Good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters in new york. Day 578 of the Trump Administration. And tonight the president of the United States is coming off a vicious string of personal attacks, comparing people to dogs and rats and calling Robert Mueller discredited and disgraced. He is neither. And now tonight the president is talking about what is at the heart of all of it. The russia investigation. Now that he knows his white house lawyer has testified fully before the mueller team. This afternoon, reuters interviewed President Trump. They report, he is, quote, worried that any statements under oath he provides to special counsel Robert Mueller could be used to bring Perjury Charges against him. Quote, trump echoed the concerns of his top lawyer in the probe, Rudolph Giuliani, who has warned that any sitdown with mueller could be a perjury trap. Reuters quotes the president as saying association if i Say Something and he, meaning comey, says something, and it is my
Brian Williams examines the days top political stories and current politicalcampaign news. Brian Williams examines the days top political stories and current politicalcampaign news. On that, let us bring in our leadoff panel on a monday night. Moderator of Washington Week on pbs. Former u. S. Attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. And jeremy bash is back with us. Former Chief Of Staff at the cia and at the pentagon. Robert, i would like to begin with you. What is the degree to which the trump camp was Caught Off Guard by just the idea of 30 hours of don mcgahn testimony in front of the special counsel . Its not tonight trump camp Caught Off Guard. It was mcgahn himself a year ago who was found this whole strategy by john dowd and ty cobb, the president s lawyers, to be off. Mcgahn didnt agree with the Cooperation Strategy when it came to the mueller probe. He advised against it. He went i know what the cooperation, setting the over 1 million documents from the white house and offering his time. In fact, i saw mcgahn go into
muellers Office Around 6 00 a. M. One morning when i was staking it out. He was fully cooperative then and ever since. Theres some reporting. Hey, joyce, cobb and dowd, their decision to waive confidentiality, that may go down as one of the more consequential decisions of late for our republic, correct . I think thats right. And they base their decision according to the reporting on the president s guarantee to them that he had done nothing wrong. So they responded, great, youve done nothing wrong. The best way to bring this to a quick termation would be for you to be completely open. So when robert costa refers to don mcgahn protesting this Sxroech Permitting Mcigan himself to be interviewed by mueller, it is because mcgahn as white House Counsel represents not the president but the presidency. So he was thinking about the
legal precedent this would set going forward, where future prosecutors, future investigators, would say, well, during the trump presidency, you were open and we had access to people. And he might have wanted to restrict that a little bit more as the clinton president zi during a similar investigation. So a little bit of an interesting mislocation of the sveu viewpoints here. Lets talk about what mcgahn may have been around for, what he may have witnessed, and reminding our viewers, he is not only a lawyer but white House Counsel. That makes his value extreme as a witness before the mueller prosecutors. Thats right. The oath that don mcgahn swore when he took the office was to the constitution and to the rule of law. Not to donald trump personally. So his duty of loyalty runs to the office, to the institution of the presidency as noted. What has he been around for . First when sally yates in january 2017, right after the inauguration, came to the white house and said that Michael Flynn had laid to fbi investigators, she made report directly to don mcgahn. So he was in the room when those issues were discussed with the president. He was in the room when the comey firing was discussed. And finally, he would have been privilegy to conversations about the cover story trying to explain that the Trump Tower Moegt was not a meeting with the russian government over the election. Well play the moment heard from around the world on Meet The Press this weekend. Well talk about it on the other side. Im not going to be rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury. When you tell me that she testify because he will tell the truth and he should not worry, thats so silly. It is somebodys version of the truth. Not the truth. He didnt have a conversation truth is truth. I dont mean no. Truth isnt truth. So rob, is that just the era weve entered where the president s lawyer can go on television and say things without consequence . Of course, brian. It is a bizarre statement. Putting that aside and acknowledging it for what it is, it is more revealing about how the Trump Legal Team feels about the comey firing. Theyre uncomfortable, publicly about having the president sit down for an interview with rob mueller to talk through president s intend. Was it corrupt . Was it criminal . Thats what the mueller people have wanted to find out for months. And giuliani is already contesting that. But julie does not know the extent that witnesses have said and what went on inside the white house and Different Things about the president s intend. When he says truth is truth, he is saying he doesnt want to go up against comeys version of the story but there are more
versions than just comey. As a fellow lawyer, when you hear an attorney use a phrase like that, your reaction . It tells me that he knows his client doesnt have a traditional legal defense. They wont be able to offer when bob mueller finally produces his report, or perhaps a new batch of indictments, they wont be able to say the facts are being alleged are untrue. It appears thats a near certainty. So instead theyll to have fall back on a defense of the mueller team is corrupt when you cant believe anything about facts. There is no longer any rational truthful it is all a he said, she said. This is a dangerous place to be. Our courts are uniquely suited to fert it out. Thats what prosecutors do for a living, thats what giuliani did
for a living. Now hes just reduced to shilling for a president who may not have a Throwing Stand on at the end of the day. Where do you think the president got the idea he could run the Mueller Investigation . And how would that work exactly . Well, he has, i think, a constitutionally sense of the presidency. He believes basically presidency cannot be constrained by law. Of course, thats antithetical to american tradition and he can do this in numerous ways. One of the ways we need to be concerned about, brian, is that the president could try strip the Security Clearances of bob mueller and his investigators. Of course, they hold those Security Clearances because theyre conducting a Counter Intelligence investigation. They have to have successes access to information. It is a way the president could try purport to undermine the investigation. There was an effort on the hill at this hour led by senator mark
