Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell

Democrats around the country, including people like cory booker that National Democratic attention in this case seems to have certainly didnt hurt. It may have helped. Were going to be continuing discussion of this Washington Post breaking news story tonight. We have robert costa, the coauthor of that piece joining us this hour with the latest on what theyre learning about the president being a subject of the investigation. And President Trump actually thinking thats pretty great, that hes just a subject instead of target. Any other president of the United States being told youre the subject of a prosecutors investigation would just be horrified that it had come to that. You cant i feel a little embarrassed admitting this, but you cant really help thinking its strategic. Tell him he is the subject. He likes being the subject. Were going discuss with some people who have experience in this just how often that occurs, that there is a little bit of shading of it when theyre just on the verge of switching you into target. Youre still a subject. But well get into it. All right, thanks, lawrence. Thanks, rachel. Well, as i said, the president of the United States is now officially a subject of special prosecutor Robert Muellers investigation, according to a breaking news report tonight in the Washington Post. One of the authors of that report will join news a moment, robert costa. Your status in a federal criminal investigation is often clarified by your lawyers when investigators want to question you, as we know Robert Mueller has been seeking to President Trump for months now. And there are three possible status levels for someone prosecutors want to interview. They are witness, subject, and target. Witness is the least dangerous status. Target is the most dangerous status. Target is exactly what it sounds like. Witness means you have something useful to say, but are not implicated in a crime. Youre the driver for a limo service and you drove o. J. Simpson to the airport at a particular time. And its very important to the investigators to know exactly what time you picked up o. J. Thats all they want to know. They are not investigating anything about you, the driver. They just want to know what time you picked up o. J. Thats the most innocent status, witness. Subject is the middle status. Subject is more than a witness. Subject is someone whose conduct is being investigated, but at this time is not apparently guilty of a crime. But subject is a very dangerous status because when subjects go in to testify under oath, they sometimes become targets. Because they end up giving prosecutors the kind of information that changes their status from subject to target. They could also instantly become targets of perjury investigations if they dont tell the truth under oath. So you dont ever want to hear that you are a subject of an investigation because subjects can always become targets. Which is the only thing worse than being a subject. Targets then usually become accused defendants. And so far in Robert Muellers investigation, that usually means they plead guilty. The Washington Post is reporting tonight in private negotiations in early march about a possible president ial interview mueller described trump as a subject of his investigation into russias interference in the 2016 election. The Washington Post tonight contains other news that could be much more damaging to the trump presidency. It is this. The special counsel also told trumps lawyers that he is preparing a report about the president s actions while in office and potential obstruction of justice, according to two people with knowledge of the conversations. If the special prosecutor believes that President Trump committed obstruction of justice in the presidency, he might decide that the best way to deal with that is to leave it to congress to consider as a possible cause for impeachment and the way special prosecutors deliver their findings to congress for impeachment is through a written report. The Washington Post has more. Muellers investigators have indicated to the president s legal team they are considering writing reports on their findings in stages with the first report focused on the obstruction issue, according to two people briefed on the discussions. Under special counsel regulations, mueller is required to report his conclusions confidentially to Deputy Attorney general rod j. Rosenstein who has the authority to decide whether to release the information publicly. They said they want to write a report on this to answer the publics questions, and they need the president s interview as the last step. One person familiar with the discussions said of muellers team leading off our discussion now by phone is one of the reporters who broke that story tonight, robert costa, National Political reporter for the Washington Post and an msnbc political analyst. Robert, youre also reporting in this that the president s reaction to the news that he is a subject of the investigation is that he is relieved. That is correct, lawrence. And good to be with you. You laid it out very accurately at the beginning of your program. The president is relieved, were told by our sources that he is a subject. But he is still a subject. And this has become a point of disagreement among his advisers and lawyers. Some are saying, including the president , because he is only a subject, he would like to engage with the mueller team and sit for an interview. But others are telling him this is a very risky situation legally. You should not sit down with the Mueller Investigation if you are a subject, as mueller told trumps lawyers in early march. And robert, your reporting on how this divides within the legal team. Who is advocating submit to the interview, and who has been advocating do not submit to the interview . Generally speak, based in our reporting with Carol Leonnig, my colleague, we learned that ty cobb has been supportive of the idea of sitting down with mueller. He is a veteran washington lawyer. His perspective based on our reporting is one shared by the president. That if he sits down with mueller and his investigators, he will maybe be able to conclude this probe and bring it to a quicker end. But then john dowd, the president s recently departed russia attorney, hes also a veteran washington lawyer. He has worked and interacted with Robert Mueller for a long time. He has been telling the president do not put yourself at legal risk. You are a subject. Remain a subject. If mueller wants to move forward, its his decision not for you to have to answer questions sitting down in a room. Lawyers like dowd and others have seen subjects move to targets as a result of doing these kinds of interviews. And that could be part of his advice perspective. But also, robert, i really want to emphasize the written report that youre talking about in your reporting tonight. And it indicates that the first report that the special prosecutor wants to issue is a report about Donald Trumps conduct in the presidency concerning the possibility of obstruction of justice. That is correct. It was difficult as reporter, lawrence, to really figure out how to balance all the news we have discovered over the past week. Because this report is a major piece of news. Yes, the way mueller is phrasing things to trumps lawyers is important, and we need to take note of it. At the same time we have nailed down that the mueller team is working on different tracks. Theyre work on the russia investigation in terms of russian interference. But they also are working on a specific report they would like to come out with in june or july of this year that has different conclusions about the president s conduct, his behavior while in office, looking at key decisions like the firing of former fbi director james comey. And he believes that he has to figure out the president s intent. And thats the missing piece. They know about the action. They have the documents. But they want the figure out did the president have a criminal intent, a different kind of intent . Theyre not sure within the Mueller Investigation. And thats what theyre trying to get him to sit down. This is all part of a negotiation between these two sides. Robert costa, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this breaking news. