Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20190303 : v

Trump was behind that hush money scheme to pay off stormy daniels. He told me at least a dozen times that he made the decision on the payments and he didnt tell you. He told me personally. He did. And he made the decision. Remember this, hes an attorney. Whatever decision he makes, hes supposed to rely on an attorney to make a decision. When you have an attorney, youre supposed to be able to rely on your attorney. Attorneyclient privilege . Well, but its also called reliance. He knows what hes doing. Reliance is an actual defense, although not to committing a crime. Now, it donald trump didnt tell cohen to make those hush money payments, if cohen just decided to pay stormy daniels, you know, all out of the blue, why did trump pay for it . Cohen has the receipts, of course, and he showed them to congress. Todays trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani tried to explain. We brought out ten months ago that he made the payments. Its our its our view of it that the president didnt know about it at the time. And then the president when he found out about it made arrangements for reimbursement. Nobody really buys that, and donald trump is well known to not spend a lot of money. He is considered by many of his former coworkers notoriously cheap. Hundreds of people have actually sued him for not paying back what he owed. That means things he authorized like dishwashers, painters, bartenders, and, yes, quite relevant tonight, lawyers. Former federal prosecutor John Flannery was special counsel counsel to three investigations, and former attorney Barbara Mcquade knows her way around these issues. John, i see you moving around in your chair, but youre ready, you can hear me right . Yes, i can hear you. Absolutely. Reliance. Do you buy it . No, i dont. Reliance, its very interesting on what these guys do. Reliance is based on the platonic idea of an attorney he didnt want an attorney, he wanted a fixer. He wanted a crook with a title. He needed a person to do what he needed done and he didnt care at all about the law. This guy has a whole line of these people, starting with mr. Cohen, the famous get the communists who associated him with mobsters and told him to fight and make demands and Everything Else. So theres no reason to believe for an instant that reliance and sean hannity, what a pair talking about this as if they know what an attorney is and thats what they want to have done. Thats not at all what this was about. Yeah, i thought, and i say this in all fairness, barbara, i thought this was one of those rebuttals and defenses that really showed they have no ground left. And there are decent defenses. Weve covered them on this show. There are good defenses, for example, to alleged collusion. But this seemed wild. So i have a short question for you followed by a longer one, barbara. Sure. To barbara. My short question is have you ever seen one former client interview another former client of a lawyer going to jail about what one client allegedly did . Short answer, no. No. I mean, again, its easy to forget in 2019. Sean hannity says he paid Michael Cohen to be his lawyer. That right there is a huge interest for that interview. Number two, of course, is the longer question to you. If Michael Cohen is right and the checks are right and theyre in evidence and this is ultimately going to be resolved in evidentiary proceedings, not in the two clients of Michael Cohen interviewing each other proceedings, what does it mean legally, barbara, that he brought those checks and there was a multiperson i dont want to use the word conspiracy, but multiperson project to trump money to help a campaign . Anybody who helped in a conspiracy to pay these moneys back knowing they wouldnt be disclosed on Campaign Finance forms could be guilty of a conspiracy. How you prove that, we dont have to rely solely on the word of Michael Cohen. There will be other evidence. They can talk to allen weisselberg, for example, who according to that recording participated in that conversation as well. The checks are some evidence. One thing you have to prove for Campaign Finance violations, its a little different from some other crimes, that it was committed willfully. Thats the highest level of mens rea. You have to show they not only knew what they were doing but that it was legal. A great way to show that is through some other evidence of concealing and they needed to cover it up in some way. Is donald trump on your point, is donald trump, barbara, lying about it and famously saying on air force one ask Michael Cohen and saying he didnt know about it. Does that go to the kind of evidence that youre talking about . Absolutely. Any time someone is lying or covering something up or acting in an unusual way, you wonder why they would do that. Consciousness of guilt. I know what i did was wrong and yes, i lied about it. That could be evidence to prove that willful intent. John, i want to take this out further because i do think what Michael Cohen testified to is significant for the details and evidence provided. Not for the opinions provided, of which there were some, but the evidence. As you know, prosecutors arent normal people, no offense to either of you. Prosecutors look at leads the way the rest of us look at ice cream or a nice big cinnamon roll. They get excited. I say that as introduction to a former prosecutor Chris Christie who we know is sympathetic to trump. Being the ice cream loving prosecutor that he is, i mean that with respect to investigative leads. Michael cohen uncorked so many leads, he just started walking through the leads. Take a look. Well, what he did yesterday was create a whole bunch of additional witnesses that the house is now empowered to try to bring before them. Folks like Allen Weissleberg at the Trump Organization, who he must have mentioned a dozen times. The president s children who he said was involved in the hush money payments and others. What he did was set all that up. John, do you agree, because a lot of trump defenders were saying, i want to talk about Michael Cohens credibility. Chris christie, a former u. S. Attorney ended up saying, gosh, look at those names. Those are the people you want to talk to. He saw nothing but rum raisin ice cream apparently. The defense for the republicans to call him a liar only goes so far in any kind of competition like this. He was lying for a liar. What were the lies about . Concealing what trump has done that is wrong and illegal. The list of names, those are not new, but what he did is he created a situation in now publicly we have our witness lis and were going to probably work through it. Some people say prosecutors are going to be upset about that. Well, in a normal case they would, but our system is not working. Our checks and balances arent working. People who should be standing up to the white house are not doing it. We are in a very special crisis in america, and the peoples house is going to do something about it. And the election that we won is going to enable us to have a good and fair and republican government like we havent had for the two years before the midterm elections. And so whatever they do to compromise mueller or whatever they try to do to shut down the Southern District of new york, they are going to have to deal with the information, and that makes the difference. Jefferson said, a nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never will be and the people are going to get the information and theyre going to react to it, i believe. Fascinating. John, thank you. Barbara, im going to see you later in the show. We have to fit something in right now. Breaking news on this friday night. House democrats are now moving forward on what is widely expected to be an epic shutdown to get legally Donald Trumps tax returns. We have