And what im concerned about is someone who doesnt want to try to relitigate 2016, but wants to make sure our country is protected in 2018 when you dont have someone in the white house whos kind of leading a whole of government approach. It means that our response to these kind of actions by russia and for that matter other nations that may try to copy russias efforts, those National Security efforts are undermined by this kind of aversion in the white house to face the reality. Also tonight, another Washington Post report says that music promoter Rob Goldstone who set up that june 2016 trump tower meeting with the president s eldest son and several different russians offered to broker a meeting between donald trump and Vladimir Putin right after mr. Trump announced he was running for the white house. President trump has been outspoken about his admiration for putin. The russian leader dismissed the
what stood out to you most . What was your largest takeaway as coauthor of this . I think the big takeaway is over the last year, President Trump has been reluctant to publicly accept the intelligence conclusions of his own government. Hes been skeptical of their findings and hes felt that any admission that russia actually did interfere in the election to help him win delegitimizes his presidency and also threatens his ability to forge a friendly relationship with Vladimir Putin, which he sees as critical to a number of Foreign Policy challenges around the world. And its not just the president s ego here thats at the center of this story, but there are efforts and sensitivities throughout the government to deal with this. His intelligence briefers are sensitive about bringing any russia matters to him orally in
their daily Intelligence Briefings. Officials at the National Security council are doing work at the staff level to try to figure out how to safeguard the u. S. Electoral system, our democracy, but they too are sensitive about bringing that to the president ial level. There has been no cabinet meeting. There has been no full National Security Council Meeting convened by the president on this issue. And we just see this trickle down throughout the entire federal government. Almost a paralysis that many view as a National Security threat of a possible future attack from russia. Jeremy bash, because you are a veteran of cia and the pentagon, what stands out to you most . And what is the real risk to our security . To ours, to our childrens generation . I was astounded by this reporting, brian, that cia briefers and other intelligence analysts actually changed their briefings so as not to bring the
president the truth. A president ial daily brief without the truth is not an Intelligence Briefing. Its story time. Its fiction. And if youre going to give the president only part of the truth, a Commander In Chief is not going to be able to defend the country and protect us. And i fear that this issue is a major National Security crisis, brian, we have issues from irans Missile Proliferation to north Koreas Nuclear program that demand and require truth, facts, and intelligence and if a president of the United States is unwilling to hear it, he is incapable of protecting us. Susan, you have lived and worked in russia among other places, how is Vladimir Putin reading his particular copy of the Washington Post, this story specifically . Well look, the fact that the story came out on the day of Vladimir Putins annual Press Conference, a fourhour long grueling affair if you can imagine that. President trump doesnt even have Press Conferences anymore, never mind fourhour long ones, of course Vladimir Putins is sort of a pa temp kin Press Conference. I was amazed that he was so wellbriefed it seemed on how to flatter and even to suck up to donald trump that he was talking about what a great job donald trump did with the stock market as if they are sharing each others talking points. For trump to have called putin after that Press Conference to have thanked him for the positive mention. This is an extraordinary example of why phils excellent reporting in the Washington Post is not just a backwardlooking affair, were not just looking back at the election of 2016 and this sort of puzzling historical question about donald trump and why he doesnt accept the evidence of russian intervention. This is very much a story, i think, about trump trying to proceed and overrule in effect his entire National Security
team and continue in personal diplomacy to make this opening to russia that no one else can really understand why he persists in it. To me, thats right into today. I think its also very important evidence that the Quote Unquote Access Of Adults around donald trump is very limited in what they can accomplish. And theres this incredible ive written about it as a schizophrenia in our russian policy today. You have on the one hand, trumps very more establishmentminded team saying hey, actually, were not doing too badly. We still have tough sanctions on russia, were working with the ukrainians. On the other hand, look, trump is waging his own Mutual Admiration Society with Vladimir Putin and that has not changed. Phil rucker, take another swing at explaining to our viewers the importance of whats become a part of the job of being president , the pdb, the president ial daily briefing, its important to the functioning of government, the various agencies that give their information to funnel into it