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Now joining the discussion, chuck rosenberg, former senior fbi official and former u. S. Attorney. He is an msnbc contributor. Ron klain is with us, former chief of staff to Vice President s joe biden and al gore and senior aid to president obama. He is also former chief counsel and chief of staff to attorney general janet reno. Chuck rosenberg, i want to go to the last point that robert costa was talking about there, and that is the written report about obstruction of justice involving the president and that issue of intent that robert has emphasized to us on the phone as being part of this, of muellers objective now. Wouldnt that then suggest in the defense of donald trump that there is a strong argument to be made to not submit to the interview because it is through the interview that mueller would be able to establish intent, and without the interview, mueller doesnt have intent. Well, i wouldnt go so far as your second point, lawrence. There is lots of ways to establish intent. It is the hardest thing to establish. But it doesnt only come from a subject or targets own mouth. You can get it from other people. If mr. Trump told his chief of staff or one of his aides that he was going to fire jim comey, to kill the russia investigation, essentially the same thing he told lester holt, well, thats evidence of intent. So there is lots of ways to prove it. There are ways to infer it. You can draw it out from circumstantial evidence. It doesnt need to come solely and literally from the mouth of the target. And ron klain, i want to get to this written report that mueller has told the president s lawyers they are writing, a written report concerning the obstruction of justice issue. And that sounds to me like a report that is being written for congress. Yeah. I doubt theyre taking the time to write a report that just says the words Nothing Happened here. If theyre working on this report, its because they believe they have assembled evidence that the president engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct justice in the investigation, perhaps of general flynn and others involved in the white house and the campaign. Now that report would first go to the Deputy Attorney general who theoretically has the power to keep it confidential. But its inconceivable in this environment that if they wrote up a report, if mueller writes a report saying he believes donald trump obstructed justice, there is a reason donald trump obstructed justice, that that would simply go into the Deputy Attorney generals file drawer and never see the light of day. So i think ultimately that report will find its way to congress and will be the basis for some congressional review of his behavior. Lets listen. We just heard from robert costa, who is the coauthor of this report tonight with Carol Leonnig. Lets listen what Carol Leonnig told rachel in last hour about john dowd, the criminal defense lawyer who just left the trump team. John dowd, according to Close Friends of the president , was counseling the president that he should absolutely not do the interview, all caps. Do not do the interview with bob muellers team. And of course, chuck rosenberg, the flaw in that approach is if you dont do the interview, you have then submitted the president to the possibility of being subpoenaed to testify under oath under what are much more strenuous circumstances. Thats right, lawrence. This is an act, not a science. And so we shouldnt be surprised that Defense Attorneys take a different view of whether or not the president should sit down voluntarily with the mueller team. That said, youre right. He could still be compelled in theory. But the u. S. Attorneys manual, the guidelines for federal prosecutors, and i was one for a long time, also instructs federal prosecutors that they do not normally subpoena a target to a federal grand jury. So there are some limitations there. But the mueller team has options, they absolutely have options. Ron klain, going back to the written report, it strikes me as something that if Robert Mueller has his staff working on that written report, handy is working in close coordination and the supervision of Rod Rosenstein, that Rod Rosenstein has in effect preauthorized the written report reserving the right to decide when he finally reads it in its entirely whether or not to release it. I think thats right, lawrence. As i said before, i think there is zero percent chance that a report like this gets written and it doesnt see the light of day. And i also agree with your earlier point. I mean, its an interesting little twist here. Chuck is certainly right that the u. S. Attorneys manual says you dont bring targets of investigations before the grand jury, but of course as we just learned, donald trump is a subject, not a target yet. And so that could be the basis to say if you wont agree to this interview, he will have to appear before the grand jury without the benefit of his crack legal team. And so, look, i think that the water is rising here for president. And i think the biggest point is what you said at the outset. The idea that donald trump thinks its some kind of vindication that he is not a target, that he is the first president in our history that is the subject of a federal criminal probe related to foreign tampering in our elections is disgraceful, and there is going to be a comeuppance for that. Chuck rosenberg and ron klain, thank you for guiding us through the legalisms of tonights breaking news. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, the president wants the American Military to do the impossible, and its impossible because it is illegal and it has been illegal since 1878. And if you try to hurt the stock price of a company by knowingly lying about the Company Publicly and repeatedly, that is called stock fraud. What is it called when the president of the United States does it . Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens brown paper packages tied up with strings these are a few of my favorite things we are the tv doctors of america, and we may not know much about medicine, but we know a lot about drama. We also know that you can avoid drama by getting an annual checkup. So go, know, and take control of your health. It could save your life. Cigna. Together, all the way. It could save your life. So lets promote our spring travel deal on choicehotels. Com like this. Earn one free night when you stay just twice this spring. Allergies. Or, badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com thisreally passionate about i really want to help. I was on my way out of this life. There are patients out there that dont have a lot of time. Finally, it was like the sun rose again and i was going to start fighting back now. When those patients come to me and say, you saved my life. My life was saved by a two week old targeted therapy drug. Thats what really drives me to to save lives. As we all know, President Trumps problem is that he watches too much tv. Well, okay. Thats just one of his problems. His other problems include the inability to read books and the inability to listen to anybody not speaking on fox news. And it seems now the only input that moves the president is television. And unfortunately, he is not