nbc reporting from washington right now. The House Committee with the authority to get these taxes is moving forward on the steps for something weve discussed previously, a formal request to the irs, lawyers working explicitly on language. The chair of that committee, richard neal, working with other Top Democrats who are involved in order to strengthen the legal case. This is an advancement of a story weve been tracking. Jason johnson in washington for us from theroot. Com. What is the news tonight . Well, the news is that youve got ways and means, theyre going to formally ask for the president s tax returns. But, ari, this has to do also with what we saw earlier this week with the Oversight Committee. Now, the Oversight Committee could ask for the president s tax returns, but they would have to basically subpoena them and then you would have a big court battle. Ways and means can actually say, look, we want the president s tax returns. The catch is this. They cant just say how many ms you got in your bank account . We need your tax returns in order to pass a certain kind of law. Thats why the language is important. Can they ask how many commas, jason . They could ask how many commas hes got. I have a u. S. Senator standing by, but on this breaking news i turn to ask you the analysis. There has been so much talk of trumps tax returns for so long. What do you see the import of this coming against the backdrop of the cohen hearings . Well, theres two things. Number one, you notice ocasiocortez in the hearings she mentioned, you know, trumps golf course and inflating the taxes. That is in the Southern District of new york, so it already becomes a legal issue if theyre interested in the tax returns for that case. But also this is the kind of thing that could be used for the russia investigation. This could be used to pass future laws about what happened to people trying to deflate their assets. There are multiple ways this leads to not only investigations but possibly new laws. Its very interesting kwicbe the sequential way weve seen multiple democrats working on this. Thank you, jason. We keep moving forward, as i mentioned, because senator Richard Blumenthal is here with me in new york. Michael cohens testimony sparking all kinds of leads. Now want to hear from don jr. And ivanka trump. The Intel Community pushing to question the money man himself, Donald Trumps longtime cfo Allen Weissleberg. Then you have felix sater, of course, a key player in trump tower moscow and also his work with the fbi set to testify later this month. And then, of course, the multiple committees as reported tonight interested in Donald Trumps tax returns. Add to that Financial Services chair Maxine Waters with new questions that dig into use of potential abuse of funds by the trump foundation. I want to bring in connecticut senator Richard Blumenthal, a former prosecutor himself, who serves on the judiciary committee. Thanks for being on the beat tonight. Thank you very much. A lot to talk about, but lets begin with the tax returns. What can you tell us about that process of something democrats have long wanted to do but, in your view, are these concrete steps . These are very concrete steps and they are made necessary by the ways and means committee. Wanting to legislature in this area and protect the public against this kind of tax fraud revealed very dramatically in the cohen hearings. Inflating the values of properties to Insurance Companies or banks. Fraud. Thats against the law. Fraud. This is important. You view what cohen outlined there as and he said it under oath, if true, there was some documentation, that alone already meets the bar as fraud by donald trump . Thats fraud against those Insurance Companies. Its bank fraud. It could be fraud against the government. Also deflating the values for tax purposes, thats tax fraud. So thee financial crimes are very consequential. Thats a very good reason to want those tax returns and to have good legal reason for them, but also i think whats striking about the cohen testimony is the kind of pandoras box it opened. Not only in terms of witnesses, but also potential crimes. Very few people focused on those financial crimes, which are within the Southern District of new york, as you said before, a lot of prosecutorial ears opened wide. Yeah. And eyes, frankly, at some of what cohen said about those checks. You mentioned them earlier and you showed them. They were written and discussed in the oval office. In the oval office. After trump became president. So i think the timing is very important, as barbara and john mentioned, two great lawyers, that the potential for conspiracy there involves literally the seat of government, and i think all of the cohen testimony is very consequential in that way. Yeah, it seemed like a significant thing, even in a time where people are somewhat enured to how many breaking stories there are. I want to widen out and talk about something that was so obvious it may not need discussion, but youre here and sit on the judiciary committee. Take a listen to one of the most absurd lines of attack on Michael Cohen, which was republicans hammering him for being an alleged liar in the service and defense of a president who has been documented to lie more than any politician in american history. Take a look. Our first big hearing with as you and we all know a convicted liar, lying to congress. Youre a pathological liar. Look at the old adage that our moms taught us, liar, liar, pants on fire. Hes going to prison for lying to congress and hes the star witness to congress. You know, its just one more example, mr. Cohen, of you skirting the truth. Isnt it absurd for that to be the line in defense of donald trump . Well, the defense of donald trump is going to fall and crumble pretty quickly if thats the defense, but, remember about Michael Cohen. He has everything to lose and nothing to gain by lying now. Any lie he tells will be quickly a reason to deepen and aggravate the amount of time, already three years, hes going to spend behind bars. And Robert Mueller knows everything already that he is telling to congress. And remember also, and as a former prosecutor, perhaps not normal, as you said, as a person the things that get you interested, yeah. Im doubly not normal. But, remember, the arguments we make to juries. Using witnesses who have committed crimes. Theyre not choirboys, you cant have choirboys to prove these kinds of serious crimes. We tell juries dont leave your common sense at the door. The court here is the court of Public Opinion, not a jury in a courtroom, but the same kind of approach has to apply. The American People have to use their common sense. I think, senator, you make an important point. Thats why this is different. There is something in common, as you know, the jury and the court of Public Opinion are both made of up regular seasons who have what we call a bs detecter for what some of the folks in the building that you serve in do, for some of the grandiosity of partisan speeches, but this week wasnt about partisan speeches, it was about this guy who was riding with donald trump for ten years. So the American People can listen to him and figure out what seems credible or not when he has so much to lose if he lies now. And look at the character of the of the man presented. I want to get your response, of course, Jason Johnson i want to ask as well about the kushner security clearance. There is corroboration here. There are documents. There are other witnesses. Were going to hear from those other witnesses. And what is so striking about what donald trump did was he was willing to solicit and accept help from a foreign hostile adversary, the russian government, to help him get elected. And that kind of threat to our National Security, were seeing it again right. In security clearance given improperly