The days biggest political and news stories, with interviews and reporting from around the nation. Thoug a sense the timing of the conversation was while the Manafort Trial was under way . Im going to credit Rudy Giuliani in his last corrected statement in which he says to me that he believes it was quite a bit longer before the trial. Now, manafort was facing a lot of charges in a pretty damning case of tax evasion and bank fraud. It was fairly, you know, high odds that he was going to be convicted based on those case based on those charges and the evidence that the government had. But, again, im just going to let giuliani say what he wants to say, which is that now he remembers it really probably was in june rather than in august. So further along than recently. Did you get a sense at all, carol, from your conversation with Rudy Giuliani as to why today did he mention this . Hes obviously given a lot of interviews in the past. Was it your reading of his intent that maybe he was trying to send a signal to Paul Manafort . I dont try to speculate or
thing. So that outburst prompting a rare public response from sessions who says he, quote, took control of the department of justice the day he was sworn in, and that it wont be improperly influenced by political considerations. With me now, former congresswoman elizabeth holtsman, a member of the House Judiciary Committee, jess mcintosh, a former aide to hillary clinton, Betsy Woodruff of the daily beast, and John Flannery. Great to have all of you with us. Lots to break down this hour. Congressman, if i may, begin with you, trump on one hand slamming his own Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, the man he put in there saying he did it because of his loyalty, he also went after Michael Cohen. But seems that at least floating the idea through various comments, either through Rudy Giuliani or ambiguous answers on fox news that he is considering a pardon for Paul Manafort. What do you make of this . Well, i you know, im going to go back to watergate,
and im going to say that part of the articles of impeachment that was voted by the House Judiciary Committee had to do with offers of pardons to the burglars to keep them quiet. Lets just not forget that. That was part of it. The president of the United States authorized pardons for people, the burglars, to keep them quiet. Are you seeing parallels . Of course. What are the parallels . Is it the tone . Maybe back then they were more explicit. Were not having a Single Person from the white house coming out and saying yes, he will pardon Paul Manafort. You dont need to say yes, he will. That was very secret, the pardons, hush money was secret, what are the parallels, the president of the United States knows donald trump knows that manafort may have some very, very damning information about him. It could even be criminal. It could even have to do with collusion. Remember, manafort was in
ukraine dealing with the president of ukraine, putin was supporting that guy, and now manafort becomes the campaign manager. Manafort may know a lot. Definitely parallels. May know a lot. Wouldnt you want to keep manaforts mouth shut . And this is not the first time, by the way, that we know that issues with regard to pardons have come out. Rudy doesnt just spill out stuff thats not relevant. Hes sending a message to manafort, keep your mouth shut, dont say anything. Jess, i see youre kind of wanting to get in on this part of the conversation. Yeah. Whats your take . The congresswoman is absolutely correct about this, there are its hard to keep track because we literally had that tuesday split screen courtroom situation, but there are actually two criminal conspiracies that were involved in putting donald trump in the white house that right now dont have much to do with each other. You have Michael Cohen and the hush money to the mistresses. You have Paul Manafort who is at the crux of the collusion conversation. And right now trump and his team
seem really adamant about moving the goal posts to say that this hush money to mistresses doesnt matter, of course it does, it violates u. S. Law, but theres no collusion and we dont have that, and they seem pretty sure that they can be out on a limb with that. I think thats probably because they seem pretty confident that Paul Manafort will keep his mouth shut, perhaps because of a possible pardon hanging out there for him. Yeah, to quote the president , he says a crime is not a crime, or at least suggesting that what Michael Cohen did is not a crime. Can donald trump really distance himself from Michael Cohen . If you know somebody for ten years, it gets a little hard. He was described as a fixer by no less than Rudy Giuliani who said thats what we do at law firms, then he lost his job the next day, which tells us that maybe law firms have a better ethical standard than rudy and the beast, if you will. I dont see how he gets away from it. If you even listen to the one tape recording we had, it sort
of puts the light of this whole mess about the girlfriends, and that is that hes in a conversation, and its all about the campaign. One is about talking to reverends in the south somewhere, another is about whether the divorce and those details will come out before the election is over. And then the third one is how do we pay off ami . How do we do that . And he says cash. That is trump says cash. And its cohen thats coming back and says no, no, no, well do it by checks and we now know that that turned out not to be a good idea, for a couple reasons, including it would identify the fact that there was no journalistic behavior. We have the other example in which plainly cash is being channeled around and its not from a campaign and its from trump and trump is being contradicted by cohen and