watching the right television. If he spent a few hours with ken burns vietnam documentary, he would have a better grasp of the american governments and the American Militarys history of overestimating its capacities and wasting american lives in hopeless faraway wars. And if he just watched four minutes, four minutes of the nbc drama the west wing now available on netflix, specifically the first four minutes of the Season Finale of season 3 of the west wing, President Trump would hear these words written by aaron sorkin and spoken to the fictional president played by martin sheen to talk him out of a bad idea. Quote, the posse comitatus act of 1878 prohibits the military from civilian law enforcement. Because donald trump does not know that, today he said this until we can have a wall and proper security, were going to be guarding our border with the military. Thats a big step. We really havent done that before, certainly not very much before. So what we are preparing for the military to secure our border between mexico and the United States. We have a meeting on it in a little while with general mattis and everybody. And i think that its something that we have to do. And surely at the meeting with defense secretary james mattis the president learned that it is against the law for the American Military to arrest or detain anyone on american soil. And i mean anyone. That includes anyone they see run across the border into the United States. If the American Military sees someone run across the border into the United States, the only thing they are legally empowered to do is what youre empowered to do, call Border Patrol agents and tell them what they saw and where they saw it and wish the National Democratic<\/a> attention in this case seems to have certainly didnt hurt. It may have helped. Were going to be continuing discussion of this Washington Post<\/a> breaking news story tonight. We have robert costa, the coauthor of that piece joining us this hour with the latest on what theyre learning about the president being a subject of the investigation. And President Trump<\/a> actually thinking thats pretty great, that hes just a subject instead of target. Any other president of the United States<\/a> being told youre the subject of a prosecutors investigation would just be horrified that it had come to that. You cant i feel a little embarrassed admitting this, but you cant really help thinking its strategic. Tell him he is the subject. He likes being the subject. Were going discuss with some people who have experience in this just how often that occurs, that there is a little bit of shading of it when theyre just on the verge of switching you into target. Youre still a subject. But well get into it. All right, thanks, lawrence. Thanks, rachel. Well, as i said, the president of the United States<\/a> is now officially a subject of special prosecutor Robert Muellers<\/a> investigation, according to a breaking news report tonight in the Washington Post<\/a>. One of the authors of that report will join news a moment, robert costa. Your status in a federal criminal investigation is often clarified by your lawyers when investigators want to question you, as we know Robert Mueller<\/a> has been seeking to President Trump<\/a> for months now. And there are three possible status levels for someone prosecutors want to interview. They are witness, subject, and target. Witness is the least dangerous status. Target is the most dangerous status. Target is exactly what it sounds like. Witness means you have something useful to say, but are not implicated in a crime. Youre the driver for a limo service and you drove o. J. Simpson to the airport at a particular time. And its very important to the investigators to know exactly what time you picked up o. J. Thats all they want to know. They are not investigating anything about you, the driver. They just want to know what time you picked up o. J. Thats the most innocent status, witness. Subject is the middle status. Subject is more than a witness. Subject is someone whose conduct is being investigated, but at this time is not apparently guilty of a crime. But subject is a very dangerous status because when subjects go in to testify under oath, they sometimes become targets. Because they end up giving prosecutors the kind of information that changes their status from subject to target. They could also instantly become targets of perjury investigations if they dont tell the truth under oath. So you dont ever want to hear that you are a subject of an investigation because subjects can always become targets. Which is the only thing worse than being a subject. Targets then usually become accused defendants. And so far in Robert Muellers<\/a> investigation, that usually means they plead guilty. The Washington Post<\/a> is reporting tonight in private negotiations in early march about a possible president ial interview mueller described trump as a subject of his investigation into russias interference in the 2016 election. The Washington Post<\/a> tonight contains other news that could be much more damaging to the trump presidency. It is this. The special counsel also told trumps lawyers that he is preparing a report about the president s actions while in office and potential obstruction of justice, according to two people with knowledge of the conversations. If the special prosecutor believes that President Trump<\/a> committed obstruction of justice in the presidency, he might decide that the best way to deal with that is to leave it to congress to consider as a possible cause for impeachment and the way special prosecutors deliver their findings to congress for impeachment is through a written report. The Washington Post<\/a> has more. Muellers investigators have indicated to the president s legal team they are considering writing reports on their findings in stages with the first report focused on the obstruction issue, according to two people briefed on the discussions. Under special counsel regulations, mueller is required to report his conclusions confidentially to Deputy Attorney<\/a> general rod j. Rosenstein who has the authority to decide whether to release the information publicly. They said they want to write a report on this to answer the publics questions, and they need the president s interview as the last step. One person familiar with the discussions said of muellers team leading off our discussion now by phone is one of the reporters who broke that story tonight, robert costa, National Political<\/a> reporter for the Washington Post<\/a> and an msnbc political analyst. Robert, youre also reporting in this that the president s reaction to the news that he is a subject of the investigation is that he is relieved. That is correct, lawrence. And good to be with you. You laid it out very accurately at the beginning of your program. The president is relieved, were told by our sources that he is a subject. But he is still a subject. And this has become a point of disagreement among his advisers and lawyers. Some are saying, including the president , because he is only a subject, he would like to engage with the mueller team and sit for an interview. But others are telling him this is a very risky situation legally. You should not sit down with the Mueller Investigation<\/a> if you are a subject, as mueller told trumps lawyers in early march. And robert, your reporting on how this divides within the legal team. Who is advocating submit to the interview, and who has been advocating do not submit to the interview . Generally speak, based in our reporting with Carol Leonnig<\/a>, my colleague, we learned that ty cobb has been supportive of the idea of sitting down with mueller. He is a veteran washington lawyer. His perspective based on our reporting is one shared by the president. That if he