. For sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. And we wont stop. Join us in fighting for whats right. When it rains it pours. We have more breaking news. Were better thanning th were learning kurt volker plans to testify on thursday. Volker is one of the state Department Officials who is mentioned in the whistleblower complaint. He resigned on friday as the envoy to ukraine. Our panel is back. It is like a house of cards just falling in on itself right now. Fast. But it is a different house this time versus mueller. Because these are people like volker who are from the outside who are career Civil Servants who have for the most part very good reputations and they are not going to give it up for the president. They will not put their professional reputation nor will they lie and throw away everything that the dni was described as career intelligence official, somebody who would not put himself in the line of fire for the president politically speaking. And just wanted to tell the truth and do the right thing. How perilous are those people to the president . I know that Stephen Miller calls then the deep state. Whatever that means. I guess it means when you dont agree with the president. We have often talked about the audience of one and that the Trump Officials who come before congress are playing to the audience of one. We know President Trump is back at the white house much watching their performance. You have somebody like the acting dni who had a incredible career in government and the navy and he is only there because of the firing and resignation of all these other people. Including dan coats. And so he is caught in a tough spot. He wants to redeem his own reputation, he knows the guy in the oval office is watching every mnuchin and i found him to be he was pretty good except he was carefully choosing his words. He wasnt a democratic witness and he wasnt a republican witness. He was so nobodys side. And that is why i found the it is hard to be on nobodys side. At times he was a little bit opaque. But volkers role, what does his resignation mean . We know he was the envoy to ukraine. He was brought into help work with the ukraine heavy was brou to manage the situation and untangle it when his participation came the light and it was nbc news that broke that story, that he participated, he stepped down. And we will learn more when he testifies before congress. Thats why you mentioned the australia call earlier, and to your question about how can democrats and republicans maybe talk to each other about this. This is whats alarming to me. It seems like the president is trying to craft this coterie of supporters outside of this country, right, to support his own political interests. And thats what should scare, whether its volker or others that are in government or just outside of government watching this. That if the president is trying to create a group of individuals outside of Foreign Countries and foreign individuals to put pressure on folks in this country to sustain his interests, what does the ordinary american have to fight back . All they have is congress. And i think nancy pelosi is doing a great job. But that should scare everybody. What scares me is that republicans are allowing the president to put a wedge between them and defending Career Service Civil Servants, whistleblowers. These are people deep state. Deep state. The fact that the president is trying to create that wedge and force them to support the republicans, elected officials to support him is so disturbing to me, because thats a play. And they are totally being taken by the president on this. They are selling their souls for their to keep their seats. And that is going this is so disturbing because when history tells this story, they are going to look like the bad guys. The reason theyre doing it is, though, is theyre afraid of the voters, that donald trump has captured the hearts and minds of a solid 30 of voters in this country, and if he goes after a republican politician who might criticize him, that person has no political future. So theyre nervous about that. How do you how do democrats or people who care about this democracy and think the systems are under intense pressure and strain, how do you speak to those people . How do you break that spell that donald trump is their savior and the only person willing to fight for them . I think were seeing it happen right now. I think were going to see a lot in these hearings. And as the facts present themselves you think they trust congress . I think they trust what when they see certain people speak to congress. Not the elected officials themselves, but the people who are testifying. I think they believe things that are written down and transcripts that are out there. Thats why were seeing this break. But at the end of the day, i think these the republicans out there who are willing to sell their souls for donald trump, they will still lose what do you think of nevada congressman amaday who came out and said he supported an investigation and quickly walked it back saying no, no, no, i dont support an impeachment inquiry. It was a republican coming forward and saying yes, this is serious, we should look into it. And then very quickly running backwards. Thats the world we live in right now. He felt intimidated in some way. Look, lets remember that Richard Nixon also had 30 support at least when he left office after the house but he didnt have fox news. He didnt have info wars. He didnt have breitbart. But my point is that we cannot expect that at some point every single trump voter is going to stop supporting him. That isnt real estatistic but doesnt matter. Was saw the trump support start to break in the midterms. When suburban women with college degrees, some suburban men, those who held their nose for trump voted for democrats in 2018. The Trump Coalition was already starting to fray a little bit. But its the primary theyre afraid of. They know if republican and moderate districts goes against the district, thats not where theyre in trouble in a general election. Theyre worried about the 15 of voters who come out in a primary who are hardcore. Whats the solution to that . Gerrymandering . Gerrymandering plays a huge role. It depends when the filing deadlines are. The solution getting people to go and vote in their local elections. State elections. And making sure that the people in charge of drawing the lines arent going to draw them in such extreme ways that you get expeople people on the left and extreme people on the right. The republicans have been working on that. For years. At least a decade. And thats absolutely right. And i hope that we now understand that and are absolutely ready to push back. When you talk about what republicans need to see, i hope that theyre looking really hard at Rudy Giuliani. He was never my mayor, but there are a lot of folks that he thought was americas mayor. And look at how far he has fallen to support this president. Because i would say this is really his view of america. Not what he tried to do in new york, but in the way hes supporting donald trump. And that should scare a lot of folks. I dont know if it will, but i really hope it does. Basel, beth, susan, thank you very much. Ahead, the looming deadline that could spell doom for some 2020 democrats, next. 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Were just hours away from the Third Quarter fundraising deadline, a milestone that could give us a glimpse into who has the momentum and who may be on their way out of the 2020 president ial primary. The stakes are getting higher with every financial quarter. The iowa caucus is now only four months out, and the dnc has given candidates more incentive to ramp up their efforts to make the november debate, they need to amass, excuse me, 165,000 unique donors. Were keeping an eye on south bend mayor Pete Buttigieg who topped everyone last quarter with nearly 25 million. That was right ahead of Vice President joe biden who raked in 22 million. That was also before he was fighting off accusations of corruption from President Trump. Well see if the Biden Campaign takes a financial hit. New jersey senator cory booker had promised to drop out of the race if he didnt bring in 1. 7 million this quarter. He says hes made it. And remember, Elizabeth Warren has had the momentum in the polls so far, and were going to see if that trend is reflected in our fundraising. Remember, no big donors for Elizabeth Warren. Candidates have until october 15th to file their reports with the fec. And that will do it for me this hour. More meet the press daily tomorrow. Catch my show weekdays 2 00 p. M. Here on msnbc. But now i leave you in the very, very capable hands of my good friend ari melber and the beat. Hey, ari. Hey, katy, thank you so much. We begin tonight with this breaking news in the ukraine widening scandal. New reports tonight on Donald Trumps collusion scandal hitting now three key figures with attorney general bill barr on defense, secretary of state pompeo caught on this incriminating call, and Congressional Democrats hitting Rudy Giuliani with a new subpoena. Those are all trump figures obviously on defense as the house intelligence chairman adam schiff is taking the lead on offense in the democrats multipronged impeachment probe, announcing they are very close to hearing testimony from this star witness, the whistleblower. When do