to Jared Kushner because the president overruled his own intelligence and security advisers and professionals, i think speaks fundamentally to why you saw nobody defending donald trump as a person. All of it was attacking cohen. Right. Which i think is telling. Senator Richard Blumenthal, as you say, former prosecutor and u. S. Senator. Thank you for being on set of the beat. Jason johnson has been following the story for us. The last one is, jason, the New York Times has basically documented the allegation that donald trump and his family members lied about Nuclear Weapon difficultic overruling of the Intelligence Community to rush out a clearance for Jared Kushner what do you believe matters about that story, as Everything Else is going on. We basically risk our National Security being for sale across the world. At a very basic level, ari, whether youre in the fbi or cia, you cant get security clearance if you have a certain debt to income ratio. Under most circumstances, Jared Kushner would never be allowed to get access to this kind of information because he owes so much money and hes got so much he might want to leverage. The fact that the president said, hey, you can still get into the club, sneak over the back and went over our Rudy Giuliani<\/a> tried to explain. We brought out ten months ago that he made the payments. Its our its our view of it that the president didnt know about it at the time. And then the president when he found out about it made arrangements for reimbursement. Nobody really buys that, and donald trump is well known to not spend a lot of money. He is considered by many of his former coworkers notoriously cheap. Hundreds of people have actually sued him for not paying back what he owed. That means things he authorized like dishwashers, painters, bartenders, and, yes, quite relevant tonight, lawyers. Former federal prosecutor John Flannery<\/a> was special counsel counsel to three investigations, and former attorney Barbara Mcquade<\/a> knows her way around these issues. John, i see you moving around in your chair, but youre ready, you can hear me right . Yes, i can hear you. Absolutely. Reliance. Do you buy it . No, i dont. Reliance, its very interesting on what these guys do. Reliance is based on the platonic idea of an attorney he didnt want an attorney, he wanted a fixer. He wanted a crook with a title. He needed a person to do what he needed done and he didnt care at all about the law. This guy has a whole line of these people, starting with mr. Cohen, the famous get the communists who associated him with mobsters and told him to fight and make demands and Everything Else<\/a>. So theres no reason to believe for an instant that reliance and sean hannity, what a pair talking about this as if they know what an attorney is and thats what they want to have done. Thats not at all what this was about. Yeah, i thought, and i say this in all fairness, barbara, i thought this was one of those rebuttals and defenses that really showed they have no ground left. And there are decent defenses. Weve covered them on this show. There are good defenses, for example, to alleged collusion. But this seemed wild. So i have a short question for you followed by a longer one, barbara. Sure. To barbara. My short question is have you ever seen one former client interview another former client of a lawyer going to jail about what one client allegedly did . Short answer, no. No. I mean, again, its easy to forget in 2019. Sean hannity says he paid Michael Cohen<\/a> to be his lawyer. That right there is a huge interest for that interview. Number two, of course, is the longer question to you. If Michael Cohen<\/a> is right and the checks are right and theyre in evidence and this is ultimately going to be resolved in evidentiary proceedings, not in the two clients of Michael Cohen<\/a> interviewing each other proceedings, what does it mean legally, barbara, that he brought those checks and there was a multiperson i dont want to use the word conspiracy, but multiperson project to trump money to help a campaign . Anybody who helped in a conspiracy to pay these moneys back knowing they wouldnt be disclosed on Campaign Finance<\/a> forms could be guilty of a conspiracy. How you prove that, we dont have to rely solely on the word of Michael Cohen<\/a>. There will be other evidence. They can talk to allen weisselberg, for example, who according to that recording participated in that conversation as well. The checks are some evidence. One thing you have to prove for Campaign Finance<\/a> violations, its a little different from some other crimes, that it was committed willfully. Thats the highest level of mens rea. You have to show they not only knew what they were doing but that it was legal. A great way to show that is through some other evidence of concealing and they needed to cover it up in some way. Is donald trump on your point, is donald trump, barbara, lying about it and famously saying on air force one ask Michael Cohen<\/a> and saying he didnt know about it. Does that go to the kind of evidence that youre talking about . Absolutely. Any time someone is lying or covering something up or acting in an unusual way, you wonder why they would do that. Consciousness of guilt. I know what i did was wrong and yes, i lied about it. That could be evidence to prove that willful intent. John, i want to take this out further because i do think what Michael Cohen<\/a> testified to is significant for the details and evidence provided. Not for the opinions provided, of which there were some, but the evidence. As you know, prosecutors arent normal people, no offense to either of you. Prosecutors look at leads the way the rest of us look at ice cream or a nice big cinnamon roll. They get excited. I say that as introduction to a former prosecutor Chris Christie<\/a> who we know is sympathetic to trump. Being the ice cream loving prosecutor that he is, i mean that with respect to investigative leads. Michael cohen uncorked so many leads, he just started walking through the leads. Take a look. Well, what he did yesterday was create a whole bunch of additional witnesses that the house is now empowered to try to bring before them. Folks like Allen Weissleberg<\/a> at the Trump Organization<\/a>, who he must have mentioned a dozen times. The president s children who he said was involved in the hush money payments and others. What he did was set all that up. John, do you agree, because a lot of trump defenders were saying, i want to talk about Michael Cohen<\/a>s credibility. Chris christie, a former u. S. Attorney ended up saying, gosh, look at those names. Those are the people you want to talk to. He saw nothing but rum raisin ice cream apparently. The defense for the republicans to call him a liar only goes so far in any kind of competition like this. He was lying for a liar. What were the lies about . Concealing what trump has done that is wrong and illegal. The list of names, those are not new, but what he did is he created a situation in now publicly we have our witness lis and were going to probably work through it. Some people say prosecutors are going to be upset about that. Well, in a normal case they would, but our system is not working. Our checks and balances arent working. People who should be standing up to the white house are not doing it. We are in a very special crisis in america, and the peoples house is going to do something about it. And the election that we won is going to enable us to have a good and fair and republican government like we havent had for the two years before the midterm elections. And so whatever they do to compromise mueller or whatever they try to do to shut down the Southern District<\/a> of new york, they are going to have to deal with the information, and that makes the difference. Jefferson said, a nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never