sits down with mueller and his investigators, he will maybe be able to conclude this probe and bring it to a quicker end. But then john dowd, the president s recently departed russia attorney, hes also a veteran washington lawyer. He has worked and interacted with Robert Mueller<\/a> for a long time. He has been telling the president do not put yourself at legal risk. You are a subject. Remain a subject. If mueller wants to move forward, its his decision not for you to have to answer questions sitting down in a room. Lawyers like dowd and others have seen subjects move to targets as a result of doing these kinds of interviews. And that could be part of his advice perspective. But also, robert, i really want to emphasize the written report that youre talking about in your reporting tonight. And it indicates that the first report that the special prosecutor wants to issue is a report about Donald Trumps<\/a> conduct in the presidency concerning the possibility of obstruction of justice. That is correct. It was difficult as reporter, lawrence, to really figure out how to balance all the news we have discovered over the past week. Because this report is a major piece of news. Yes, the way mueller is phrasing things to trumps lawyers is important, and we need to take note of it. At the same time we have nailed down that the mueller team is working on different tracks. Theyre work on the russia investigation in terms of russian interference. But they also are working on a specific report they would like to come out with in june or july of this year that has different conclusions about the president s conduct, his behavior while in office, looking at key decisions like the firing of former fbi director james comey. And he believes that he has to figure out the president s intent. And thats the missing piece. They know about the action. They have the documents. But they want the figure out did the president have a criminal intent, a different kind of intent . Theyre not sure within the Mueller Investigation<\/a>. And thats what theyre trying to get him to sit down. This is all part of a negotiation between these two sides. Robert costa, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this breaking news. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Now joining the discussion, chuck rosenberg, former senior fbi official and former u. S. Attorney. He is an msnbc contributor. Ron klain is with us, former chief of staff to Vice President<\/a> s joe biden and al gore and senior aid to president obama. He is also former chief counsel and chief of staff to attorney general janet reno. Chuck rosenberg, i want to go to the last point that robert costa was talking about there, and that is the written report about obstruction of justice involving the president and that issue of intent that robert has emphasized to us on the phone as being part of this, of muellers objective now. Wouldnt that then suggest in the defense of donald trump that there is a strong argument to be made to not submit to the interview because it is through the interview that mueller would be able to establish intent, and without the interview, mueller doesnt have intent. Well, i wouldnt go so far as your second point, lawrence. There is lots of ways to establish intent. It is the hardest thing to establish. But it doesnt only come from a subject or targets own mouth. You can get it from other people. If mr. Trump told his chief of staff or one of his aides that he was going to fire jim comey, to kill the russia investigation, essentially the same thing he told lester holt, well, thats evidence of intent. So there is lots of ways to prove it. There are ways to infer it. You can draw it out from circumstantial evidence. It doesnt need to come solely and literally from the mouth of the target. And ron klain, i want to get to this written report that mueller has told the president s lawyers they are writing, a written report concerning the obstruction of justice issue. And that sounds to me like a report that is being written for congress. Yeah. I doubt theyre taking the time to write a report that just says the words Nothing Happened<\/a> here. If theyre working on this report, its because they believe they have assembled evidence that the president engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct justice in the investigation, perhaps of general flynn and others involved in the white house and the campaign. Now that report would first go to the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general who theoretically has the power to keep it confidential. But its inconceivable in this environment that if they wrote up a report, if mueller writes a report saying he believes donald trump obstructed justice, there is a reason donald trump obstructed justice, that that would simply go into the Deputy Attorney<\/a> generals file drawer and never see the light of day. So i think ultimately that report will find its way to congress and will be the basis for some congressional review of his behavior. Lets listen. We just heard from robert costa, who is the coauthor of this report tonight with Carol Leonnig<\/a>. Lets listen what Carol Leonnig<\/a> told rachel in last hour about john dowd, the criminal defense lawyer who just left the trump team. John dowd, according to Close Friends<\/a> of the president , was counseling the president that he should absolutely not do the interview, all caps. Do not do the interview with bob muellers team. And of course, chuck rosenberg, the flaw in that approach is if you dont do the interview, you have then submitted the president to the possibility of being subpoenaed to testify under oath under what are much more strenuous circumstances. Thats right, lawrence. This is an act, not a science. And so we shouldnt be surprised that Defense Attorneys<\/a> take a different view of whether or not the president should sit down voluntarily with the mueller team. That said, youre right. He could still be compelled in theory. But the u. S. Attorneys manual, the guidelines for federal prosecutors, and i was one for a long time, also instructs federal prosecutors that they do not normally subpoena a target to a federal grand jury. So there are some limitations there. But the mueller team has options, they absolutely have options. Ron klain, going back to the written report, it strikes me as something that if Robert Mueller<\/a> has his staff working on that written report, handy is working in close coordination and the supervision of Rod Rosenstein<\/a>, that Rod Rosenstein<\/a> has in effect preauthorized the written report reserving the right to decide when he finally reads it in its entirely whether or not to release it. I think thats right, lawrence. As i said before, i think there is zero percent chance that a report like this gets written and it doesnt see the light of day. And i also agree with your earlier point. I mean, its an interesting little twist here. Chuck is certainly right that the u. S. Attorneys manual says you dont bring targets of investigations before the grand jury, but of course as we just learned, donald trump is a subject, not a target yet. And so that could be the basis to say if you wont agree to this interview, he will have to appear before the grand jury without the benefit of his crack legal team. And so, look, i think that the water is rising here for president. And i think the biggest point is what you said at the outset. The idea that donald trump thinks its some kind of vindication that he is not a target, that he is the first president in our history that is the subject of a federal criminal probe related to foreign tampering in our elections is disgraceful, and there is going to be a comeuppance for that. Chuck rosenberg and ron klain, thank you for guiding us through the legalisms of tonights breaking news. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, the president wants the American Military<\/a> to do the impossible, and its impossible because it is illegal and it has been illegal since 1878. And if you try to hurt the stock price of a company by knowingly lying about the Company Publicly<\/a> and repeatedly, that is called stock fraud. What is it called when the president of the United States<\/a> does it . Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens brown paper packages tied up with strings these are a few of my favorite things we are the tv doctors of america, and we may not know much about medicine, but we know a lot about drama. We also know that you can avoid drama by getting an annual checkup. So go, know, and take control of your health. It could save your life. Cigna. Together, all the way. It could save your life. So lets promote our spring travel deal on choicehotels. Com like this. Earn one free night when you stay just twice this spring. Allergies. Or, badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com thisreally passionate about i really want to help. I was on my way out of this life. There are patients out there that dont have a lot of time. Finally, it was like the sun rose again and i was going to start fighting back now. When those patients come to me and say, you saved my life. My life was saved by a two week old targeted therapy drug. Thats what really drives me to to save lives. As we all know, President Trump<\/a>s problem is that he watches too much tv. Well, okay. Thats just one of his problems. His other problems include the inability to read books and the inability to listen to anybody not speaking on fox news. And it seems now the only input that moves the president is television. And unfortunately, he is not watching the right television. If he spent a few hours with ken burns vietnam documentary, he would have a better grasp of the american governments and the American Military<\/a>s history of overestimating its capacities and wasting american lives in hopeless faraway wars. And if he just watched four minutes, four minutes of the nbc drama the west wing now available on netflix, specifically the first four minutes of the Season Finale<\/a> of season 3 of the west wing, President Trump<\/a> would hear these words written by aaron sorkin and spoken to the fictional president played by martin sheen to talk him out of a bad idea. Quote, the posse comitatus act of 1878 prohibits the military from civilian law enforcement. Because donald trump does not know that, today he said this until we can have a wall and proper security, were going to be guarding our border with the military. Thats a big step. We really havent done that before, certainly not very much before. So what we are preparing for the military to secure our border between mexico and the United States<\/a>. We have a meeting on it in a little while with general mattis and everybody. And i think that its something that we have to do. And surely at the meeting with defense secretary james mattis the president learned that it is against the law for the American Military<\/a> to arrest or detain anyone on american soil. And i mean anyone. That includes anyone they see run across the border into the United States<\/a>. If the American Military<\/a> sees someone run across the border into the United States<\/a>, the only thing they are legally empowered to do is what youre empowered to do, call Border Patrol<\/a> agents and tell them what they saw and where they saw it and wish the Border Patrol<\/a> agents luck in catching up with whoever they saw running across the border. And that is actually a role that the American Military<\/a> has played on our southern border occasionally. It has never been very effective. Imagine Donald Trumps<\/a> rage when he discovered he lives in a country where the military is not allowed to arrest anyone. There are plenty of little countries around the world where the military acts as the local police, including places where they dont even have local police. The president s Statement Today<\/a> reportedly took military officials by surprise. They were also taken by surprise by the president saying this. As far as syria is concerned, our primary mission in terms of that was getting rid of isis. Weve almost completed that task, and well be making a decision very quickly. I want to get out. I want to bring our troops back home. I want to start rebuilding our nation. Think of it. 7 trillion over a 17year period, we have nothing, nothing, except death and destruction. Its a horrible thing. So its time. Its time. Its time. He wants to get out. You will recall donald trump, the candidate during the Campaign Said<\/a> the very worst thing you could possibly do is what he just did, the very worst thing you could possibly do is say that you want the withdraw from military action. We should have never ended it the way they ended it. By ending it the way he ended it, and he got everybody out, and he let them know when and were leaving, and they just sat back. They just sat back and they went in. And ill tell you what. Barack obama, number one, is incompetent. And while he was at it today, the president continued to commit stock fraud that is to tell lies about a publicly traded company with the expressed intent of affecting the stock price. The post office is losing billions of dollars, and the taxpayers are paying for that money because it delivers packages for amazon at a very below cost. And thats not fair to the United States<\/a>. Its not fair to our taxpayers. And amazon has the money to pay the fair rate at the post office, which would be much more than theyre paying right now. So amazon is going to have to pay much more money to the post office. There is no doubt about that. And of course amazon pays the same Package Delivery<\/a> rate of every other company that g all products sold by trump family members that are delivered through the mail. And the post office makes a profit on its Delivery Business<\/a> with amazon. The post office makes a profit on amazon. Amazon is actually helping to subsidize the publics use of the postal service. And amazon pays state sales taxes in every state that has sales taxes, Something Else<\/a> donald trump has been lying about for days now. And apparently in the process, helping to drive the amazon stock price down. The founder and biggest owner of amazon, jeff bezos is of course the own over the Washington Post<\/a>, the newspaper that reports on donald trump accurately, and therefore is an unbearable torture for donald trump to be subjected to. Joining us now is neera tanden the president of the center for american progress, and ron klain is still with. Feel free to pick any one of those from the menu of todays rants by the president to his now calling himself his own best adviser, given that many of the advisers have left the building. The one i would really point so and i think well see more of it is his language around immigration and just sort of made up fantasy that he can call the military. But call on the military to enforce the border. But i do think this goes to a key issue that i think he recognizes that the fact that a Republican Congress<\/a> did not pay for the wall means that one of his core promises to his base is never going to happen. And so hes going to talk about other plans. He is going to threaten mexico to pay for the wall. He is going to continually talk about other things. At the end of the day, i think its really important that democrats remind trump better that this core promise he made could not even be delivered on when the republicans control the other side of pennsylvania avenue. It means it will never happen, and that he lied to them like he lied on so many other issues. And ron klain, he combines that with a