details and facts and all sorts of things. Thats what he does. Let me share with you guys some news were gertitting here and you talked about ami and the david pecker situation. Obviously hes agreed, or at least received an agreement of sorts to in the Michael Cohen connection about the payments. We got this wire from the ap a short while ago, the National Enquire esafe held damaging trump stories. The National Enquirerer kept a safe containing documents on hush money payments and other stories it killed as part of its cozy relationship with donald trump leading up to 2016 president ial election, people familiar with the arrangement have told the associated press, we have that up there on the screen. So another interesting layer in development here. Betsy let me ask you quickly about cohens plea because trump said today that cohens plea was really about other business, it wasnt about crime. Take a listen. It was in another business,
totally unrelated to me where i guess there was fraud involved and loans and taxi cabs and all sorts of things, nothing to do with me. He had an outside business. He worked for me you could really say it was more or less parttime. He had other businesses, he had other clients. Im not his only client. Betsy, what do you make of that, the president there trying to distance Michael Cohen, trying to belittle him in stature, in his role, not in stature, how does that play out as a Defense Strategy . There is a greater truth in what the president is saying here. Some of the charges arent directly related to the work he did on behalf of the president or on behalf of then candidate donald trump. But, of course, the most interesting part of that plea deal, the two Campaign Finance violations to which Michael Cohen did plead guilty and that cohen himself said under oath that the president of the United States directed him to engage in illegal activity to help the president s campaign. All the throat clearing in the
read. Meaning hes being compelled to testify, under penalty of contempt, if he lies, perjury. Thats what i understand his circumstance is. Hes probably a reluctant cooperator. All the documents will come to the government and what theyll identify, or not, is that there was a lot of goings on that had nothing to do with journalistic enterprise and that these organs of ami, particularly National Enquirer were being used as part of the election and not being declared on any filing. On top of it we have a typical conspiracy to defraud the United States by undermining the election process. Theres a whole series of things opening up. The fact that they want to give immunity to pecker means theyre interested in getting others. Now, who . Well, were going to have the president , perhaps, as an Unindicted Coconspirator, i hope somebody has the gumption to
name him in the indictment. The president whos compromising the United States and using these pardons that he suggests, thats a violation of his oath of due process. That is to say hes using his oath to protect himself from an investigation. And those he would keep quiet, just as in nixon. If you can give nixon credit, as elizabeth might i wouldnt. He was not as bad as this guy, if thats possible to conceive of. When you think about the fact that Michael Cohen recorded his conversations with the president , omarosa recorded conversations, and National Enquirer holding onto these stories it killed, it seems anybody who was in trumps orbit at least in some case was trying to keep record of some of this negativity and some of this fallout in the event that they would be in the position that theyre in today. Im so glad you brought that up. Ive been really drawn to this
part of the story. The number of people who are very close to him who had known him for a decade plus who were apparently either trying to cover their own actions by having a tape of him doing wrongdoing, or waiting to set him up years down the road. The man ran his business like a small time crime boss and he brought people around him, the thugs who threatened people when they tried to take his ties out of macys, up to his fixer lawyer Michael Cohen, he surrounded himself with these people who played these smalltime Crime Syndicate roles. I guess they played them well enough that they knew to record the boss telling them to break the law because one day they might have to play that in court. And today is that day, i guess. It seems like trust was low among all those parties. Congresswoman, before we go, id like to ask your thoughts on the fact that Jeff Sessions today responded to the president. Hes been the subject of many attacks, but to see the Attorney General defend his own position and what hes been doing at the department of justice, what do