how much of a staple its been and what it means to soften it. Yeah, well, brian, this is the briefing. The classified Intelligence Briefing that the president receives almost every morning and it is not a political affair. Its delivered by intelligence officials. In this case, for President Trump its actually often delivered by mike pompeo, the director of the cia whos a Trump Appointee who trump has a very good sort of chemistry and rapport with. What is is our intelligence what are we gathering . Its not a briefing about russia, but a lot of times there are elements there are actions and events that involve the russian government that come up in the briefing. And our reporting shows that when there are issues, when there are pieces of intelligence related to the russian interference in the election, for example, that that will sometimes be tailored specifically so it doesnt hit a nerve with the president. Sometimes it will only be in the written part of the briefing
instead of whats presented to him orally. With the chance that maybe he may not read it. He may not get to the bottom of that document or if he does, it wouldnt be in the back of a forth of an inperson meeting where he could have an exchange and potentially erupt or get angry. Jeremy bash, do you want to take as cut to the question as to why the president wont accept a briefing on intelligence findings from his own government and all the other subsequent questions this article raises . Yeah, i think the big question, brian, as you noted from phil and his colleagues, excellent reporting is, what could explain the president s reluctance to hear the truth . It cant just be his insecurity. It cant just be hes sensitive about the election. Why . Because one of the other things that phil reported on was that the president s strenuously opposed any congressional sanctions against russia. He delayed signing that bill for five days and pushed back on his aids who say you have to get behind the sanctions bill. Its not just about the election. There is something about the president s approach to russia that shows that he is beholding to russia, he does not want to confront russia, that he wants to support and back russia. That cant be explained insecurity. There appears to be something much more serious much more concerning about the way the president feels indebted to russia and i think that has to do with the fact that he knew they were assisting him during his president ial campaign and he has a very long history of Business Relationships and other ways of other matters of indebtedness to russians and the russian federation. Susan, listening to you tonight, i wanted to come back at this. So our viewers really do get the point, did you, susan, think in your lifetime you would hear a russian president compliment the performance the United States stock market . Well, you know, not in the current atmosphere. I have to say, remember, i was there in russia when george w. Bush and Vladimir Putin met each other for the first time. And that was in a different era before 9 11 and there was mutual
admiration going on. Remember, george w. Bush looked into Vladimir Putins soul, Condoleezza Rice groaned in the audience. We had a much better relationship at the beginning of putins tenure than we do right now. But this egregious Mutual Admiration Society is its something thats Pretty Amazing when you look at the context of the world right now. And i just i think jeremys point is an important one. If trump wanted to put our questions to rest about his admiration for this autocratic leader to russia, hes had chances to do so and chosen not to. Phillip, you get the last question because its your work were talking about, do you get the feeling that those around the president truly do view him as the outlier . Do you get the feeling that that my term and not susans, that kind of council of adults around the president knows exactly what time it is . I do, brian. And i get the feeling, especially on the russia matter that the other experts in the government, at the National Security council are taking a slightly different approach. Fiona hill is the top russia advisor on the National Security council. Shes a very experienced russia hawk. She wrote a biography of putin. She knows this subject inside and out. And shes developing a lot of work at the staff level of the nfc to deal with this in the way that the u. S. Government ordinarily would deal with a threat like this. It is just not advancing to the president ial level because the president is the president and he has his own views and his own priorities when it comes to forging a much friendlier partnership with poout. Heres how it works in our newsroom, when we go a few days without seeing phillip rucker, we know something is happening today. Thank you for being with us. Terrific conversation. Our thanks to all three of you. Coming up for us here, more on tonights explosive russia news, including the real fears among democrats that republicans may be trying to stop various investigations. And later, the pressure to get something to the president s desk for a signature while the calendar still reads 2017. What are the chances the tax bill wont be it . That and more when we continue. Without acting out that the calls that he was making to congress to shut down the investigation are gaining traction. You could see that in the hearing where the republicans were trying to shut down