lie about what happened in the budget bill where there was a bill and a half dollars for the southern border, but none of it was for the construction of new trump wall. All of it was for the maintenance and repair of existing fencing. Yeah. And you asked you pointed to stock fraud, and you asked what do we call it when the president of the United States<\/a> lies about a major u. S. Corporation to try to drive its stock price down. And the answer to that in the trump era is we call it tuesday. Because you know, thats what happened on monday. And it will probably happen again tomorrow on wednesday. I mean, the president believes that its his right, his opportunity to use his office to reward his friends with corrupt benefits and to punish his political enemies with threats and intimidation. And so i hope that some point in time the president takes a few hours, fires up netflix, watches the west wing, lawrence, but also watches the movie the post because i think he see theres what happens when the president tries to bully the Washington Post<\/a>. I dont want to ruin it for him, but it has a very bad ending for president. The post could written by josh singer, a west wing graduating staff graduate. We squeeze in as many west wing promos as we can here. There you go. Lets listen to what donald trump had to say today about just how tough he has been on russia. Nobody has been tougher on russia than i have. And you can and i know youre nodding yes. Because everyone agrees. With that being said, i think i could have a very Good Relationship<\/a> with president putin, i think. Its possible i wont. And you will know about it, believe me. This room will know about it before i know about it. Its a real possibility that i could have a Good Relationship<\/a>. And remember this. Getting along with russia is a good thing. So i think i could have a very Good Relationship<\/a> with russia and with president putin. And if i did, that would be a great thing. And there is also a great possibility that that wont happen. Who knows. So neera, he is saying he could have a great relationship with Vladimir Putin<\/a> and nobodys been tougher on russia than i have. I mean, it is okay to just cackle at this and laugh out loud . You can. Sure you can. At the ridiculousness of the i mean, you see the lunacy right there. Just to point out the president just rolls out that he might exit syria. Do you know who would love for us to exit syria . Russia. Because russia is on the other side of us on syria. I mean, i know its a little bit of an awkward thing to point out, but russia literally poisoned british people on british soil just a few weeks ago, and he is joking around about how he may get along well with russia. Which is just a ludicrous statement. Because obviously we have never had a president who has so fraternized, admired, been in a fan club of a country that is essentially our chief adversary today, and has obviously wounded us by infecting our elections. And neera, we might some day if the kremlin decides to tell us discover what Vladimir Putin<\/a> said to donald trump about syria on their in their recent phone call. Yes. Because he wont tell us. But they certainly will. They might. Ron klain, neera tanden, thank you both for joining us. Appreciate it. Thanks, lawrence. Thanks. Up next, its the corruption stupid. That is the extraordinary coffer of new York Magazine<\/a>. Its cover story on the ongoing corrupt practices of donald trump and the trump administration, which new York Magazine<\/a> has cataloged in multipage detail. The author of that cover story, Jonathan Chait<\/a> will join us. Hais not always easy. Severe plaque psoriasis its a longdistance run and you have the determination to keep going. Humira has a proven track record of being prescribed for over ten years. Its the 1 prescribed biologic by dermatologists. More than 250,000 patients have chosen humira to fight their psoriasis. And theyre not backing down. For most patients clearer skin is the proof. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems. Serious allergic reactions and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Join over 250,000 people who have chosen humira. Ask your dermatologist about humira go. A car you can command when does that require mindcontrol . No. Just some mindblowing engineers from the Ford Motor Company<\/a> and pivotal who developed fordpass, allowing you to reach out to your car from wherever you are to check your fuel level, unlock your doors and start your engine. So when youre ready to go, your car is, too. Magic cant make Digital Transformation<\/a> happen. But we can. Thats the power of pivotal, part of dell technologies. With pg e in the sierras. And im an arborist since the onset of the drought, more than 129 Million Trees<\/a> have died in california. Pg e prunes and removes over a Million Trees<\/a> every year to ensure that hazardous trees cant impact power lines. And since the onset of the drought weve doubled our efforts. I grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly its heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. What guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. Lost among the many strange things President Trump<\/a> tweeted and said today was this insight into what he thinks constitutes a conflict of interest. Mr. Trump, speaking about economy, about Economic Cooperation<\/a> with my country, latvia, what is your message for investors in latvia . And what is your opinion the investment in latvia . I think all three would be great places to invest. Stable governments, incredible people, hardworking, industrious people. I think they would be great places to invest. I would have no problem with it. Although i think as president of the United States<\/a>, they would call that a slight conflict of interest, perhaps. You might be hearing from these people. Any other president of the United States<\/a> when asked about the Investment Climate<\/a> in another country would understand that that question was asked generally, as a macroeconomic question. Only donald trump would take it as a microeconomic question about his own business investing in latvia. And yes, it is a conflict of interest for the president of the United States<\/a> to knowingly personally invest in any foreign country. Of course donald trump thinks latvia is a good place for him to invest. As the guardian reported last week, he unsuccessfully tried to build there back in 2011. Both the latvian governments Anticorruption Bureau<\/a> and the fbi eventually looked into those plans. This weeks arresting new York Magazine<\/a> cover says its the corruption, stupid why trumps selfdealing is his biggest liability. The magazine lifts trumps many conflicts including operating a hotel in washington, d. C. Where millions of dollars of profits have already been delivered directly to President Trump<\/a> from many lobbyists and foreign governments paying to use that hotel, which has been able to raise its rates dramatically during the trump presidency. Jonathan chait, the author of the new York Magazine<\/a> cover story says Robert Mueller<\/a> and Stormy Daniels<\/a> are unlikely to separate trump from his base as effectively as trump himself can do by breaking the deal that he made with his voters. Trumps core proposition to the public was a business deal. If he became president , he would work to make them rich. Jonathan chait argues that the best Campaign Tactic<\/a> for democrats is to, quote, demonstrate that trump is failing to uphold his end of the deal. After all, the students at Trump University<\/a> once constituted some of the biggest trump fans in america, until they realized trump had conned them. Then they sued to get their money back. Jonathan chait, the author of the new York Magazine<\/a> cover story its the