will be and the people are going to get the information and theyre going to react to it, i believe. Fascinating. John, thank you. Barbara, im going to see you later in the show. We have to fit something in right now. Breaking news on this friday night. House democrats are now moving forward on what is widely expected to be an epic shutdown to get legally Donald Trumps<\/a> tax returns. We have nbc reporting from washington right now. The House Committee<\/a> with the authority to get these taxes is moving forward on the steps for something weve discussed previously, a formal request to the irs, lawyers working explicitly on language. The chair of that committee, richard neal, working with other Top Democrats<\/a> who are involved in order to strengthen the legal case. This is an advancement of a story weve been tracking. Jason johnson in washington for us from theroot. Com. What is the news tonight . Well, the news is that youve got ways and means, theyre going to formally ask for the president s tax returns. But, ari, this has to do also with what we saw earlier this week with the Oversight Committee<\/a>. Now, the Oversight Committee<\/a> could ask for the president s tax returns, but they would have to basically subpoena them and then you would have a big court battle. Ways and means can actually say, look, we want the president s tax returns. The catch is this. They cant just say how many ms you got in your bank account . We need your tax returns in order to pass a certain kind of law. Thats why the language is important. Can they ask how many commas, jason . They could ask how many commas hes got. I have a u. S. Senator standing by, but on this breaking news i turn to ask you the analysis. There has been so much talk of trumps tax returns for so long. What do you see the import of this coming against the backdrop of the cohen hearings . Well, theres two things. Number one, you notice ocasiocortez in the hearings she mentioned, you know, trumps golf course and inflating the taxes. That is in the Southern District<\/a> of new york, so it already becomes a legal issue if theyre interested in the tax returns for that case. But also this is the kind of thing that could be used for the russia investigation. This could be used to pass future laws about what happened to people trying to deflate their assets. There are multiple ways this leads to not only investigations but possibly new laws. Its very interesting kwicbe the sequential way weve seen multiple democrats working on this. Thank you, jason. We keep moving forward, as i mentioned, because senator Richard Blumenthal<\/a> is here with me in new york. Michael cohens testimony sparking all kinds of leads. Now want to hear from don jr. And ivanka trump. The Intel Community<\/a> pushing to question the money man himself, Donald Trumps<\/a> longtime cfo Allen Weissleberg<\/a>. Then you have felix sater, of course, a key player in trump tower moscow and also his work with the fbi set to testify later this month. And then, of course, the multiple committees as reported tonight interested in Donald Trumps<\/a> tax returns. Add to that Financial Services<\/a> chair Maxine Waters<\/a> with new questions that dig into use of potential abuse of funds by the trump foundation. I want to bring in connecticut senator Richard Blumenthal<\/a>, a former prosecutor himself, who serves on the judiciary committee. Thanks for being on the beat tonight. Thank you very much. A lot to talk about, but lets begin with the tax returns. What can you tell us about that process of something democrats have long wanted to do but, in your view, are these concrete steps . These are very concrete steps and they are made necessary by the ways and means committee. Wanting to legislature in this area and protect the public against this kind of tax fraud revealed very dramatically in the cohen hearings. Inflating the values of properties to Insurance Companies<\/a> or banks. Fraud. Thats against the law. Fraud. This is important. You view what cohen outlined there as and he said it under oath, if true, there was some documentation, that alone already meets the bar as fraud by donald trump . Thats fraud against those Insurance Companies<\/a>. Its bank fraud. It could be fraud against the government. Also deflating the values for tax purposes, thats tax fraud. So thee financial crimes are very consequential. Thats a very good reason to want those tax returns and to have good legal reason for them, but also i think whats striking about the cohen testimony is the kind of pandoras box it opened. Not only in terms of witnesses, but also potential crimes. Very few people focused on those financial crimes, which are within the Southern District<\/a> of new york, as you said before, a lot of prosecutorial ears opened wide. Yeah. And eyes, frankly, at some of what cohen said about those checks. You mentioned them earlier and you showed them. They were written and discussed in the oval office. In the oval office. After trump became president. So i think the timing is very important, as barbara and john mentioned, two great lawyers, that the potential for conspiracy there involves literally the seat of government, and i think all of the cohen testimony is very consequential in that way. Yeah, it seemed like a significant thing, even in a time where people are somewhat enured to how many breaking stories there are. I want to widen out and talk about something that was so obvious it may not need discussion, but youre here and sit on the judiciary committee. Take a listen to one of the most absurd lines of attack on Michael Cohen<\/a>, which was republicans hammering him for being an alleged liar in the service and defense of a president who has been documented to lie more than any politician in american history. Take a look. Our first big hearing with as you and we all know a convicted liar, lying to congress. Youre a pathological liar. Look at the old adage that our moms taught us, liar, liar, pants on fire. Hes going to prison for lying to congress and hes the star witness to congress. You know, its just one more example, mr. Cohen, of you skirting the truth. Isnt it absurd for that to be the line in defense of donald trump . Well, the defense of donald trump is going to fall and crumble pretty quickly if thats the defense, but, remember about Michael Cohen<\/a>. He has everything to lose and nothing to gain by lying now. Any lie he tells will be quickly a reason to deepen and aggravate the amount of time, already three years, hes going to spend behind bars. And Robert Mueller<\/a> knows everything already that he is telling to congress. And remember also, and as a former prosecutor, perhaps not normal, as you said, as a person the things that get you interested, yeah. Im doubly not normal. But, remember, the arguments we make to juries. Using witnesses who have committed crimes. Theyre not choirboys, you cant have choirboys to prove these kinds of serious crimes. We tell juries dont leave your common sense at the door. The court here is the court of Public Opinion<\/a>, not a jury in a courtroom, but the same kind of approach has to apply. The American People<\/a> have to use their common sense. I think, senator, you make an important point. Thats why this is different. There is something in common, as you know, the jury and the court of Public Opinion<\/a> are both made of up regular seasons who have what we call a bs detecter for what some of the folks in the building that you serve in do, for some of the grandiosity of partisan speeches, but this week wasnt about partisan speeches, it was about this guy who was riding with donald trump for ten years. So the American People<\/a> can listen to him and figure out what seems credible or not when he has so much to lose if he lies now. And look at the character of the of the man presented. I want to