mueller. We see that now in a very worrying way in our investigation. And i think the strategy is they cant shut down mueller before they shut us down. Otherwise, how do they explain why congress is continuous investigation if they think mueller should be finished. That moment right there happened on tonights broadcast of hardball with chris matthews. Democrats in congress are sounding the alarm because they fear some republicans are trying to discredit Robert Mueller and shut down the various russia investigations. In the latest move, the Wall Street Journal is reporting, and well have a word on this in a moment, interviews of two of President Trumps oldest and closest associates have been relocated to new york. They will be conducted in the field and away from the usual infrastructure of Congressional Committees. Felix saider is a republicanborn trump business associate, rona graph was trumps Personal Assistant for almost 30 years. Those are the interview subjects. Importantly these interviews are taking place at a time when congress is in session and is in washington. Its a move democrats say is an attempt to rush this investigation to some sort of premature conclusion. With us for more, former u. S. Attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. And sam stein back with us as well. A veteran political journalists, now politics editor for the daily beast and political analyst. Counsellor, you get the first question, whats the significance of this interviewing people here in new york in the field as opposed to having them come to washington whether its to be questioned by staff or members . Its very unusual these would be the first two witnesses for whom this courtesy has been provided. The reporting that i saw indicated that the lawyer for
one of these two witnesses had had a medical issue and it would be more convenient for him to be in new york. That doesnt really explain why both of these witnesses are going through this process, and heres the real implication of it, this means that none of the congressmen will be able to travel along with staff for these interviews. And particularly when youre talking about mrs. Graph who is then with the president for about 30 years, shes a confidential secretary. So she knows the day in and the day out, its unlikely that she would have personal criminal exposure, but she will have a lot of information to provide to investigators. And i think well see pushback from congress, and i think that these interviews ultimately will not happen in new york. Joyce, why would you normally do it because someones in firm or unable to travel for some reason . Sure, you know, if it werent so that the investigators could be there and you could provide this as a courtesy to the lawyers, thered be nothing
wrong with it, but the reason for this investigation is to permit the folks on this Congressional Committee to have access to these witnesses. This committee isnt investigating russia for the convenience of witnesses lawyers. And so this is disturbing, it looks like an excuse, not an actual reason for moving the interviews. Sam, whats your read on the real amount of fear . How many people truly think this is an effort to shut down Robert Mueller or so damage his work product that itll have less value when he goes public with it . Well, theres two things here that im picking up from my own reporting, theres the Mueller Investigation and then theres the house intelligence investigation. And the fear is palpable on the hill that a move is under way to impede or end the investigation entirely. Its not just the fact that these interviews are taking place in new york although that is abnormal as joyce laid out, but the fact that as ive been
told, there are no interviews scheduled for after the year. Which is caused a lot of anxiety on the democratic side of the aisle. So there is as the chair, as the Ranking Member chair schiff said a lot about the fear about meeting a quicker conclusion than expected. Now that can bleed into the Mueller Investigation. Separate from that, there has been this whole to do about these Text Messages with fbi investigators, on conservative media, you can pick up a Huge Campaign to go after the people who have been assigned to it for their previous political affiliations or donations, and so the credibility is clearly under attack, and the prujs from schiff and others is that if you end the intel investigation, you can then lay the predicate for going after the Mueller Investigation, but you cant do it in reverse. Joyce, a lot of people believe is if mueller say fired by the president , a levelheaded people in the u. S. Senate would come forward and protect him and rehire him in effect the next
day as a Special Prosecutor with special orders. If no one thinks thatll actually happen in the real world, how would you fortify, protect, and Wall Off Mueller and his investigation . It seems likely that mueller is thinking through these sorts of issues and protecting the investigation in the event some sort of a Saturday Night Massacre Style Firing Of Mueller happens. But one interesting aspect of this whole problem is that even if the special counsel investigation is shut down, you now would have u. S. Attorneys who would have jurisdiction over these same sort of claims. And so if there are existing indictments, u. S. Attorneys can go ahead and prosecute those and that, ryan, is why we go back to this entire issue of trump personally interviewing u. S. Attorneys in some of these critical federal districts. Whether they would stand up to the president and do their job, i think thats what we would see