corruption, stupid will join us next. You wont see these folks at the post office they have businesses to run they have passions to pursue how do they avoid trips to the post office . Stamps. Com mail letters ship packages all the Amazing Services<\/a> of the post office right on your computer get a 4 week trial plus 100 in extras including postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again go to stamps. Com tv and never go to you might be missing something. Y healthy. Your eyes. Thats why theres ocuvite. Ocuvite helps replenish nutrients your eyes can lose as you age. It has lutein, zeaxanthin and omega3. Ocuvite. Be good to your eyes. My whole life, ive been greedy, greedy, greedy. I grabbed all the money i can get. Im so greedy. But now i want to be greedy for the United States<\/a>. I want to grab all that money. Im going to be greedy for the United States<\/a>. Joining our discussion now, Jonathan Chait<\/a>, columnist for new York Magazine<\/a>, author of the cover story its the corruption, stupid. And jonathan, it is quite a catalog. Yeah. And you remind us of what would be the bigger story every day, every night of this presidency were it not being crowded out by Stormy Daniels<\/a> prosecutor and legislative stories. There is donald trump saying something you quote at the beginning of your piece about bragging about how greedy he is as a selling point to voters. Well, thats exactly right. You know, he took this image that everyone had of him from his Television Show<\/a> and his role in popular culture, and he kind of flipped it around. He said this mean, nasty businessman guy, im going to stop being that guy, and im going to start being him working for you. Im going to take this total uturn in my career once you elect me. That was a really important promise that he made. He wasnt going around saying im going to be the same guy i always was. Im going to keep rung my business. Im going make myself richer. Im going to make my kids rich. No, he said he was really going to change. The fact that he hasnt changed, the fact that he is still the same donald trump running the same trump business series a real problem i think for those people who trusted him. And jonathan, whenever youre reading an analysis that says, you know, this is the way Current Trump<\/a> voters will turn on him, its always you always kind of feel like oh, yeah, sure. Theyre not going to he is still going to be best racist they ever voted for. He is still going the hate everyone south of the border. And share those feelings. But when you got to the Trump University<\/a> example, i have to say that was a very convincing example. Because someone enrolling in Trump University<\/a> had to be kind of a super trump fan, like a trump super delegate in effect. And those people turned on donald trump. Yeah, thats exactly right. I think thats a pretty good metaphor for how trump has conned his fans. And its a good metaphor for his critics to use and to think about how theyre going to go about separating him. But i also think that its not just a matter of scandals and corruption, but this is i think a way of talking about trump that ties in his legislative agenda, right . Because its about making himself rich. Its about making his family and his friends rich. And thats something he is not only doing through his behavior and the way he is running his business, its a way his cabinet is behaving, the way that theyre helping themselves to the public till constantly across the government. And its what theyre doing in congress, the tax bills theyre voting on, the health care bills, its the regulation. Its all about protecting their own economic interests. Yeah. So your recommendation to democrats campaigning, as i read it in your article, is forget about Stormy Daniels<\/a>. The voters already knew thats trumps kind of way of behaving. Forget about Robert Muellers<\/a> investigation. What will happen will happen. And its too complicated to explain at a campaign rally. But you say democrats should be saying things like why is trump giving rich people in corporations a huge tax cut. Why has he been threatening to take away your health insurance. Why is he letting wall street and big oil write their own rules . Yeah, and i think these are very simple points to understand. And i think they connect in a very intuitive way with the small scale bits of corruption that in normal administrations are huge stories. What was the story about the pentagon toilet seat that cost 500 or 900, or whatever it was from the 80s. People still talk that. When the secretary of interior spends thousands and thousands of dollars on doors, when ben carson orders a 31,000 dining set for hud, these are very accessible, easy to understand instances that make people understand who the people in government are really looking out for. And you make a point about the trump cabinet and the kind of corruption thats been occurring there. You have scott pruitt saying that he paid 50 a night to stay in a lobbyists condo. And by the way, we dont know that he paid that we havent seen the canceled checks that say he actually even did pay the 50. But that would be a gift. That would be an illegal gift, according to any reasonable interpretation of it. Because that was worth a lot more. But you say in here that donald trump has exactly the people he wants. He wants people who can stomach the kind of sleaze in business and in his own business dealings while in the white house that donald trump has been up to. He doesnt want anybody coming in here with high ethical standards. Thats right. And i think thats the thing you actually have to credit him for being good at. He knows how to talk to people and to read people and find anyone who is really going to put up a moral fuss about his behavior. He drives them away right away. He knows how to sift people 80 and attract people who are around him for the for what trump considers the wrong reasons or what trump considers the right reasons and we would say is the wrong reasons. He real slay magnet for greed and venality. And David Cay Johnston<\/a> also has an accompanying piece to yourself listing almost dollar for dollar everything that has been happening in terms of trump income during the presidency with a heavy focus on that hotel in washington. Yeah. The hotel in washington is a big deal. The International Travel<\/a> is a big deal. And people sometimes forget that trump made specific promises during the campaign about how he was going to clean all this stuff up. Drain the swamp wasnt just a line. He actually had a program how he was going get the lobbyists out of government. He was going have these Good Government<\/a> reforms. Not only has he not done anything like that, he has gone in the opposite direction, he has lobbyists crawling through the government. He is working hand in glove in a way that would have shamed previous president s. Jonathan, thanks very much for your reporting. Thanks for joining us tonight. Thank you. Up next, President Trump<\/a> is always accused of trying to change the subject when bad news is coming his way. Its called the wag the dog phenomenon. And that of course is in honor of Barry Levinsons<\/a> movie wag the dog about a president who was trying to hide from a sex scandal that broke out two weeks before an election. Barry levinson is going to join us with his perspective on what were seeing now. Weeds. Natures boomerang. At roundup\u00ae, we know they keep coming back. You never invited this stubborn little rascal to your patio. So, draw the line. One spray of roundup\u00ae max control 365 kills to the root and keeps weeds away for up to 12 months. Because patios should be for cooking out and kicking back. Draw the line with roundup\u00ae. Trusted for over forty years. Applebees to go. Order online and get 10 off 30. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. Order online and get 10 off 30. But im not standing still. And with godaddy, ive made my ideas real. I made my own way, now its time to make yours. Everything is working, working, just like it should the northern percussion massage. Not cool. Freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting . Now thats cool. Coolsculpting safely freezes and removes fat cells. With little or no downtime. And no surgery. Results and Patient Experience<\/a> may vary. Some rare side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort, and swelling. Ask your doctor if coolsculpting is right for you. And visit coolsculpting. Com today for your chance to win a free treatment. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Whats your response to Stormy Daniels<\/a> . The last words the president heard today as he left that press conference were Stormy Daniels<\/a> who the president is now suing in federal court for violating a confidentiality agreement that she signed two weeks before the president ial election. The film wag the dog by oscar winning director Barry Levinson<\/a> imagined a fictional president hit with a similar sex scandal two weeks before election day. And here is that president s campaign operative, Robert De Niro<\/a>, coming up with a scheme to distract the publics attention from the president s sex scandal. Dont worry about it. Its nothing new. During reagans administration, 240 marines killed in beirut. 24 hours later, we invade grenada. That was their m. O. Change the story, change the lead. Its not a new concept. When we touch down, well talk more about it. We cant afford a war. Were not going to have a war. Were going to have the appearance of a war. We cannot afford the appearance of a war. They would find out. The American People<\/a> . Exactly. Whos going to tell them . What did they find out about the gulf war . Joining us now, Barry Levinson<\/a> whose new film paterno is premiering saturday night on hbo. When you here Robert De Niro<\/a> that is the trump theory for how to deal with the news media. You just kept building stories and stories and distractions and get further away from where the actual subject was. Little did you know when you were doing wag the dog how easy it would actually be. Donald trump doesnt have to invent wars. He just does a tweet to insult somebody to change the subject. You can do that or you can lie all the time. Just relentlessly. Just lie about it. Ill say anything i want to say and that will be okay. If someone criticizes it, thats whats fake. But im real and thats fake. What does it feel like when a phrase like wag the dog takes on its old life. Its one of those phrases that in politics takes on its own life now. Its almost 20 years. By the way, i want to bridge donald trump into your new film about joe paterno which is about the big scandal at penn state and Jerry Sandusky<\/a> and what happened there. Here is donald trump campaigning in pittsburgh april 13th, 2016. He thought this was the thing to say there. I went to school in this state, right . We know that, right . So i know a lot about pennsylvania. And its great. Hows joe paterno . Are we going to bring that back, right . How about that whole how about that whole deal . Its unclear to me whether he knew that joe paterno had been dead for a few years or whether he was talking about the statue at penn state that had been removed. It really doesnt matter. Ill just they. How about that . He seemed to think that there were two side to what he thinks is the joe paterno story which is to say a child molestation story at penn state. His voters were on the side of joe paterno, which by the way we see was a very real thing in the movie at the time the scandal broke. Students at penn state really protesting any idea of getting rid of joe paterno. Well, because there was the emotional aspect of it, you know, to those students, he is like a joe pa. He was the father. He had been there forever. And the idea that he is now being fired was an emotional reaction of which things went completely haywire in one night. Then theres the rational part of what is paternos situation and what did he know, what should he have done, what didnt he do, which is more complex. The riot which is frightening, there is that emotional explosion in one night, which we depict in the film. Ive been wondering about the lives of matt lauer, charlie rose, harvey weinstein. That kind of happened to those in this story. This is the first movie after this era where weve seen all these lives collapse instantaneously. Completely different context. But i felt, so heres a moment backstage in the life of someone whose entire career is collapsing instantaneously. Yeah. And the situation is what would have happened if that first, you know, young boy who basically came forward and that wasnt basically covered up by the university and that would have been out and would have been done. There wouldnt have been other boys who would have been sexually molested and that would have been the end of it. But trying to cover it up and cover it up and eventually it exploded. Then the culpability of why didnt they do more. Where does paterno fit in that because hes the coach of the team. And what did he do or didnt do or could have done . Youre saying heres a man. It wasnt just a coach. He believed in education. He graduated 85 of his football players. So he believed in all of those good things and honorable and ethical things. And yet what happened, and thats it also reminds me of it also reminds me of republicans in congress in washington now who know or feel that they should maybe be standing up to donald trump, but have not. They say a Little Something<\/a> here and there. Thats what you see in the paterno records. Theres a moral obligation that he failed to meet under pressure. Were watching that happening every day in washington. Thats whats so terrible when you think about our congress. For them to stand by and not actively do something, i mean, look, you take watergate compared to now. There is republicans and democrats together in that committee that wanted the truth. You cant even get them to do that nowadays. Our entire system is literally coming apart and not doing what it needs to do and not doing the work they were put in there to take care of that they basically are not responding to something that is dangerous. Forget in terms of republican or democrat. Morally it is reprehensible. Thats tonights last word. Up next the president did not want american reporters to ask these are a few of my favorite things thats tonights last word. Up next the president did not want american reporters to ask any questions today in his press conference. It has been over a year since the president held an official news conference. Williams starts now. The breaking news were covering tonight comes from the Washington Post<\/a>. And its a big one. Muellers people have told trumps people the president is the subject of a criminal investigation, though not currently a target. Mueller is preparing a report about Donald Trumps<\/a> actions in office, and theres more. Two of the reporters on this story standing by to talk with us. That news dropping just hours after the first sentencing and prison time ordered in the Mueller Investigation<\/a>. And the president s comments today on russia and putin are now being viewed in a new light because of tonights reporting. As the 11th hour on a tuesday night gets under way. Good evening once again from our he","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia803103.us.archive.org\/10\/items\/MSNBCW_20180404_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell\/MSNBCW_20180404_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20180404_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}