warner of virginia. The vice Cheryl Of The Committee To Pre Strength president from doing just that. And i want to read this tweet from the president over the weekend. Study late Joseph Mccarthy. We are now in a period with mueller and his gang that makes Joseph Mccarthy look like a baby. Rigged witch hunt. What would it look like if republicans on the hill reared up and said, enough. What would it look like if the president pulled a few more critical Security Clearances, for example . At this point, brian, based on my reporting, the republican party, theyre fully with President Trump ahead of the midterm elections to drag them across the finish line as they face possible blue wave. At this point some people are privately grumbling if the president moves on mueller or rosenstein, they will speak up. So far the notable people
speaking up are those who have chosen to retire or those who have decided to leave office. And joyce, what should we glean from mr. Cohens silence of late . What are the chances the decision to participate, to flip, has already been made and that is underway . Cohen was initially pretty loud. We learned an awful lot from his public statements. He certainly didnt make any effort to sequester himself after his home and office were searched. So what weve seen, there virtual Radio Silence coming from cohen would seem to signal he is either in the process of negotiating with prosecutors, trying to come up with a cooperation agreement, important they have actually reached a cooperation agreement. That would be a good explanation for his dropping off of the public radar screen. Interesting stuff tonight and a lot of it. Our thanks. And coming up on a monday night, truth isnt truth, is the sounds bite that made the headlines. There was Something Else that rudy said that flew in the face of the facts right there on the printed page. And later, an uncomfortable conversation with a young writer ready to become part of the national conversation. As The 11th Hour is just Getting Started on a monday night. So you just walk around telling people geico could help them save money on Car Insurance . Yea,that and homeowners, renters, motorcycle and boat insurance. Huh. Thats nice. What happens when you catch a fish . Gecko whoa. Geico. More than just Car Insurance. See how much you could save at geico. Com. Im ok
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intention to meet with russians . They just knew she had a russian name. Shes not a representative of the russian government so this is much ado about nothing. Lets read the email, again, from a guy named Rob Goldstone to donald trump jr. Setting up the meeting. The Crown Prosecutor of russia offered to provide the trump gain some official documents is that information that would incriminate hillary and her dealings with russia, and would be very useful to your father. He goes on to write, this is obviously very high level and sensitive information. But is part of this, might as well be in all capital letters, russia and its governments support for mr. Trump. Djtj, donald trump jr. , replied minutes later, if its what you say, i love it. Especially later in the summer. We have asked our guests to rush to our conversation. Jeremy, just remind us the short list of facts versus myth. All dating back to this one fateful meeting. One myth was that it was just a meeting with don jr. No, it was a meeting with the entire Senior High Command of the trump organizations campaign. It was a meeting with don jr. , with paul manafort, the campaign chairman, and jared kushner. Second myth was this was just one lone lawyer to talk about adoptions. No, it was a russian known delegation. It was a meeting with multiple players, all of whom had significant ties to the russian government, and they came with specific they came to say that they intended to utilize the information that they had stolen through cyber attacks. They intended to weaponize and it interfere in the 2016 election. Then for some reason because they didnt bring the documents to the meeting and they didnt
actually do any collusion or conspiracy across the table, that somehow that wasnt conspiracy. Of course, thats not how it was set up. It was them coming on behalf of the russian government to say well be doing this and in response we want sanctions relief which is exactly what they ended up getting. And what happened next . Donald trump mentioned those emails after they were released in october. 150 times. An average of five times a day. It was a central part of his Closing Argument as part of the final 30 days of the president ial campaign. And there again we get on read the email from this goldstone who is kind of a barney character from overseas, laying out the stakes of the meeting. I know the feds have the equivalent of blinders and bose head phones in muellers office. What must they make, however, of these repeated and different attempts at Cover Stories for the meeting . Its never good when youre
always trying to come one a cover story. And especially when the Cover Stories are all centered around this one meeting in trump tower. There is this sort of progressive truth telling as the truth begins to come out. It really makes it look like there is something to bhid this meeting. But the reality, brian, is there is not a lot to hide. The emails really tell the story. There is a federal law that makes it illegal for a foreigner to provide assistance to a United States campaign by means of a donation or a contribution and that is pretty much the story that this email tells. It says not just a russian citizen but actually someone linked to the Crown Prosecutor wants to present dirt on Hillary Clinton as a donation to the trump campaign. And three senior members of that campaign eagerly take meeting. This is a lot less an email chain ander month like a long loading, smoking gun. I think this is a very good piece of evidence for the mueller team. Jarrell, you have to love the hollywood inspired wording of taking meeting. When giuliani said anyone would have 15 meeting, what is your answer to that . No way. Ive worked on president ial campaigns. There is no way you sit down with a Foreign Government delegation and they offer to attack election, interfere, interseed, play a role and then you say okay, well take and it then you act on it. That never happens. Thats not normal. Thats not just taking opposition research. If you were the lawyer for donald jr. , how much potential exposure would you be warning your client about, exactly . He has a lot of exposure here. It will come down to his State Of Mind and his level of knowledge. But the emails in and of themselves are very important detail. And then we have the efforts to cover up the meeting. So it doesnt look great for him. From this point of view. And i think one of the issues, quite frankly, is whether or not prosecutors will view this as an independent pact theyll charge. Because this particular statute is not frequently used. But this is a relatively egregious case involving not just a foreigner but representatives of a Foreign Government itself. Thanks for sticking around. Sometimes our first segment is not enough. We appreciate it. Comment