in a constitutional crisis of this dimension. Sam, can you think of any republicans, especially prominent Office Holders who may not have been scared by anything specifically in this administration to date, but perhaps were really scared to read the Washington Post piece this morning . Well, sure. I mean, there are people who have warned trump publicly and privately that his closeness to putin, that is someone unconventional proximity to prorussian interests is problematic. And those include, among others, marco rubio, Lindsey Graham, and so on and so forth. You know, its separate, but it kind of bleeds into this, Lindsey Graham is an interesting case where he has warned about being wooed by russia and also been very close to trump recently and kind of wooed trump by going in the golf trips and what not. Hes also warned against the firing of bob mueller. I do think there are a fair
number of politicians within the Republican Party who would both step up to trump if he, for instance, didnt institute these sanctions against russia that were passed many months ago, but also would stand up to him if he were to step forward and fire bob mueller. Our great thanks to joyce vance and sam stein for tonights conversation. Coming at a critical time in this case. We appreciate it. Coming up for us, the republican senators who have gone soft about the republican tax bill. In a new report about the speaker of the house and plans he might have to hang it up and move home to wisconsin when the 11th hour continues. Spokesman for utah republican senator mike lee tells nbc news the senator is undecided on the bill, also due to that Child Tax Credit issue. Republicans can only afford, remember, to lose three votes in the senate and tennessees bob corker has already voted against it earlier this month. And remember, john mccain, remains hospitalized in washington and wont read. Meanwhile a politico report if true would mean a seismic shakeup in the house of representatives. Report says Speaker Paul Ryan is planning to exit his position by the end of next year. They write, quote, in recent interviews with three dozen people who know the speaker, fellow lawmakers, congressional and administration aids, conservative intellectuals, republican lobbyists, not a Single Person believed ryan will stay in congress past 2018. With us to talk about it, White House Reporter for the Wall Street Journal and Darlene Superville is back with us, White House Reporter for the associated press. Well, eli, this math is tricky, lose three republicans, youre looking at 48 to 52, remembering the Vice President would cast the deciding vote. You can lose three to whatever combination of principle and or illness, but theyre talking about potentially more than losing three votes, correct . Well, the math is pretty simple, you laled it out there, and this thing really is sitting on the head of a pen right now. I think most people anticipate that one way or another this thing gets across the finish line at some point. It is dicey in the fact that the health of john mccain and thad cochran is so much an open question at this point, it really does give other senators, every other senator, including marco rubio, additional leverage because they may be enough to torpedo the bill. I talked to a republican tonight who thinks that what rubio is doing not just good politics for him, but might be good for republicans on the whole if they cquiesce to his demands, its
giveaways to the corporations and the rich, if you do increase the size of the Child Tax Credit, i dont know that thats going to blunt all of that criticism, if you did it by raising other percentage point, Something Like that, it might be a political winner for republicans as well as marco rubio, but the negotiations, the bill the. Conference Committee Bill will be made public tomorrow and the negotiating is far from over. Darlene, theres another aspect to this, Mitch Mcconnell cant look bad again. Thats right, Mitch Mcconnell also needs a win in the senate, remember earlier this year, he couldnt get the Health Care Bill through the senate which was another priority of the president s that the president and republicans in Congress Really wanted to get done. So, Mitch Mcconnell has some work ahead of him to get this bill over the finish line and to the president by the end of next week. Eli, lets talk about the
speaker of the house. Whatever people think about members of congress, your life, Quality Of Life varies so greatly by geography, it is really tough to be in the house of representatives, representing alaska, hawaii, the far away states, its almost as tough representing wisconsin and the speaker has missed the growing up years of a couple of his kids while theyve remained home in wisconsin. You made an interesting observation at an oval office event looking recently at his Body Language, what did you learn . Bell, we were in there with all four congressional leaders last week for a pool spray when the cameras come in. This was when they were trying to negotiate some sort of budget deal, and paul ryan, unlike the other three colleagues really struggled it seemed to just go through the motions of giving a statement to the cameras Body Language as he was sitting back on the sofa, just seemed over the whole thing. Maybe im reading too much into the situation, but it does line up with what tim reported, tim and rachel reported in Politico Magazine earlier today. Which is that this is just a