get your response, of course, Jason Johnson<\/a> i want to ask as well about the kushner security clearance. There is corroboration here. There are documents. There are other witnesses. Were going to hear from those other witnesses. And what is so striking about what donald trump did was he was willing to solicit and accept help from a foreign hostile adversary, the russian government, to help him get elected. And that kind of threat to our National Security<\/a>, were seeing it again right. In security clearance given improperly to Jared Kushner<\/a> because the president overruled his own intelligence and security advisers and professionals, i think speaks fundamentally to why you saw nobody defending donald trump as a person. All of it was attacking cohen. Right. Which i think is telling. Senator Richard Blumenthal<\/a>, as you say, former prosecutor and u. S. Senator. Thank you for being on set of the beat. Jason johnson has been following the story for us. The last one is, jason, the New York Times<\/a> has basically documented the allegation that donald trump and his family members lied about Nuclear Weapon<\/a> difficultic overruling of the Intelligence Community<\/a> to rush out a clearance for Jared Kushner<\/a> what do you believe matters about that story, as Everything Else<\/a> is going on. We basically risk our National Security<\/a> being for sale across the world. At a very basic level, ari, whether youre in the fbi or cia, you cant get security clearance if you have a certain debt to income ratio. Under most circumstances, Jared Kushner<\/a> would never be allowed to get access to this kind of information because he owes so much money and hes got so much he might want to leverage. The fact that the president said, hey, you can still get into the club, sneak over the back and went over our National Security<\/a>, so much so that kelly felt like he needed to write a memo to say i wasnt in favor of this, indicates how dangerous our National Security<\/a> has been compromised by Jared Kushner<\/a>. Jason, johnson. Thank you. Coming up, new questions about the trump and moscow project. A special fallback friday with a reporter, professor, and sure, throw in a rapper. Russia probe edition of the fall back friday. Ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. Msnbc. With giant Solutions Like<\/a> turbotax, quickbooks and mint that give everyone the power to prosper. Intuit. Proud makers of turbotax, quickbooks and mint. I but i can tell you i Liberty Mutual<\/a> customized my Car Insurance<\/a> so i only pay for what i need. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Did you know, the exact same hotel room can have many different prices . It all depends on where you look. Wait, you paid how much . Oh, dear well, this is awkward. Thats why tripadvisor checks over 200 booking sites Cash Register<\/a> ringing to find you a great price, and the hotel you want, so you dont end up overpaying for your room. No offense. Find the right hotel room for the right price. Hoo read reviews, check hotel prices, book things to do. Tripadvisor. They Work Together<\/a> doing important stuff. The hitch . Like you, your cells get hungry. Feed them. With centrum\u00ae micronutrients. Restoring your awesome. Daily. Feed your cells with centrum\u00ae micronutrients today. It would do more than haul. If i built a van, it would carry my entire business. Id make it available in dozens, make that thousands of configurations. It would keep an eye on my fleet. [ beeping ] and an eye out for danger. With active brake assist. If i built a van, id make it available in diesel and gas. And id build it right here, in south carolina. Introducing the all new sprinter starting at 33,790. Built in the usa. Mercedesbenz. Vans. Born to run. President trumps Jared Kushner<\/a> problem snowballing right now. Top democrats drilling into these reports that trump overruled his own intelligence officials and his white House Counsel<\/a> who is supposed to look out for him to order that his soninlaw get topsecret security clearance despite those objections. Elijah cummings now demanding information about what then chief of staff john kelly did, including an internal memo that was supposed to document this order from the president. Kelly writing about this and basically saying they were troubled by the order. There are rumors which trump, of course, denied that he had personally overruled those specialists. Did you tell general kelly or anyone else in the white house to overrule Security Officials<\/a> that no, i dont think i have the authority to do that. Im not sure i do. You do. But i wouldnt do it. Okay. You never jareds a good i was never involved with his security. Joined by former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi frank figliuzzi. Is this a nepotism scandal or a National Security<\/a> one . Well, its both because now we once again have the president putting personal interest over National Security<\/a> interests. This is a president who appears to hold in complete disdain and contempt the intelligence agencies. Doesnt like to listen to what they have to say, but yet will use clearances as a weapon and a tool. Take clearance away from people like john brennan, who he doesnt like, but force people, order people to give a clearance to his own soninlaw, after intelligence agencies have said he poses a risk. This needs to be deeply explored by congress. We need to not only see the memos that kelly wrote, chief of staff kelly, white House Counsel<\/a> mcgahn, who felt compelled to go in writing. Thats a clue that something in those background reports was very disturbing to them. Its a clue that Don Mcgahn Don Mcgahn<\/a> always seems to be writing up everything to prove he was on the right side of wrong things that still happened if these accounts are true and highly documented, four sources in the times. You mentioned brennan. Here is the white house doing exactly what you were criticizing. Take a look. Ive decided to revoke the security clearance of john brennan, former director of the Central Intelligence<\/a> agency. I have a unique constitutional responsibility to protect the nations classified information. Including by controlling access to it. Go ahead. So, look, the system is broken. Lets just step back a moment. What congress truly needs to look at is the entire Background Investigation<\/a> and clearance approval process. This notion that the fbi works for a client other than the American People<\/a>, right, that the agency requesting the clearance or the white house requesting the clearance somehow is the final arbiter of the decision is a silly concept. If you want to do that, you can hire a private i to do whatever you want and say whatever you want. Congress needs to look at the process. They also need to subpoena the entire Background Investigation<\/a>, not just the moemps of mcgahn and kelly objecting. Finally on the substance, what does it mean for those of us who arent steeped in this, when the intelligence officials didnt want to give this clearance to kushner. Youd think if it were a close call but they could go along to get along that they might do so. What does it mean that they were this concerned about someone who is clearly close to the president. Ari, youve got a great point. If its on the fence, the neighbors say he doesnt mow the lawn the right way, you know, this is going to skate. If they came in reportedly and said this guy shouldnt get a clearance, weve got a big problem. So there are foreign entanglements, compromise, vulnerability. Maybe theyve got classified intercepts of him having inappropriate conversations with Intelligence Services<\/a> or government representatives, we simply dont know. Right. All we know is the reporting that the president overruled their recommendations. Its significant. It relates to what the career nonpartisan people think about security and it gets you way out of this binary thing about mueller, was it a felony or not . Nobody is saying Jared Kushner<\/a> committed a felony here. Not everything is about crime. What they are saying is our security folks like the work you used oh do said this is bad for National Security<\/a>, the president came in, overruled them on nepotistic grounds and kept lying about it. Some stories are simple. This is one of them. Frank, thank you, as always, for your expertise. Thank you. Up ahead, new reporting on trump tower moscow, Michael Cohen<\/a> and, yes, other lies. A former trump exec who worked with Allen Weissleberg<\/a> and what he knows and what he might say when were back in just 30 seconds. Back in just 30 seconds. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance<\/a> so you only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Its friday night and the other top story could be as big as any of those weve discussed. Michael cohen turning up the heat and naming names of executives at the Trump Organization<\/a>. Allen weissleberg over 20 times in the testimony. Allen weissleberg, the chief Financial Officer<\/a> of the Trump Organization<\/a>. He directed us to go back to mr. Weisslebergs office. The bottom signature i believe is Allen Weissleberg<\/a>s. Allen weissleberg made the decision. Always Allen Weissleberg<\/a> on the check. Mr. Weissleberg for sure. Allen weissleberg. Allen weissleberg. Allen weissleberg. Allen weissleberg. There you have it. Weissleberg is the chief Financial Officer<\/a> at trump org. He was even featured as one time a judge on the apprentice. Donald trump has written that he did whatever was necessary to protect the bottom line. Trumps former Campaign Manager<\/a> also in the know says weissleberg tracks every dime that leaves the building. And the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> plans to call weissleberg to testify. We already know where this is headed. The head of the Oversight Committee<\/a> says theyll also pursue additional trump org officials, including trumps longtime assistant rhona graff and his children involved in the business, and onetime bodyguard and now coo matthew calamari who has gone viral after cohens testimony with the resurfacing of a we have nothing against awkwardness but, yes, awkward 2004 appearance on the apprentice. Another man who has done a great job for me, matthew calamari. Donald, you know i dont care for jen very much, got to be honest with you. Because wow because whoa, im not doing too good. People think this stuff is easy, right, regis . Its not so easy. Not so easy. Barbara ress is a former trump executive. Mean news analyst Howard Fineman<\/a> has been tracking these stories for some time. Good evening to both of you. Hi there. Barbara, i think you know the saying, its getting hot in here. Yes, it is. Its getting hot for people who have worked for trump org. Maybe not you. No, no, im cool. Youre good. Youre cool. Mr. Calamari, you hired him. The big squid, we used to call him. Was that an affectionate turn . It was then. I dont like to give people a hard time. He wasnt used to talking on tv. The only thing that can be gleaned is hes the coo and thats consistent with some soft appointments that mr. Trump has been making. Meaning . Putting people in positions that theyre not necessarily qualified for. Youre saying he was in over his depth. Perhaps. Was he a squid in rougher waters than he could navigate . I dont know the that they were rougher waters, they may have been more intellectual waters than he could navigate. He was donalds bodyguard. He was like a squid in a water tank at a library and he was not accustomed to that environment. That could be, yes. Okay. Im questioning what he actually did. I mean, he had a title, but i dont know what he actually did. Isnt that, wait you say mr. Calamari had a title but you didnt know what he did and worked at trump org, isnt that a bad sign. When he worked for me, i knew what he did. As coo, i dont know what he would be doing. How many people around donald trump hanging around with titles fixing problems but didnt really have more jobs . More and more as time went on. Initially when i started, there were eight or ten people in the organization and they all knew what they were doing and belonged in their jobs. Weissleberg, does he now how trump used his money . Yes, weissleberg, i think, really did a lot of trumps personal accounting. And he was the accountant for the company. I mean, when i met him, he had just come there. It was like 87. He worked in brooklyn. When i worked there earlier than that, brooklyn did all our accounting for us, paying bills, writing checks. Thats what he did. He paid bills, he wrote invoices, he collected money. Will he spill the beans or do a lot of i dont remember . Its hard to do i dont remember. Ive been deposed many times. After awhile you got a smart liar on the other side. Thats not going to ring too true. I dont think allen would purger himself. Ive been surprised the things ive seen the people i knew have done, but i would be surprised if he would purger himself. Do you think that there are other hush money payments that he may know about . Yes. Just instinctively lots. More than five . Probably. More than ten . I cant say. But that strikes you as an instinct. Trump would do that kind of thing and allen would be the guy that would draw out the check. Probably trump would sign it himself. Let me read to you from depositions, here is a 2011 one we had in a trump case with weissleberg and questioned he was described as mr. Trumps eyes and ears for his investments, and he answered, am i his eyes and ears from an economic standpoint . Yeah. So what do you think is the stuff that is most damaging that he would know . Not stuff having to do with stocks. I think more dealing with as mr. Cohen intimated, insurance claims and things like that. And payoffs. Hush money, as they call it. Payoffs. Interesting. So, look, you know both those individuals we just discussed. Howard, i want to bring you in and play some of the other namechecking Michael Cohen<\/a> did. At the end of the day, whether he made mistakes or not, he knows these people, hes a lawyer, he knows exactly what hes doing. Take a look at the list of witnesses he made. Donald trump jr. And ivanka trump. It would either be eric trump rho rhona graff is mr. Trumps executive assistant. David pecker, howard, barry lavine of ami as well. Allen weissleberg. Alan garten of the Trump Organization<\/a> as well. Who else knows that trump did this . Allen weissleberg, Matthew Lieberman<\/a> and calamari. Howard, how does the house deal with that . Well, ari, in the campaign i spent some time on the 26th floor of trump tower in Donald Trumps<\/a> office talking to donald and other people. And to reminded me as nothing so much as a somewhat more upscale backroom at the badda bing. It was donald trump sitting behind the desk and various people Milling Around<\/a>. Nobody sitting down because donald trump had too many trophies and paintings and other things on all the chairs and seats. There was nowhere to sit down. But everybody Milling Around<\/a> the office and only one person who mattered and was making everybody else argue with each other. That was donald trump. The larger point is here, and the big picture point is that the American People<\/a> and the investigators are going to have to decide whether donald trump, his family and his inner circle, all of whom were described there by Michael Cohen<\/a>, together constitute an ongoing criminal conspiracy that might have made itself either vulnerable or willing to conspire with the russians, but even if it didnt do that, is this ongoing tax evading, hush money paying, corner cutting, ongoing criminal conspiracy thats interested in one thing, which is money for the