you make of that, rare . Well, it is rare. Its a surprise because Jeff Sessions has been pretty quiet about all this stuff. But i just want to go back to the point i made before about pardons. And that John Flannery mentioned. Its not an issue of due process. Its called an abuse of power. That is an impeachable offense. Abuse of power, to use your power, a pardon to shut people up because they could tell the truth about you when youve violated the law. Trying to get rid of sessions because he recused himself, which he had to do, under ethics rules of the justice department, because what trump wants is to shut down the russia investigation. Thats an abuse of power. What we are seeing here is the president of the United States systematically, time after time, this circumstance, that circumstance, abusing the power of his office. The swamp wasnt in washington. The swamp was in trump tower. And its now in the oval office. I wonder if hes being advised against Firing People like Rod Rosenstein and jeff
sessions in the same way we heard giuliani advising him against pardoning Paul Manafort. Interesting to see how it plays out. Fascinating conversation. Congresswoman elizabeth holtsman, Betsy Woodruff. John flannery, stick around with me for a bit. Did trump accidentally confess to a crime in his fox interview . Plus this. Ill tell you what, if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. I think everybody would be very poor. Im going to talk live to progressive Billionaire Tom Steyer who is leading the impeachment charge. Also joining tonight the wife of the guilty trump aide whos been cooperating with the mueller probe, her first interview since the cohen news broke. And trump rebuked by the South African Government over a bizarre tweet. He lifted straight from fox news. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. S out into the world, full of hope. And we dont want Something Like meningitis b
getting in their way. Meningococcal group b disease, or meningitis b, is real. Bexsero is a vaccine to help prevent meningitis b in 1025 year olds. Even if meningitis b is uncommon, thats not a chance were willing to take. Meningitis b is different from the meningitis most teens were probably vaccinated against when younger. Were getting the word out against meningitis b. Our teens are getting bexsero. Bexsero should not be given if you had a severe allergic reaction after a previous dose. Most common side effects are pain, redness or hardness at the injection site; muscle pain; fatigue; headache; nausea; and joint pain. Bexsero may not protect all individuals. Tell your healthcare professional if youre pregnant or if you have received any other meningitis b vaccines. Ask your healthcare professional about the risks and benefits of bexsero and if vaccination with bexsero is right for your teen. Moms, we cant wait. Brians back . He doesnt get my room. Hes only going to be here for like a week. Like a month, tops. Oh boy. Wifi fast enough for the whole family is simple, easy, awesome. In many cultures, young men would stay with their families until their 40s. Paul manafort he is desperately trying to distance himself from Michael Cohen. Well, today, trump hammering his new defense, crimes arent crimes, and just in case you didnt hear him the first time, he made sure to hit that point a few more times. He pled to two counts that arent a crime, which nobody understands. Those two counts arent even a crime. A lot of lawyers on television
and also lawyers that i have seen that theyre not even crimes. All right, lets be very clear about this. These are crimes. And Michael Cohen, in fact, admitted to them. I mean, generally, a judge does not let someone plead guilty to something that isnt a crime. And then trying to deny the crime isnt a crime. Did the president accidentally confess to committing one in that interview . They werent taken out of Campaign Finance, thats a big thing, a much bigger thing. Did they come out of the campaign . They didnt come out of the campaign. They came from me. My first question when i heard about was did they come out of the campaign because that could be a little dicey. And they didnt come out of the campaign. And thats big. But they werent thats not a its not even a campaign violation. That could be a little dicey. Joining me now is florida congressman ted deutsche of the Judiciary Committee. John flannery. Congressman, let me get your assessment. Did the president admit to committing a crime in that sound bite in that interview that you heard . Of course he did. Look, ayman, lets be clear, the president s understanding of Campaign Finance laws, he contributed tens of millions of dollars to his own campaign, and he reported it. You know what he didnt report on his Campaign Finance filings, the two sixfigure payments he made to silence women in an attempt to win the election. So he knows what hes supposed to do. He knows what he didnt do here. And he knows why he didnt do it. He can talk all he wants about how a crime isnt a crime, just like he ends his lawyer out, he sends rudy out to say the truth isnt the truth. The fact is, the president of the United States is an Unindicted Coconspirator based on what his lawyer said in court
just this week. John, your reading of that interview, did the president admit to committing a crime . Yes, he basically said i paid the money, and combined with prior statements by his counsel, and by himself, about how he paid the money, that doesnt protect him. In fact, what hes telling us is im concealing the money, i put into the campaign, you dont know about it, it was staged how he did it, and The Dividing Line is the congressman will probably tell you is whether it was willful or not. What could be more willful than concealing these payments and discussing how he wanted to silence somebody because it would affect the election . John, really quickly, does that tape become admissible as evidence, the president in his own words in that interview . Sure, absolut