grueling job, the speaker what we dont see, we see them getting chased in the hallways, we seem him dealing with members facing Sexual Harassment allegations, we see him having to answer questions about every single trump tweet, we dont see all the hours hes flying around the country fundraising. This is a really grueling job. Its more grueling with this administration trying to do business with them and, you know, with talking to friends of paul ryan and people close to him and none of them think hes going to be back, i would put a lot of faith in that report. And darlene, tomorrow, this is almost hard to believe, but its on the president s public calendar, trump trump to visit fbi academy after saying the agency was in tatters. He just got finished trolling the fbi and tomorrow hes going to preside over the new graduating class. How does this work, exactly . It will be very interesting
to hear what the president has to say to these graduates tomorrow after going on twitter a week or two ago and basically trashing the fbi and saying that the reputation, its reputation was in tatters and the worst in history. Hes going to have a pretty fine needle to thread tomorrow. Well, thatll be interesting to watch. Certainly interesting for the fresh crop of fbi academy graduates. Eli, darlene, thank you both as always. Coming up for us tonight, its about to get more difficult perhaps for expensive or both to watch what you really want to watch over the internet, depending on who you are and where you live. That story and more when we continue. 32, to repeal whats known by the god awful name as Net Neutrality. Its expected to change how we use and experience the internet. Critics argue itll benefit Internet Providers over the consumer as one of the decenting fcc commissioners put it today, i raised a ruckus because todays Fcc Decision Rolling back Net Neutrality its wrong, its bad for consumers, its bad for businesses, its bad for anyone who connects and creates online. There was also this from a dissenting commissioner. The kpbl plainly see that a soon to be toothless fcc is handing the keys to the internet, the internet. One of the most remarkable, empowering, and Abling Inventionings of our lifetime. Over to a handful of multibillion dollar corporations. What saddens me the most today is the agency that is supposed to protect you is actually abandoning you. One of the losing fcc commissioners after todays vote, your internet provider,
names like at t, verizon, our Parent Company here, comcast, will now hold the power to decide what you are able to watch based on their investments or interests, they can slow down your Internet Speed or completely block content that has not beneficial to their businesses or relationships. The only thing keeps that is a promise from Internet Providers that it wont happen. Here to talk more about it our friend josh, a veteran Technology Journalist what is editor in chief for the outline. Thank you for coming back. My pleasure. Lets assign an average consumer, i gesds, someone who on occasion likes to stream a netflix series. How does this affect people, folks watching tonight . The think way to think about the bad ways is that down the road, the Service Providers decides, i like this service,
they pay me more, i have a better deal than i like this service. Netflix over hulu. Exactly. Its fast, hulu gets slowed down. They have this Degraded Service for something youre interested in getting. Theres another scenario where these Companies Cut deals with them. Facebook says, hey listen, well give you a couple bucks for every user we have, why dont you put everybody under the facebook version of the internet which is all of facebooks utilities, all of facebooks Messaging Apps and suddenly, youve got separate internets essentially. Youve got separate lanes that people are traveling in which could be bad for consumers. If youre an Internet Customer and they have cut a deal with youtube, it could mean that on some other service youll get the rotating wheel of death and itll have to wait . Or degraded or services cut
out altogether. There are countries where they dont have Net Neutrality, when you buy your package for your phone, i want this set of Messaging Apps or this set of apps and you pay a fee every time. Could you also argue that for rich folks, rich customers for the internet, they can afford their way around this and the poor, the poor again get screwed . Of course. In a situation like this where youve got massive corporations who are making decisions for all of the consumer base, youre going to have this sort of class of warfare that happens, right . Youre going to be able to pay for the better stuff just like you can pay for Better Health care in this country. Could you make an argument, this arguments been going on about the air waves, a. M. , Fm Television that they are public. That Its In The Air around us and that the kind of its like a utility, its a Public Utility . Yeah, i think, you know, at the point were fat you look at the innovation thats happened over the last decade and how much we rely on it and how it touches everything we do and every place we go at this point. There is an aspect to those