family. I dont know what Jared Kushner<\/a> may have done or said that got the cias interest. It could be Foreign Policy<\/a> or it could be money. Yeah. That might have left him open to blackmail. Thats the big question here right. And thats what connects all the different investigations in new york and washington. Is this basically a giant rico case . Thats what were dealing with. Lightning round of all the names named. As a reporter and former trump org expect. Well, obviously, Allen Weissleberg<\/a>. I go back to the watergate movies. When i came into the movie, its follow the money. Barbara . Its still follow the money because thats the ultimate motivation of this group of people. Barbara . Weissleberg. I love the description of donalds office. It was 100 spoton. Thank you. There you have an eyewitness and a former trump org exec. Its fascinating to see this play out on a national basis, but disturbing for many of the reasons you stated. Thanks to both of you. Thank you. Up ahead, there are some other bizarre moments from the cohen hearing. We have nbcs ken dilanian to get into it. And inside trumps moscow project. Remember that buzzfeed scoop . Were going to get into all of that and why investigators now want to hear from don jr. Distra. [ping] at subaru, were taking on distracted driving with sensors that alert you when your eyes are off the road. The allnew subaru forester. The safest forester ever. One plus one equals too little too late a sockabamboom whos in the room . Love is dangerous but driving safe means you pay less switch and save yes, maam excuse me, miss. Does this heart belong to you . Would you like it anyway . [ scatting ] ed gets copays as lowlily go to as zero dollars on Medicare Part<\/a> d prescriptions. Ed gets labels clear as day. And, lily. Lily gets anything she wants. Ed knows he could just have us deliver his prescriptions. But whats the fun in that . Switch to cvs pharmacy. Dearest britain. We love you. Maybe its your big hearts. Your sense of style. Welcome to ba100. ba100, youre clear for takeoff . How you follow your own path. Youve led revolutions. Of all kinds. Yet you wont shout about it. Its just not in your nature. Instead, youll quietly make history. Cake. Beds. Poetry. Trouble. Love hope and rather a lot of tea. The best of britain, from the moment you step on board. Michael cohens bombshell testimony revealed a lot more about trump tower moscow. Donald trump famously repeatedly denied and lied about it throughout his time on the campaign trail. Cohen now saying under oath that everything the president was claiming is false. Mr. Trump knew of and directed the trump moscow negotiations throughout the campaign and lied about it. And so i lied about it, too. Now, this is important for several reasons, including that it sheds new light on that famously disputed buzzfeed report, remember, which said trump directed cohen to lie to congress and muellers office famously shot it down. One of the only times theyve commented. Thinking what were learning this week. Cohen testifying under oath while trump tint tell him directly to lie, trump made it clear to him he wanted him to lie. People are saying maybe that means the buzzfeed report wasnt 100 wrong after all. In fact the Washington Post<\/a> says wednesday was a, quote, vindicating day for buzzfeed, saying the story was the story was in essence correct. Now, the buzzfeed reports garnered plenty of criticism and many saying it was echoed too fast, including right here on television news. Now, muellers team, as i mentioned, they said, look, in its essence, the part about there being corroboration that trump told cohen to lie, they said on the record that wasnt the case. Now, cohens testimony does look to shed light on that report. And i can tell you what buzzfeeds saying about this. This is brandnew. Quote, Michael Cohen<\/a>s public testimony reaffirms what he claimed in private to investigators, as we reported. President trump met with cohen before his false testimony. That testimony was edited by administration lawyers. Cohen understood the president was directing him to lie to congress. Im joined by federal prosecutor Barbara Mcquade<\/a>. Everyone remembers i think who follows this story mueller shooting that town. What do you make of this . I think this gives us a way to sort of reconcile all the different versions of this as kind of telling the same story. You know, Robert Mueller<\/a> and prosecutors in general are scrupulously careful not to overplay their hand, so they are correct, theyre all correct that there was no direct statement by President Trump<\/a> directing Michael Cohen<\/a> to lie, and i think it was that idea that Robert Mueller<\/a> wanted to get out of the headlines thats interesting. Because that was overstating the facts. Youre saying the overstating part was that they didnt like the idea that there would be an expectation out there that it was a harder a harder directs than it was . I think thats right. If you look at what they said, the statement was not accurate. They did not say that President Trump<\/a> did not in some way imply or directly indicate and instruct cohen to make this statement. What he testified was the edits because of the lawyers and the statement President Trump<\/a> made, there is no business in russia, michael and in the very next breath asking about the status of the negotiations with russia. In the same way he says the crowd at my inauguration was the biggest ever, he sends a message to everybody, get on board. Thats the message. So it can be very difficult to prove when someone is so careful and maintains that plausible deniability by talking in code. Its something that drug dealers and mobsters do with each other. If you can get enough people in that sphere to say thats how he communicated and we all understood what it meant, then i think you can show his intent. What percent right do you think the buzzfeed story was now . I dont want to attribute a certain percentage to it, but i think the gist of it was accurate, even if the words were not. Very interesting point. Barbara mcquade, thank you, as always. Thanks, ari. New speculation about mueller. There is so much going town this week. Tonight were Holding Nothing<\/a> back. I have a fallback friday, a russia probe edition with ken dilanian and more. Next. Dilanian and more. Next if i built a van, it would carry my entire business. Id make it available in dozens, make that thousands of configurations. It would keep an eye on my fleet. [ beeping ] and an eye out for danger. With active brake assist. If i built a van, id make it available in diesel and gas. And id build it right here, in south carolina. Introducing the all new sprinter starting at 33,790. Built in the usa. Mercedesbenz. Vans. Born to run. That were playing four on four with a barbershop quartet . [quartet singing] bum bum bum bum. Pass the ball. Pass the rock. Were open just pass the ball no, i cant believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my Car Insurance<\/a> with geico. Yea. [quartet singing] shoot the j shoot, shoot, shoot the jaaaaaay. 