channels where we have to say look, there is a Utility Component of this. But the rules that were in place, prior to this vote today, were not so strict that they somehow stopped these companies from innovating or making profits. Comcast, verizon, all have record profits over the last few quarters. So really the issue is that theres a part of it that needs to be treated like utility, but theres plenty of room for innovation. Even with the regulations in place. What is the recourse . People who are dead set against this, how can they stop and reverse it . Well, i mean right now this is in the hands of lawmakers. A. G. Sneiderman here in new york has filed a suit against this ruling. So theres going to be cases that are going to go before the fcc, go to congress, there is a chance that congress can reverse this, you know, thats going to come down to a vote at some point. Depending on whos sitting in congress. Right now theres a lot of republicans who have had their pockets lined by these Internet Providers, and so they dont really have an incentive to
change the rules to go against what verizon and comcast and at t want, but, that could change, you know, were in a midterm here, anythings possible. Josh, thank you very much as you so often do for coming on to explain another issue to us. My pleasure, any time. Appreciate it. Our conversation when we come back with the highest ranking democrat on senate intel. Mark warner of the Common Wealth of virginia explains why donald trump jr. s time before the committee may be just starting. That and more when we continue. An Important Message about health care reform. Most americans must have Health Insurance by December 15th. Or pay a tax penalty. Even if you already have insurance, nows the time to cut through the confusion and explore all your options. You can spend hours searching for coverage on the Healthcare Exchange or you can make a single call to healthmarkets and let us do the legwork for you, at no cost or obligation. Healthmarkets Insurance Agency searches thousands of Health Insurance plans, on the exchange and off
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fornat and which forum is something well work through. But it is very important, with jared kushner, michael cohen, who is one of President Trumps senior lawyers. Theres a number of other individuals. Again, you cant ask senators to draw a final conclusion until weve had a chance to question these individuals directly. Final question, throw caution to the wind and predict for me, will the tax bill tas by the end of calendar 2017 . Brian, i spent years trying to be involved in tax reform. I absolutely believe we need a fairer, more balanced tax code. The product that has been produced doesnt meet that criteria. And a lot of my republican colleagues privately acknowledge it. My hope is that they will not just disavow it privately, but step up and realize if were going to do this tax reform, it needs to be done in public. And we need to do it in a way thats fiscally responsible, that doesnt Add Trillions to the debt. If this bill passes, it will take a decade for tax lawyers and accountants who in many cases will benefit from some of these hidden provisions to undo the damage. So im mildly hopeful that we may get enough folks to say take a timeout and lets do this right. But theres i also know theres an awful lot of pressure, pressure that frankly is simply put on by the president with this arbitrary christmas deadline for them to just vote this one product through. Our thanks to mark warner, democrat of the commonwealth of virginia for coming by and having a conversation with us earlier tonight. Coming up for us, omarosa only nating headlines for a second straight day. Every critic, every
the universe. Last thing before we go here tonight, the woman we know best by her first name, omarosa. That itself says something about the power of television, especially of reality television. The very same show The Apprentice which gets part of the credit or the blame which donald trump is president of the United States. Omarosa is now a former Trump White House aide. She appeared this morning on gma. While she denies the stories of drama that accompanied per departure, she generated mystery and apparently trying to sell a book before its written. There were a lot of things that i observed during the last year that i was very unhappy with, that i was ununcomfortable with such as . I cant expand upon it, because i still have to work with these individuals. But when i have a chance to tell my story, michael, quite a story
to tell. As the only africanamerican woman in this white house, ive seen things that made me uncomfortable, that upset me and affected me deeply and emotionally. Its affected my community and my people. And when i can tell my story, sit a profound story that i know the world will want to hear. So theres that. For his part, the president kept it brief and basic when he was asked about her today. Did Omarosa Share her concerns with you, mr. President . Omarosa is a good person. Thank you all very much. [ applause ] you heard him there, shes a good person. The departure of Omarosa Manigault leaves a glut of africanamericans in prominent positions in this administration. That is to say, she was senior most in the west wing. That is our broadcast on a thursday night. Thank you for being here with us. Good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york
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