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Michael cohens testimony upended everything this week. A whopping 16 million americans watched him live on tv during the workday. Millions more no coverage that night. Hes upended our show, too, because this is our first ever russia probe edition of fallback friday. And for this fall back, im joined by nbc intelligence reporter ken dilanian, professor dorian wairn, making his first appearance the beat, a cleveland musician who started recording music at the age of 12 with a freestyle over the popular sway in the morning show that has been highlighted 12 million times my man sway gonna put me to the test one beat lay you can put me to the test teachers think im gorgeous so im passing all my courses my mama proud of me running for my College Degree<\/a> rather than running from the police im trying to blow up so when i walk the stage i pray its for a grammy before a diploma no wonder it went viral. Not bad. I just say sway today. Thats crazy. Everything comes full circle. Ken dilanian, i got to ask you, have you ever heard bars like that . No, i dont think so. That was pretty good. Ezra, youve impressed nbc intelligence reporter ken dilanian, he is the last word on freestyle. Endall. Ken, this is investigative fallback friday because its been that kind of week. When you look at this week, whats on your mind . Look, im glad you asked, ari, because conspiracy theorists on both sides of the trump russia story need to fall back. This is a really complicated story, right. There are a lot of ins and outs to the facts. Reasonable people can disagree on the implications of the evidence weve seen so far. Those on the right who insist the whole mueller russia investigation is a deep state plot a coup against the company. And the people on the left who insist that donald trump is the manchurian candidate, that hes a puppet of putin, because there is no evidence to support either side of that. I think you put it well. Some people might not like what youre saying, but youre talking about letting the facts and the evidence lead us, not what we hope they might say. Thats right. Which i think is solid. Dorian, what about you. Well, ari, the Michael Cohen<\/a> testimony was riveting, one of the things i learned is that donald trump doesnt use text or email. I want the president to fall back. Because heres the thing. You think thats suspicious right there . Its suspicious. If you use twitter right, he uses some technology but not i think we have it. Lets take a listen. You claim, and i quote, mr. Trump directed me to use my own personal funds from a home equity line of credit to avoid any money being tracked back to him that could negatively impact his campaign. Do you have any proof of this direction . Just the payment, sir. So no email . Mr. Trump doesnt have email. No text message . Mr. Trump doesnt text message. I mean, okay, i dont want to read emails from donald trump because if you can imagine his stream of conscious us in. Come on. He calls an ipad the flat one. Come on, people use paypal and venmo. Why didnt he venmo the payments . Who is writing checks every month. Youre saying its an old School Campaign<\/a> conspiracy but with twitter lying about it. Its confusing. I left i left that day of testimony confused. I just want the president to fall back and maybe send an email or two. I wonder what you thought of a moment going around on the internet a lot. On the one hand, what was important about the day what was we learned about donald trump. Thats the point of it, why so many people tuned in. Regular beef you see every day in the congress. But take a look at a moment that has gotten a lot of attention after mark meadows brought out a woman many thought was a total prop and then there was this exchange. Take a look. The fact that someone would actually use a prop, a black woman in this chamber, in this committee, is alone racist in itself. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing more personal to me than my relationship, my nieces and nephews are people of color. Of all the people on this committee, ive said it and got in trouble for it, that youre one of my best friends. I know that shocks a lot of people. And likewise, mr. Chairman. But, again, i said someone and, again, it was not referring to you at all as a racist. If people dont follow politics like some of us do day in and day out, how do you think that plays out . What do you see there . Homey, whats his name again . Congressman meadows. Congressman meadows. You can call him homey. Congressman meadows, maybe should just fall back from some of the inconsider aate actions. Me being an artist, its hard for me to limit myself at times. Youre talking about emotion . Yeah, as far as like, you know, stuff that i will put input on or not. It just sounded to me like the common, like, im not racist, i have a black friend. Right. You know now, is that true . If someone says that i have an idea. This is the black friend defense. How about this . Hey, ari, youre my friend and i think youre white so lets have the white friend defense. So black people and people of color can never be racist ever because we have a white friend. Thank you, friend. Ken, i would shake your hand but youre in washington, d. C. Next time i see you ill shake your hand. How was this fall back for you, ken . It was lifechanging. Thanks for having me. We thank everyone for a special fallback friday. So many friends. And next week i have a special fall back for you, fashion icon Isaac Mizrahi<\/a> and our friend craig melvin of the today show are here. Isaac does have this new memoir. Tonight, you might want to know hes kicking off his new tour i me. Find out more information on helloisaac. Com. Well be back with one more thing. Well be back with one mo thing. When heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. It neutralizes stomach acid at the source. Tum tum tum tum smoothies. Also available tums sugarfree. Woman this is your wakeup call. If you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. Ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. Humira can help stop the clock. Prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. Vo humira can lower your ability to fight infections. Serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Woman help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. Talk to your rheumatologist. Right here. Right now. Did you know, the exact same hotel room can have many different prices . It all depends on where you look. Wait, you paid how much . Oh, dear well, this is awkward. Thats why tripadvisor checks over 200 booking sites Cash Register<\/a> ringing to find you a great price, and the hotel you want, so you dont end up overpaying for your room. No offense. Find the right hotel room for the right price. Hoo read reviews, check hotel prices, book things to do. Tripadvisor. Limu emu hmm. Exactly. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance<\/a>, so you only pay for what you need. Nice. But, uh. Whats up with your. Partner . Oh. Well, we just spend all day telling everyone how we customize Car Insurance<\/a>, because no two people are alike, so. Limu gets a little confused when he sees another bird that looks exactly like him. [ loud crash ] yeah. Hell figure it out. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty what a week. Before we go, we have a new interview i want to tell you about. I sat down with the hosts of the breakfast club. Theyve been on this show. We went deeper in a long form talking about barack obama, his relation to hiphop and also their rebuttal to fox news attacks on their interview with kamala harris. You can hear all of it on our new coder podcast which is going to go up this weekend on apple, wherever you get your podcasts. The whole interview is on youtube. Type in the beat interview with ari what evidence doesnt lie . It actually tells a story. Tonight, youre there at the crime scene. You can almost recreate the crime. Right there on the wall, a mystery scrawled in blood. Three cryptic letters. What would you make of this . Is that a word . Is that a person . The clues pointed in so many Different Directions<\/a> it was a total mystery. The murder of a former model and flight attendant. When she got dolled up, oh, my god. Gorgeous","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia600907.us.archive.org\/17\/items\/MSNBCW_20190303_050000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber\/MSNBCW_20190303_050000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20190303_050000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}